Revelation 17 and the Roman Catholic Church

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 13, 2013

steve_bakr said:
The Book of Revelations was addressed to the persecuted Church at the end of the 1st century. It is not an eyewitness account of predermined future events, especially since the future has open possibilities.

If you don't mind reading, I would refer you to Karl Rahner's "The Hermeneutics of Eschatological Assertions" from Theological Investigations. But it is out of print, so you could instead read the chapter on Eschatology in The Theology of Karl Rahner (Buller), downloadable on your Kindle.

I mayself am rather partial to Preston Eby's commentary on Revelation :angel:

Kingdom Bible Studies Table of Contents

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series Part 1

The mark of the beast. Armageddon. The Four Horsemen. The false prophet. Babylon the great. Falling stars, stinging locusts, and giant hailstones. The seven last plagues. The bottomless pit. The lake of fire. These images of terror and catastrophe from the book of Revelation have greatly influenced the thinking of millions of Christians through the ages. Even the secular press uses images such as "Armageddon" and "four horsemen of the Apocalypse" to describe calamities in our world. Despite 1900 years of fascination with the book of Revelation, John’s letter to the seven Churches of Asia continues to be misunderstood. And badly misinterpreted!

One misconception shared by some is that the Revelation has nothing of importance to say to us. It’s considered to be merely a bizarre piece of first-century writing with no relevance for today. Another wrong idea is that the Revelation is a code book describing a specific outline of history written in advance. Countless interpreters have tried to "decode" the book from a historical perspective to find all the major world events of the past 1900 years. Others interpret it more literally as a handbook for predicting the cataclysmic events that will bring the final wrath of God and the end of the world. The claims of Christian groups from the early church to the present — that the Revelation pinpoints the events, personalities, and time periods of "the end" — have all failed. This should be a caution to believers for using the book of Revelation as a predictive handbook. Other people’s interpretation of the book of Revelation is based on the "Pan Theory" — it’s all going to pan out in the end! Beloved brethren, the fact is, it’s not panning out the way the end-time prognosticators are projecting!............

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brinny · Oct 13, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
Me wonders how many have been killed in the name of religion since the 1st century?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS VS THE PHARISEES

Matt 23:34 "Because of this behold! I am commissioning toward ye Prophets and Wisemen and Scribes.
Out of them ye shall be killing and ye shall be crucifying.
And out of them ye shall be scourging in the synagogues of ye.....

John 16:2
Putting out of the synagogues they shall be doing ye.
But is coming an hour that every the one killing ye should be supposing a divine service to be offering to the God

...........

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Reminds me a bit of how utterly misguided and blind Saul was before he was converted to Paul, before God literally blinded him to bring him to his senses so he could "see the Light" (literally)

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 13, 2013

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Me wonders how many have been killed in the name of religion since the 1st century?

brinny said:
Reminds me a bit of how utterly misguided and blind Saul was before he was converted to Paul, before God literally blinded him to bring him to his senses so he could "see the Light" (literally)

1Cr 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Gal 1:13
For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.

.

squint · Oct 13, 2013

steve_bakr said:
The Book of Revelations was addressed to the persecuted Church at the end of the 1st century. It is not an eyewitness account of predermined future events, especially since the future has open possibilities.

If any dissection of the book of Revelation requires the elimination of applicability based on historical elimination...then...please follow the reasoning...

ALL SCRIPTURE is likewise eliminated other than that which demands to be specified as held.

People try that stunt constantly. Well it was only spoken to Jews of the past, therefore it's invalid.

You should know that at least the RCC for the most part takes the WORD OF GOD of the Old Testament as applicable.

I'd be surprised if they wipe out the Word of God in Revelation, but I guess it wouldn't surprise me either.

The fact that it is filled with ALLEGORY and SYMBOLISM automatically brings present tense applicability.

Why? Because allegory and symbolism deals with continuing matters such as evil powers and Spiritual matters which run beyond the physical historical only narrative.

so in short, using history to eliminate the text is using history to eliminate Word of God and that is quite entirely nonsense.

I quoted some text earlier in the thread that shows without any doubt that Satan and devils are factually included in the narrative.

so if any of you historical elimination guys want to make a case that Satan and devils are passed away from being presently active, that is where you are going to have to go to eliminate the narrative.

and I doubt any of you really want to go there. Your own churches sure don't go there!

but there is a general LACK of good Rev. dissection in any case.

If you don't mind reading, I would refer you to Karl Rahner's "The Hermeneutics of Eschatological Assertions" from Theological Investigations. But it is out of print, so you could instead read the chapter on Eschatology in The Theology of Karl Rahner (Buller), downloadable on your Kindle (searchword: Rahner).

If his spiel is elimination, I wouldn't even bother to entertain it for a nanosecond based on the above simple observations.

Yes, SATAN and DEVILS are addressed in the text.

Yes, Gods Words are in the text.

Yes, both of those factual dynamics contain present tense applicability.

s

brinny · Oct 13, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
1Cr 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Gal 1:13
For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.

.

This is, in essence a testimony to how Jesus Christ Himself chose Paul to be an apostle, and how he most likely never would have sought to be an apostle on his own, even after his conversion.

AWESOME verses. Worthy of an entire study.

squint · Oct 13, 2013

brinny said:
Reminds me a bit of how utterly misguided and blind Saul was before he was converted to Paul, before God literally blinded him to bring him to his senses so he could "see the Light" (literally)

It was certainly no mere coincidence that scales fell from his eyes.

Satan wasn't deemed a serpent without cause...

Once any reader SEES that the text really does address VIPERS in MANKIND, children of the DEVIL, they will stop trying to eliminate the Word of God:

Luke 3:7
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Have these been destroyed yet?

Uh, no.

And that is EXACTLY what Revelation is really about.

s

brinny · Oct 13, 2013

Originally Posted by brinny View Post
Reminds me a bit of how utterly misguided and blind Saul was before he was converted to Paul, before God literally blinded him to bring him to his senses so he could "see the Light" (literally)

squint said:
It was certainly no mere coincidence that scales fell from his eyes.

Satan wasn't deemed a serpent without cause...

Once any reader SEES that the text really does address VIPERS in MANKIND, children of the DEVIL, they will stop trying to eliminate the Word of God:

Luke 3:7
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Have these been destroyed yet?

Uh, no.

And that is EXACTLY what Revelation is really about.

s

that's an excellent point...never thought of that.....

steve_bakr · Oct 13, 2013

squint said:
If any dissection of the book of Revelation requires the elimination of applicability based on historical elimination...then...please follow the reasoning...

ALL SCRIPTURE is likewise eliminated other than that which demands to be specified as held.

People try that stunt constantly. Well it was only spoken to Jews of the past, therefore it's invalid.

You should know that at least the RCC for the most part takes the WORD OF GOD of the Old Testament as applicable.

I'd be surprised if they wipe out the Word of God in Revelation, but I guess it wouldn't surprise me either.

The fact that it is filled with ALLEGORY and SYMBOLISM automatically brings present tense applicability.

Why? Because allegory and symbolism deals with continuing matters such as evil powers and Spiritual matters which run beyond the physical historical only narrative.

so in short, using history to eliminate the text is using history to eliminate Word of God and that is quite entirely nonsense.

I quoted some text earlier in the thread that shows without any doubt that Satan and devils are factually included in the narrative.

so if any of you historical elimination guys want to make a case that Satan and devils are passed away from being presently active, that is where you are going to have to go to eliminate the narrative.

and I doubt any of you really want to go there. Your own churches sure don't go there!

but there is a general LACK of good Rev. dissection in any case.
If his spiel is elimination, I wouldn't even bother to entertain it for a nanosecond based on the above simple observations.

Yes, SATAN and DEVILS are addressed in the text.

Yes, Gods Words are in the text.

Yes, both of those factual dynamics contain present tense applicability.

s

No, I did not intend to eliminate it and I should have been more clear about that. I did say that the intended recipients were persecuted Christians in the 1st century and that it is not to be read as an eyewitness account of fixed events in the future. But I did not say that it has no relevence today.

It indeed tells us something about ourselves today, and offers us hope for a future which is based on choices we make in our present. So, I do not dismiss it.

What does concern me very much is the consistent efforts that many people make to take its apocalyptic imagery and apply it to situations today AS IF the book were written as a coded eyewitness account of fixed events. For example, that Babylon is the Vatican or something like that. So, no, Karl Rahner does not use history to eliminate the relevance of the Book of Revelation.

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 13, 2013

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

1Cr 15:9
For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Gal 1:13
For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.

brinny said:
This is, in essence a testimony to how Jesus Christ Himself chose Paul to be an apostle, and how he most likely never would have sought to be an apostle on his own, even after his conversion.

AWESOME verses. Worthy of an entire study.

I am actually of the view that OC Judaism was what Paul was telling his Jewish followers to come out of in 2 Corin 6.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7322927
2 Corin 6 and the "them" question

Luke 21:20 `When-ever yet ye may be perceiving Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, then be ye knowing! that has neared the desolating of Her;
21 then those in theJudea/ioudaia <2449>, let them be fleeing into the mountains; and those in midst of her, let them be out-coming and those in the countries, no let them be into-coming into to her;

2 Corin 6:17 wherefore come-forth out of midst of them! and be being separated! is saying LORD
and an unclean-thing no ye be touching! and I shall be accepting ye

Revelation 18:4 And I hear another voice out of the heaven saying "come forth! out of Her My people..............

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah!

At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country and from distant parts to keep the festival.
How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said

"Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.......

.

squint · Oct 13, 2013

steve_bakr said:
No, I did not intend to eliminate it and I should have been more clear about that. I did say that the intended recipients were persecuted Christians in the 1st century and that it is not to be read as an eyewitness account of fixed events in the future. But I did not say that it has no relevence today.

and I was pointing out the fact that ALL believers now living live in anticipation of the destruction of the devil and his messengers, which same is the attestation and promise of Revelation.

recipient of the past notwithstanding, Gods Words in this regard still stand and REMAIN to be fulfilled as a REALITY.

The Good News is that we as believers DO get to participate in that matter as did our compatriots of the faith who have passed.

Psalm 149:9
To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord.

It indeed tells us something about ourselves today, and offers us hope for a future which is based on choices we make in our present. So, I do not dismiss it.

Our choices in this matter mean nothing.

Gods Power will perform exactly what He has spoken.

Do we partake? Assuredly each of us carry DIVINE JUDGMENT to each of our respective crosses. When any of us die, the sins we carried in our bodies hangs in that dust pile and will eventually be just so much dust in the wind.

What does concern me very much is the consistent efforts that many people make to take its apocalyptic imagery and apply it to situations today AS IF the book were written as a coded eyewitness account of fixed events. For example, that Babylon is the Vatican or something like that. So, no, Karl Rahner does not use history to eliminate the relevance of the Book of Revelation.

Looking at these matters as solely external is fruitless as is the insane attempt to make the RCC or any other religious organization or man singular thee anti-Christ.

We are all suffering from marketing manipulation of believers to make a buck. Sensationalist drivel.

That being said, if a believer is knowledgeable in the ways of allegory, they WILL see The Living Hand of God upon this earth currently in living working actions.

I witness this daily and many many events are according the patterns that God has shown in the past in His Words.

So as you know, anyone here that sez your group or leader is the anti-Christ I will defend you as NOT that regardless of any other little nonsense we may see differently about.

s

Leuko Petra · Oct 13, 2013

steve_bakr said:
... For example, that Babylon is the Vatican or something like that. So, no, Karl Rahner does not use history to eliminate the relevance of the Book of Revelation.

Karl Rahner was a Jesuit Priest [ Karl Rahner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ] who stated:

"...Rahner states that the death and the resurrection of Jesus are two aspects of a single event not to be separated (Rahner, p. 266), even though the resurreciton is not a historical event in time and place like the death of Jesus. ... The resurrection is not a return to life in the temporal sphere, ..." [Wikipedia, Karl Rahner] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Rahner#Death_and_Resurrection

The blasphemous theology of Karl Rahner, from the bowels of the Ignatian Jesuit order, founded by the serpent himself...

"In Foundations of Christian Faith, published in German in 1976, two years after the first Dutch edition of Schillebeeckx's Jesus, Rahner observed that "we miss the meaning of `resurrection' in general and also of the resurrection of Jesus ... if our original preconception is the notion of a resuscitation of a physical, material body." Rather than a resuscitation, Rahner considered resurrection to be "the final and definitive salvation of a concrete human existence by God and in the presence of God, the abiding and real validity of human history, which neither moves further and further into emptiness, nor perishes altogether. In this respect death is precisely the essential renunciation and the radical relinquishing of any imaginary model of the `how' of this finality, whether this model is related to the `body' or to the `spiritual soul' of this single human existence."(115)

Relating resurrection to every person's hope, and thus a "transcendental" hope to survive in some final and definitive sense, Rahner insisted that "resurrection is not an additional assertion about the fate of a secondary part of man." "Resurrection is rather the term which, in view of man's concrete situation, promises the abiding validity of his single and entire existence. Resurrection of the "flesh" which man is does not mean resurrection of the body which man has as a part of himself." In Rahner's understanding, persons who affirm their existence as "permanently valid and redeemable," and do "not fall into the misunderstanding of a platonic anthropological dualism," are affirming their resurrection in hope.(116)

Rahner allowed that "we can admit without any qualms that the reports which are presented to us at first glance as historical details of the event of the resurrection or of the appearances [of Jesus] cannot be harmonized completely. Hence they are to be explained as secondary literary and dramatic embellishments of the original experience that `Jesus is alive,' rather than as descriptions of the experience itself in its original nature."(117) He further asserted that:

So far as the nature of this experience is accessible to us, it is to be explained after the manner of our experience of the powerful Spirit of the living Lord rather than in a way which either likens this experience too closely to mystical visions of an imaginative kind in later times, or

understands it as an almost physical sense experience. There is no such sense experience of someone who has really reached fulfillment, even presupposing that he must indeed have freely `manifested' himself. For this manifestation to imply sense experience, everything would have to belong to the realm of normal and profane sense experience.(118)

Like Schillebeeckx, Rahner also emphasized that the Easter experience presupposed by "the texts which dramatize [it] under the most varied theological motifs" was not produced from within but came "from without." The witnesses of that experience, which was sui generis, were given the unique task of sharing it with others. One can refuse to believe them, but not "by pretending that one understands their experience better." As Rahner observed, "it can be said that by `historical' means we would not reach the resurrection of Jesus, but only the conviction of his disciples that he is alive." The Resurrection of Jesus as "the assumption of the fruit of our ongoing history into its final and definitive state" goes beyond the realm of our empirical world, but is inextricably related to "our own transcendental hope in resurrection."(119) " "...(115) Foundations of Christian Faith: An Introduction to the Idea of Christianity, trans. William V. Dych (New York: Seabury, 1978) 266-67.

(116) Ibid. 268.

(117) Ibid. 276.

(118) Ibid.

(119) Ibid. 276-78. ..." - http://www.thefreelibrary.com/BODILY+RESURRECTION+IN+CATHOLIC+PERSPECTIVES.-a062087919

Ratzinger [Pope Benedict XVI, who shared much of Karl Rahners beliefs, and co-worked with Rahner on Vatican II] stated in His "Introduction to Christianity, 2nd Edition, page 353":

"...their essential content is not the conception of a restoration of bodies to souls after a long interval; their aim is to tell men that they, they themselves, live on..." - Source Link

...other Jesuits teach the same, like Jesuit Tambasco of Georgetown U, other Jesuits in the 'Jesus Seminar', teach the same...

Total Denial of the actual resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the spiritualism of satan, mystifying everything into some teleological mummery, panentheism, etc...

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 13, 2013

Originally Posted by steve_bakr

... For example, that Babylon is the Vatican or something like that. So, no, Karl Rahner does not use history to eliminate the relevance of the Book of Revelation.

Leuko Petra said:
Karl Rahner was a Jesuit Priest [ Karl Rahner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ] who stated:

"...Rahner states that the death and the resurrection of Jesus are two aspects of a single event not to be separated (Rahner, p. 266), even though the resurreciton is not a historical event in time and place like the death of Jesus. ... The resurrection is not a return to life in the temporal sphere, ..." [Wikipedia, Karl Rahner] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Rahner#Death_and_Resurrection

Total Denial of the actual resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the spiritualism of satan, mystifying everything into some teleological mummery, panentheism, etc...

You don't have enough different colors in your post
and your font size is way too small to see......

.

Rhamiel · Oct 13, 2013

Fr.Rahners sounds like a bad priest

and he was a Jesuit....

that does not prove that all, or even most, Jesuits are bad

prodromos · Oct 13, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
You don't have enough different colors in your post
and your font size is way too small to see......

He is delibrately trying to mess with color blind people

Leuko Petra · Oct 13, 2013

Rhamiel said:
Fr.Rahners sounds like a bad priest

and he was a Jesuit....

that does not prove that all, or even most, Jesuits are bad

There are levels of Jesuits [even as Masonry, and the like], from lowest rank and file to the superior General, and layers of oaths, as the order has an hierarchy, and initiations...

Do you know of the history of the Jesuit order?

Why were they thrown out, expulsed, of every country where they existed, including the 'catholic' ones, and banned permanently & forever by Papal Brief, Dominus ac Redemptor Noster, of Pope Clement XIV on 21 July 1773?

It certainly was not for preaching the gospel, nor the truths of Scripture, but because their teachings undermined everything Holy and pure, and brought nations into utter chaos, revolt, and civil war!

The foundation for Ignacian spirituality is serpentine, even as found in their own materials, and in the histories, and in his own writings, the Exercises...

"One of Ignatius Loyolas spiritual visions was a serpent-like creature that helped him understand the differences between good and evil." [Contemporary Paintings on Ignatian Spirituality, by Holly Schapker; page 24] - college.holycross.edu/grants/lilly/pilgr-schapker.pdf

There is of course much more documentable facts of history.

Tzaousios · Oct 13, 2013

Leuko Petra said:
The foundation for Ignacian spirituality is serpentine, even as found in their own materials, and in the histories, and in his own writings, the Exercises...

Oh the wonders of Parallelomania! :waaah:

Leuko Petra · Oct 13, 2013

"one of the seven angels" - Which one, and where else are they mentioned?

"the seven vials" - What are these, and what is in them?

Rhamiel · Oct 13, 2013

Leuko Petra said:
There are levels of Jesuits [even as Masonry, and the like], from lowest rank and file to the superior General, and layers of oaths, as the order has an hierarchy, and initiations...

Do you know of the history of the Jesuit order?

Why were they thrown out, expulsed, of every country where they existed, including the 'catholic' ones, and banned permanently & forever by Papal Brief, Dominus ac Redemptor Noster, of Pope Clement XIV on 21 July 1773?

It certainly was not for preaching the gospel, nor the truths of Scripture, but because their teachings undermined everything Holy and pure, and brought nations into utter chaos, revolt, and civil war!

The foundation for Ignacian spirituality is serpentine, even as found in their own materials, and in the histories, and in his own writings, the Exercises...

"One of Ignatius Loyolas spiritual visions was a serpent-like creature that helped him understand the differences between good and evil." [Contemporary Paintings on Ignatian Spirituality, by Holly Schapker; page 24] - college.holycross.edu/grants/lilly/pilgr-schapker.pdf

There is of course much more documentable facts of history.

I am not sure that comparing the Jesuits to the Freemasons is an accurate description
yes, both have some form of hierarchy

but as far as I know, the Jesuit hierarchy is based on region
like schools, and police stations and governments have a hierarchy

as for the suppression of the Jesuits, well this is kind of a complex history, one I am not educated on. From what I have read, it was a combination of things, anti-clericalism in Catholic Countries, a way for secular Governments to flex their muscle without attacking the Catholic Church as a whole
also, on the part of the Jesuits, there were serious allegations of political and economic mismanagement.
It seemed to have started as a quarrel between the Jesuits and the House of Bourbon, and Bourbon princes controlled several European Countries at that time
interesting, in Non-Catholic countries, the suppression of the Jesuits was either ignored or exempted, Russia and Prussia both allowed the Jesuits to operate within their boarders

as for Ignation Spirituality, have you ever heard of the Two Banners?

Leuko Petra · Oct 13, 2013

Leuko Petra said:
"one of the seven angels" - Which one, and where else are they mentioned?

"the seven vials" - What are these, and what is in them?

"many waters" - What are these?

Tzaousios · Oct 13, 2013

Leuko Petra said:
"many waters" - What are these?

I want to know what a spiritual snake is.

Revelation 17 and the Roman Catholic Church

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