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marc32123
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What does the bible really mean when it says that Jesus died for our sins so that we can be forgiven? How does the suffering he had to go through on the cross change God's mind about the forgiveness we recieve?
The book of Hebrews does a good job in explaining especially chapters 7,8,9 and 10. Can't fully explain because I have to go study for a class but if I can find some time this week, I'll try to explain but the word of God speaks (written) it better than anyone of us can explain. Try reading those chapters, especially chapter 9, and hopefully others who comment on here can help explain some of the confusion.
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ViaCrucis
Confessional Lutheran
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It didn't and doesn't change God's mind about forgiving sins. Christ's dying and rising is God's act to forgive us our sins and deliver the world to reconciliation with Himself.
God has chosen to have mercy on all, to forgive all--this wasn't a new development in God's plan, but was always the plan. In Christ there is forgiveness, because this was always God's Means to accomplish this very thing. To rescue the world from sin, from death, from hell, from the devil and deliver it to His good tomorrow.
As far as theories of Atonement go, there are several different ways which the Christian Church has articulated the Atonement, and they aren't necessarily all mutually exclusive. Satisfaction Theory, Ransom Theory, and Recapitulation Theory are the three big ones. Christus Victor Theory is another, but it's more-or-less a modern reappropriation of Ransom and Recapitulation. Penal Substitution Theory has its roots in Satisfaction Theory, but should be understood as distinct.
-CryptoLutheran
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jpcedotal
Old School from the Backwoods - Christian Style
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Simple answer
It completely pays the debt owed for all sin.
All sin is forgiven for everyone, the saved and the unsaved. All each of us has to do is believe it.
It completely pays the debt owed for all sin.
All sin is forgiven for everyone, the saved and the unsaved. All each of us has to do is believe it.
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Tangible
Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato
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Tweak: If we believe it, then God is saving us.
(We can't believe ourselves into salvation, but God grants saving faith to those whom he is saving enabling them to believe. Belief is a product of God's gift of salvation, not the cause.)
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fhansen
Oldbie
What's ironic-and the awesome eye-opener about it all-is that in Jesus God, Himself, was suffering the penalty for our sins. That's how much God loves man. He was proving to us what He should never have to prove but was willing to nonetheless: that He's always loved man with an unfathomably enormous love; He's always been ready to forgive, waiting with open arms for us to turn back to Him.
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Jesus came to rescue men from oppression, brought about by separation from God.
To come back to God we should imitate Jesus, set aside our own will and allow God's will to be done. Jesus showed how this could be done by obeying, setting aside His own will and allowing God's will to be done, teaching, healing, delivering and feeding the oppressed. These acts set right the situations in people's lives.
Many accepted physical healing and feeding, but resisted spiritual deliverance. They did not understand that the former actually confirmed the truth of the second.
Finally, Jesus set aside His will and allowed God to have His way, which was for Jesus to sacrifice himself so that God could show that obedience to God is the correct Way to live. God did this by raising him from the dead.
Several other results also were achieved by this act of obedience. Just as praying for the sick in obedience to God resulted in healing, sacrificing his life led to Jesus being made a sin bearer (Jesus was not made sin, as often mistranslated). Unlike the animals used in Jewish sacrifices, which are actually prophetic representatives of Jesus 's future act, God ruled that Jesus's sacrifice was effective, His system of justice accepted it, considered it to reverse the effect of the sins of the world. Since God created the system He could set its rules. If you examine the logic, you'll find it has a rational basis to it.
This is a huge topic. Asking specific questions will give information on specific aspects of the matter.
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marc32123
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I don't understand the last part about God granting saving faith to those whom he is saving enabling them to believe. If faith is the reason why we are saved, and faith is only granted by God(as the bible says in Romans 12:3), then why does he choose some to grant it to and not others? How can God condemn someone for not having faith when he is the one that grants it?
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God grants EVERYONE saving faith. ALL can come to Christ and believe. If they choose to receive that gift of faith and believe in Christ, then they have accepted the gift of Salvation. Not all will choose to receive the gift of faith and believe, but it is granted to all.
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marc32123
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I still don't understand though......why does he create some with the desire to choose to receive the gift of faith and not others?
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marc32123
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That doesn't really answer my question. I don't really understand what your trying to say....could you elaborate please?
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marc32123
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If God doesn't determine our desires for us, then where do they come from. What you are saying doesn't make sense to me.
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squint
Well-Known Member
The entire freewill premise is a joke. It amounts to not much more than making our own thoughts both our Creator and our God. Ridiculous premise.
The 'you can choose to believe' [insert some other concoctions of mankind of the religious order who 'chose' to believe what THEY thought] and voila, how free is that? You are just buying into somebody else's freewill constructs claiming they are the whole enchilada.
If people truly have freewill then they should believe whatever it is that THEY really believe and not take somebody else's imaginations.
Freewill is nearly laughable. One may as well believe in Disneyland.
s
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squint
Well-Known Member
Following the bouncing ball of scriptural fact Paul presents that it was God Himself who bound all of us with disobedience. (Romans 11:32)
The way that fact is delivered from the beginning is that Eve was deceived and both her and Adam sinned, and entered into the death spiral from their associations with deceptions. (lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life, brought into their hearts courtesy of the DEVIL)
From that point on, from the point of internal deception of an entity that was not even them, there is no longer a reason to see just and only Adam and Eve.
The deceiver has to factor into the scriptural picture.
When that factual narrative is seen, then a reader will also see Paul's fact as a fact, that ALL of us are bound INTERNALLY with disobedience.
Now, considering who is involved with that, can anyone see the DISOBEDIENT SPIRIT in the hearts of mankind, controlling and blinding all of us?
If you can't see the disobedient spirit that has captured all of mankind, making all of mankind his SLAVE, how will you understand the scriptures?
God Himself allowed, even CAUSED that binding to happen.
Again, Paul is abundantly clear in many places about our current 'situation.' In 1 Cor. 15 Paul delineates that we ALL are bound to DISHONOR, CORRUPTION, WEAKNESS and a natural body.
Does anyone see the connection again?
The BOLD RED deals with the dishonor, the corruption of SATAN in the hearts of mankind.
Now, come Lord Jesus, and STAND between us and that EVIL INTERNAL WORKER.
See the picture yet?
He came to DIVIDE us all. And divide He Will.
s
The way that fact is delivered from the beginning is that Eve was deceived and both her and Adam sinned, and entered into the death spiral from their associations with deceptions. (lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life, brought into their hearts courtesy of the DEVIL)
From that point on, from the point of internal deception of an entity that was not even them, there is no longer a reason to see just and only Adam and Eve.
The deceiver has to factor into the scriptural picture.
When that factual narrative is seen, then a reader will also see Paul's fact as a fact, that ALL of us are bound INTERNALLY with disobedience.
Now, considering who is involved with that, can anyone see the DISOBEDIENT SPIRIT in the hearts of mankind, controlling and blinding all of us?
If you can't see the disobedient spirit that has captured all of mankind, making all of mankind his SLAVE, how will you understand the scriptures?
God Himself allowed, even CAUSED that binding to happen.
Again, Paul is abundantly clear in many places about our current 'situation.' In 1 Cor. 15 Paul delineates that we ALL are bound to DISHONOR, CORRUPTION, WEAKNESS and a natural body.
Does anyone see the connection again?
The BOLD RED deals with the dishonor, the corruption of SATAN in the hearts of mankind.
Now, come Lord Jesus, and STAND between us and that EVIL INTERNAL WORKER.
See the picture yet?
He came to DIVIDE us all. And divide He Will.
s
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fhansen
Oldbie
Disneyland exists last I heard. Free will gives man the ability to reject Gods overtures-His grace. We can't save ourselves, apart from Him, and yet we can refuse His gift of salvation. Of course man has free will; he's not a morally irresponsible imbecile-at least as a rule; we're held accountable according to our knowledge, capabilities, etc. When God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree, did He want Adam to eat of it?
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squint
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's a small world after all. As are some of the theological constructs of some.
We've been through this before. If God wants to change anyone, He can, did and will do.
We do not become believers out of our own imaginations, which is what freewill claims. Just 'believe.'
Believe what? Believers have to be 'led' to believe matters unseen and they are so by the unseen.
It has nothing to do with the person or their will. Any casual reader can read that the god of this world blinds the minds of unbelievers. It's not just the person's will that is involved.
Do you really think the god of this world forks over his puppets that easily?
Uh, no. Unbelievers stay that way because GOD does not let them see and keeps the god of this world IN PLACE over their minds.
And some believers just forget WHOM they were released from, because that same working continues working in all of us past SALVATION.
Man is an ignorant slave by Gods Own Designs.
God Himself bound all men to disobedience and planted us all in dishonor, corruption, weakness and a natural body. (Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 15:40-46 for quick references)
We can 'account' all the day long and what truth will it bear? If we can't even account simple scriptural facts why would God buy our imaginations?
I have no issues giving God account for His Own Facts about my standing which HE in fact MADE.
Why in the world would any believer with so called freewill try to claim themselves as 'better than' what scripture itself defines as our factual conditions?
Hebrews for example says we come before God with what? Yeah, an EVIL CONSCIENCE.
I acknowledge that fact as a simple fact. Is that 'giving account' in your ledgers? Or must I buy protection from some religious racketeer to cover up that fact?
The account is not only about Adam, and yes, God had zero intentions of leaving His son Adam bound into a pile of wet dust for eternity.
God fully INTENDED to bring an end to that wet DUST PILE just as He has with our wet DUST PILES.
The first Adam was a natural man bound with disobedience, dishonor, corruption and was slated for eventual termination at the end of his TIME.
The Last Adam exists and IS SPIRITUAL. That is the Way of God. First the natural order, then the Spiritual order.
Natural men have no resemblance whatsoever to FREE in any form. Our experiences are entirely SUBJECTIVE.
s
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