? re: Women Headcovering & Abstaining from the Eucharist during Menses

BraveMommy · Oct 24, 2013

As a convert and a woman I remain confused these two issues:

The Orthodox priest I spoke with, also a convert but with years of Orthodox Theology training, tells me both were practiced but both are irrelevant now because they were practiced out of ignorance. My confusion comes from reading Orthodox books & Saints writings from the Church's bookstore where this priest is.

1. Headcovering: Orthodox Bible 1Cor. 11 & St. John Chrysostom's Homily on the chapter. His homily is lengthy and very detailed as to why it's the unchanging Will of God for God-fearing women in all times and in all parts of the world to cover her head with an opaque cloth in Church, during Prayer and when in the "market place".

2. Abstaining from the Eucharist during Menses: Exomologetarion A Manual of Confession: St. John the Faster Canon 17, St. Dionysios Canon2 & Canon 7 of Timothy plus St. Nikodemos the Hagiorite's interpretation of the canon.

Addressing both issues: Orthodox Christian Parenting Cultivating God's Creation in the section Instilling Modesty is Women Teach Your Daughters on page 232: Throughout ALL the centuries of the Church, women have taught their daughters to cover themselves and to abstain while on their cycle. who are we-in this current century-to decide that this is no longer necessary?

Anyway, what is right re: these issues for me to practice and for me to teach my daughters?

What do the Orthodox women here practice and why?

Thank you all who reply

buzuxi · Oct 24, 2013

BraveMommy said:
As a convert and a woman I remain confused these two issues:

The Orthodox priest I spoke with, also a convert but with years of Orthodox Theology training, tells me both were practiced but both are irrelevant now because they were practiced out of ignorance. My confusion comes from reading Orthodox books & Saints writings from the Church's bookstore where this priest is.

Click to expand...

Years of Orthodox theology training and that's the best he could do? Many women in Slavic churches wear head coverings and its least practiced among the greeks. Go to a ROCOR clergy to get an educated response, not the modernist shallow answer.

Addressing both issues: Orthodox Christian Parenting Cultivating God's Creation in the section Instilling Modesty is Women Teach Your Daughters on page 232: Throughout ALL the centuries of the Church, women have taught their daughters to cover themselves and to abstain while on their cycle. who are we-in this current century-to decide that this is no longer necessary?

Click to expand...

This is exactly how its practiced by my mom and sister. No consultation with a priest (which they wouldn't listen to anyhow). Not that any priest in this day and age would address this issue with a 10 footpole to begin with. Its just how its been done forever, my great grandmother passed it down to my grandma who passed it down to my mom who passed it down to my sister, etc. Its not because they can point to some priest who told them to do this, its just what they've always held for generations.

One of the Popes addressed this issue over a millennium ago saying that if its out of piety , then abstaining is good, but not good if its to avoid receiving communion, nor is it strictly forbidden if one is prepared and truly needs to receive. The practice of abstaining during menses was indeed strictly held in the Alexandrian tradition.

Kristos · Oct 24, 2013

Ditto - my wife follows both of these - piety/respect/tradition - no priest has ever told her to do it.

InnerPhyre · Oct 24, 2013

A woman can do both or either of these things out of piety. A woman cannot be scorned, judged, or condemned for choosing not to do one or both. Pope St. Gregory the Great said that women who wish to abstain during their menstrual cycle should not be pushed to receive, but neither should women who choose to commune during this time be stopped from doing so.

Dorothea · Oct 24, 2013

I agree with my brothers' posts above mine.

katherine2001 · Oct 24, 2013

InnerPhyre, I was also told the same thing. I was glad when my priest told me I could receive during my period, especially since I was at a mission with no priest and only had services once a month (and it was almost always that time of the month for me. My godmother was happy when I told her that she could receive during that time.

GregConstantine · Oct 24, 2013

"Pope St. Gregory the Great said that women who wish to abstain during their menstrual cycle should not be pushed to receive, but neither should women who choose to commune during this time be stopped from doing so."

Indeed. To say you absolutely should not or don't have to wear head cover or abstain from the Eucharist is just as bad as saying you absoulutely have to.

That priest should read and listen to fathers of the Church rather than the spirit of this world.

ArmyMatt · Oct 24, 2013

I have known both who do it out of personal piety, but I have never seen anyone refused for not, even in very insistant places. so I would just talk to your priest and go from there. there are plenty of pious and saintly women who do not cover their heads.

BraveMommy · Oct 24, 2013

Do you know of any women/girl Saints (besides St. Mary of Egypt) or Martyrs who did Not cover her head?

ArmyMatt said:
I have known both who do it out of personal piety, but I have never seen anyone refused for not, even in very insistant places. so I would just talk to your priest and go from there. there are plenty of pious and saintly women who do not cover their heads.

ArmyMatt · Oct 24, 2013

BraveMommy said:
Do you know of any women/girl Saints (besides St. Mary of Egypt) or Martyrs who did Not cover her head?

well, she is not a saint yet, but she does have a growing veneration, and that is Matushka Olga of Alaska. in icons she always has her head covered, but I have seen a few photos where she has no head covering.

BraveMommy · Oct 24, 2013

Were the photos taken when she was inside or outside of Church?

ArmyMatt said:
well, she is not a saint yet, but she does have a growing veneration, and that is Matushka Olga of Alaska. in icons she always has her head covered, but I have seen a few photos where she has no head covering.

ArmyMatt · Oct 24, 2013

BraveMommy said:
Were the photos taken when she was inside or outside of Church?

dunno actually. all I have seen of her, photograph wise, is head uncovered.

ChirpChirp · Oct 27, 2013

InnerPhyre said:
A woman can do both or either of these things out of piety. A woman cannot be scorned, judged, or condemned for choosing not to do one or both. Pope St. Gregory the Great said that women who wish to abstain during their menstrual cycle should not be pushed to receive, but neither should women who choose to commune during this time be stopped from doing so.

I agree

My priest actually talked about this in church earlier! In short he said that women are not unclean during their period and after giving birth to a baby and should not be told they are, but it is more about the practical side of things. Personally I don't have any problems going to church on my period but my mom on the other hand feels very ill and wouldn't go in anyway, so it depends.

ChirpChirp · Oct 27, 2013

BraveMommy said:
Addressing both issues: Orthodox Christian Parenting Cultivating God's Creation in the section Instilling Modesty is Women Teach Your Daughters on page 232: Throughout ALL the centuries of the Church, women have taught their daughters to cover themselves and to abstain while on their cycle. who are we-in this current century-to decide that this is no longer necessary?

Thank you all who reply

See this is what gets me, if you argue that "when they're on their cycle" they can't, that means that they can never receive again until their are menopausal, because the cycle starts in puberty and ends when you run of out of eggs. It just so happens that a few days of the monthly cycle are physically apparent while the rest of the time the changes are happening unseen inside the body...

BraveMommy · Oct 27, 2013

ChirpChirp said:
See this is what gets me, if you argue that "when they're on their cycle" they can't, that means that they can never receive again until their are menopausal, because the cycle starts in puberty and ends when you run of out of eggs. It just so happens that a few days of the monthly cycle are physically apparent while the rest of the time the changes are happening unseen inside the body...

I think we all know what the author of the book meant when using that phrase to defend the continued practice of Orthodox Christian women through out the centuries.

Do you know of any good reason our generation ought to break from tradition in these maters?

buzuxi · Oct 27, 2013

ChirpChirp said:
I agree My priest actually talked about this in church earlier! In short he said that women are not unclean during their period and after giving birth to a baby and should not be told they are.

My mom would disagree. Of course because of feminist slants the priest is mislead. It's not that woman is impure, it's the blood that's impure and is better not to approach the chalice out of reverence. The epistles of the Alexandrian patriarchs are canonical epistles, Pope Gregory"s letter is not. Thus the canonical epistles take precedence.

ChirpChirp · Oct 27, 2013

buzuxi said:
My mom would disagree. Of course because of feminist slants the priest is mislead. It's not that woman is impure, it's the blood that's impure and is better not to approach the chalice out of reverence. The epistles of the Alexandrian patriarchs are canonical epistles, Pope Gregory"s letter is not. Thus the canonical epistles take precedence.

How is the blood impure? It's the same blood that's passed through the rest of your body.

buzuxi · Oct 27, 2013

Then that also adds to the reasons. As you should take care not to bleed the day you receive communion. I've never met a woman whose ever said her messes are pure. Most are upfront about it.

27B6 · Oct 27, 2013

ChirpChirp · Oct 27, 2013

buzuxi said:
Then that also adds to the reasons. As you should take care not to bleed the day you receive communion. I've never met a woman whose ever said her messes are pure. Most are upfront about it.

I wouldn't use the description pure nor impure about it...it's just blood it's neutral. It's not like saying a thought can be pure or impure to me anyway. I can understand what you're saying about not bleeding on the day of communion though.

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