Is the Father and the Christ two persons?

Der Alte · Oct 12, 2013

smashed4christ said:
This is the verse:

Here is your answer:

Because the Christ had taken on the garment of a man and was fully man in terms of his experiences whilst in the flesh, he would say My God, My God.

Until he would ascend up on high to sit on the right hand of power as the Almighty Father, the p Alpha and Omega to deliberate in judgement over all nations.

The difference is in spatial perspective of the one infinite being, who is above to the servant form one from below.

Jesus in his glorified form no longer is the bond servant, he now is the judge and the saviour and Father of all his creation.

If the word created the world then the spatial perspective applies that he brought into being the world, therefore by this definition is the one and only Father. Scripture states there is one Father and he is Christ Jesus.

The above verse distinguishes between his earthly human servant form to the Heavenly Father form.

It goes hand in hand that the Word who is declared as creating all things that ever exist in the material universe is recorded in John 1:1-4 as the Father of all.

The Word is life and life begat the world and man and the Word by definition of his one infinite being who is Holy Spirit (John 4:24) is the one and only Father of all his creation.

You have spatial perspective from a hierarchical office point of view from the earthly bond servant that the Christ took upon himself to lower himself in order to save his human family and at the same time it was not a crime to consider himself as equal to the Father and the glorified vindicated Father who stretched out his hand in his welcome wagon to reconcile man back to himself.

The glorified form does not pray to the Father because he is the Father the one and only Alpha and Omega. There is one Alpha and Omega. The glorified Son in John's Revelation is claiming the title of the unseen Father, as he sits on the right hand of power (his infinite Holy Spirit) as the Father, where his presence reaches to AZAL (eternity) Zechariah 14:5.

I can testify of the glorified Christ as the Father before you men at length, but you will continuously deny him as the Father before men. All your testimonies fellas will be used against you, I thought I'd let you know, for you no longer have an excuse by saying lord lord lord if you denied him as the Father. You very know what he will say to you if you denied him as the Father.

Trinitarians as I have stated over and over again stand to risk everything by the arrogant line they are towing without discerning the grave consequences that will result.

I invite you to worship the glorified Christ as the Father. Come and let us say Amen. Praise be to our Father Christ Jesus.

That is what you believe in 2013, in the US, after being intensely indoctrinated by whatever religious group you are affiliated with. The question is how did the Jews and gentiles of the 1st century in Israel, Italy, Egypt, Greece, Turkey, etc. when they read the letters immediately after they were written, understand the proof texts you provided.

[SIZE="+1"]1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.[/SIZE]

The above verse distinguishes between his earthly human servant form to the Heavenly Father form.

Did the church at Corinth understand Paul to be saying this "distinguishes between his earthly human servant form to the Heavenly Father form.?" Or did they understand that Paul was speaking about one who was the Father and one who was Lord Jesus Christ, just as it is written? The Greek is very clear.

When Jesus said "My Father" did those who heard Him in the 1st century understand that He was somehow talking to a different office, mode, etc of Himself? Or did they understand Him to be talking to/about someone who was distinct from Himself just as they were when they spoke about their human father. If you think they understood it as you do, please provide some evidence.

101c · Oct 12, 2013

2 boxer
if it was missing from all, then thats another matter. but its not. so I'll go with the bible. now that is where I'll stand.
and two lets put these scriptures to the test. in Revelation Chapter 5 is the one sitting different from the one standing or the same one. just a yes or no will do thank you

"where there is knowledge stay not ignorant"
and
"the truth hurts, but a lie will kill you"

Jack Terrence · Oct 12, 2013

smashed4christ said:
Friend I don't throw punches. Christ doesn't speak through laying on punches but on laying on hands in blessing.

Actually, Christ does NOT speak through the laying on of hands today (Hebrews 6:1-3).

You have NOT refuted my point. The law said that the testimony to two witnesses is true. Jesus appealed to this law to show that He and the Father are two witnesses. Therefore, He is true.

What you have failed to understand in your divisive double standard fallacy is that most of the early manuscripts never ever had all the information. The reason being is that they were so fragmented and some even decayed and destroyed that bits and pieces were extracted and interpolated within the original context by educated scholastic interpreters of the Greek and historian detectives who looked at thousands of manuscripts as a comparative study to find that the word heaven was in thousands of them.

It only goes to show that being smart is not really smart friend because at the end of the day, it's not how much you think you know, it is how Christ considers your heart in relation to him.

The phrase ("which is in heaven") is wanting in the Alexandrian MSS. Aleph (Sinaiticus) and B (Vaticanus). It is also omitted from three other Unicals, viz. L, T and W. Further, it is omitted by Papyrus 66 (P66) and Papyrus 75 (P75). It is also not found in the Sahidic version, some Bohairic copies (Egyptian) and the Diatessaron. The Early Church Fathers that are against the reading of the KJB consist of Eusebius, Proclus, Ephraim Syrus and Marius.

Eusebius was deemed the most learned Christian scholar of his time.

DrBubbaLove · Oct 12, 2013

smashed4christ said:
This is the verse:
Here is your answer:

Because the Christ had taken on the garment of a man and was fully man in terms of his experiences whilst in the flesh, he would say My God, My God.

Until he would ascend up on high to sit on the right hand of power as the Almighty Father, the p Alpha and Omega to deliberate in judgement over all nations.

The difference is in spatial perspective of the one infinite being, who is above to the servant form one from below.

Jesus in his glorified form no longer is the bond servant, he now is the judge and the saviour and Father of all his creation.

If the word created the world then the spatial perspective applies that he brought into being the world, therefore by this definition is the one and only Father. Scripture states there is one Father and he is Christ Jesus.

The above verse distinguishes between his earthly human servant form to the Heavenly Father form.
.

Well I was not so much asking how ones sees God as either talking to Himself or some diversified "other" that is not really an "other".

I was simply asking what does the whole expression mean. The allegation was "somone" had "forsaken" "someone else" . We all by now surely realize that each of us have very different views of WHOM or WHO those someones and someone elses are.

I was really wondering if anyone would notice that Jesus could be seen as singing Scripture, a song, and a victory song at that - which is fitting. Never mind.

101c · Oct 12, 2013

2 Der Alter,
you said, "The above verse distinguishes between his earthly human servant form to the Heavenly Father form". so are you saying a human is God, as your second person of your trinity?. Yes or no.

and two, 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him".

if the Father is the only God, well how is the Son a separate God?.

"where there is knowledge stay not ignorant"
and
"the truth hurts, but a lie will kill you"

Jack Terrence · Oct 12, 2013

101c said:
2 boxer
if it was missing from all, then thats another matter. but its not. so I'll go with the bible. now that is where I'll stand.
and two lets put these scriptures to the test. in Revelation Chapter 5 is the one sitting different from the one standing or the same one. just a yes or no will do thank you

You yourself said that "it's a matter of opinion."

101c said:
well boxer, it's a matter of opinion....

Are you going to live by your own word?

DrBubbaLove · Oct 12, 2013

101c said:
2 bubba,
What part of my not participating in your continued flaunting of the rules here in CF did one not comprehend.

you love men rules, (LOL). but I cherish God Rules. I know you would love to see 101c off the board. but that's ok. because I have learned your deficiencies, of the doctrine you hold to, (smile).
and as for your not participating, hear the Lord, Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still". why?. 2 Timothy 3:1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away". so see ya.

Not my house, but when I visit the house of others I follow their rules or I leave if I find I cannot. I would think behaving that way in another's house is a Christian thing to do as well. One is free to preach whatever one likes, unless and until one enters the house of another who asks one to kindly restrict that speech. A house that invites as large and broad range of ideas Christian ideas would need rules to keep every conversation from breaking down to tired ole "yes it does" vs "no it does not" and allegations of people being unsaved or in peril.

Believe good bye has been said before, though am unclear why one thinks any one was leaving. My point was simply that I would refuse to go along with poor behavior in the house of another. I realize some here have a very high opinion of their opinion regarding the status of Christians who do not share their beliefs, fortunately such folks are not my Judge.

So back to topics fitting for UT forums, one still has not addressed why a God that takes forms, modes, roles or whatever should talk of Himself as if He were many or several. Or why Jesus when indicating his coming permanent departure would make them think He was sending "another" when if it is really believed He meant it was just Him coming back in another "form". Why would that be a secret He would want to keep from them?

smashed4christ · Oct 12, 2013

The reason why you don't have a simple statement that the glorified Christ is the Father because that was a given and the scribes tried to write on the manuscripts what was not easily understood, because the procurement of paper, writing material and scribes were a very expensive thing back then.

By making a mistake on a piece of paper today we can just scrunch it up and toss it in the bin. Back then all writing material were very expensive and writing something that is common knowledge would be a waste of resource.

So yes the Corinthians new that Christ is the Father because they had the primary source of information, directly from the Apostles who visited them and instructed them orally.

The inquisitions that arose from the draconian councils was instrumental in phasing out the oral instruction of the first century church and replacing it with another by the dictated councils that stated, you either will believe what we tell you to believe and never speak anything outside of these conditions we have placed according to our councils or you will be labeled as a heretic and then tortured and killed.

So oral tradition of the first century was killed off through the inquisitions that didn't happen over night but over a period of 600 years or so while 50 million true Christians who rejected the councils were liquidated by being directly sanctioned by the 70 to 80 sequential popes who wanted the truth of the first century church silenced for good.

Then what flowed from that was the shutting up of the gospel barring it from the laity.

Thank Christ Jesus that we have the Holy Bible in our hands today, all because of the brave and valiant efforts of men and women in Christ Jesus who would not yield to the papacy or the heretical antichrist councils onto their death by the torture instruments of the papacy legacy of 600 years of crimes against humanity.

Do you understand why the church at Corinth was a faithful church and the church today is birthed on the apostasy and bloody systematic legacy of the draconian councils.

DrBubbaLove · Oct 12, 2013

A jack Chic ghost writer in training????

101c · Oct 12, 2013

2 boxer,

you didn't answer, lets put these scriptures to the test. in Revelation Chapter 5 is the one sitting, is he different, or separate from the one who is standing or is he the same one. just a yes or no will do thank you

Der Alte · Oct 12, 2013

101c said:
2 Der Alter,
you said, "The above verse distinguishes between his earthly human servant form to the Heavenly Father form". so are you saying a human is God, as your second person of your trinity?. Yes or no.

and two, 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him".

if the Father is the only God, well how is the Son a separate God?.

Please try reading my post. I did not say "The above verse distinguishes between his earthly human servant form to the Heavenly Father form." I was quoting Smashed and asking him how the chruch at Corinth understood it.

Der Alter said:
That is what you believe in 2013, in the US, after being intensely indoctrinated by whatever religious group you are affiliated with. The question is how did the Jews and gentiles of the 1st century in Israel, Italy, Egypt, Greece, Turkey, etc. when they read the letters immediately after they were written, understand the proof texts you provided?

Did the church at Corinth understand Paul to be saying this "distinguishes between his earthly human servant form to the Heavenly Father form.?" Or did they understand that Paul was speaking about one who was the Father and one who was Lord Jesus Christ, just as it is written? The Greek is very clear.

When Jesus said "My Father" did those who heard Him in the 1st century understand that He was somehow talking to a different office, mode, etc of Himself? Or did they understand Him to be talking to/about someone who was distinct from Himself just as they were when they spoke about their human father. If you think they understood it as you do, please provide some evidence.

101c · Oct 12, 2013

2 Der Alter,
ok, my bad, but the question still stand, 1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him".
if the Father is the only God, well how is the Son a separate God?.

"where there is knowledge stay not ignorant"
and
"the truth hurts, but a lie will kill you"

smashed4christ · Oct 12, 2013

smashed4christ said:
The reason why you don't have a simple statement that the glorified Christ is the Father because that was a given and the scribes tried to write on the manuscripts what was not easily understood, because the procurement of paper, writing material and scribes were a very expensive thing back then.

By making a mistake on a piece of paper today we can just scrunch it up and toss it in the bin. Back then all writing material were very expensive and writing something that is common knowledge would be a waste of resource.

So yes the Corinthians new that Christ is the Father because they had the primary source of information, directly from the Apostles who visited them and instructed them orally.

The inquisitions that arose from the draconian councils was instrumental in phasing out the oral instruction of the first century church and replacing it with another by the dictated councils that stated, you either will believe what we tell you to believe and never speak anything outside of these conditions we have placed according to our councils or you will be labeled as a heretic and then tortured and killed.

So oral tradition of the first century was killed off through the inquisitions that didn't happen over night but over a period of 600 years or so while 50 million true Christians who rejected the councils were liquidated by being directly sanctioned by the 70 to 80 sequential popes who wanted the truth of the first century church silenced for good.

Then what flowed from that was the shutting up of the gospel barring it from the laity.

Thank Christ Jesus that we have the Holy Bible in our hands today, all because of the brave and valiant efforts of men and women in Christ Jesus who would not yield to the papacy or the heretical antichrist councils onto their death by the torture instruments of the papacy legacy of 600 years of crimes against humanity.

Do you understand why the church at Corinth was a faithful church and the church today is birthed on the apostasy and bloody systematic legacy of the draconian councils.

The many churches that were liquidated by the papacy were small tight nit communities who had a library of manuscripts used for good doctrine.

How do you think they got a hold of thousands upon thousands of these manuscripts separately without an owner church in sight.

Do you know how?

They killed them and took what they kept.

The Corinthians believed that Christ is the Father but those who killed these small church communities wanted to change that and you my friend are a product of that change.

DrBubbaLove · Oct 12, 2013

One God who is Jesus the Son, Same One God who is the Father, Same One God who is the Holy Ghost. So "one God, the Father" is speaking of the One Person as opposed to saying one God, the Son, which another Person but same one God.

What is God and Who is God do not get the same answer in the orthodox view. Which is why it is simple matter for One Person to say something like " I am leaving but will send another" and depicting a conversation before anything "was" with reference to "We" and have it be comprehensible.

As we have not been offered how the various UT views see such Scripture references as being comprehensible, only the opinion that it represents the existence of various "rolls" God is said to play, we are left to wonder what they think. While we get that is the belief, restating that belief does not explain how such references are comprehensible/sensible to those believing such things.
If an actor starts speaking of the various roles he may be currently playing as "We" are doing something or telling people he has to leave and will not be seen again by them in this life - but not to worry he will send one of his "roles" - most of us would question the mental state of that individual.

101c · Oct 12, 2013

One God who is Jesus the Son, Same One God who is the Father, Same One God who is the Holy Ghost

if they are the same, how is they separate?.

"where there is knowledge stay not ignorant"
and
"the truth hurts, but a lie will kill you"

DrBubbaLove · Oct 12, 2013

The question was if what we are calling Persons is a mistake and instead one believes it is just a different "role" God is playing - how does one see scripture regarding God speaking in terms of "We" and in sending "another" as comprehensible?

DrBubbaLove · Oct 12, 2013

smashed4christ said:
The many churches that were liquidated by the papacy were small tight nit communities who had a library of manuscripts used for good doctrine.

How do you think they got a hold of thousands upon thousands of these manuscripts separately without an owner church in sight.

Do you know how?

They killed them and took what they kept.

The Corinthians believed that Christ is the Father but those who killed these small church communities wanted to change that and you my friend are a product of that change.

I think I read that one in Chic tract #352 LOL

101c · Oct 12, 2013

2 bubba,
sorry, that want do, One God who is Jesus the Son, Same One God who is the Father, Same One God who is the Holy Ghost

if they are the same, how is they separate?.

are you saying that the son is God Yes or No.

"where there is knowledge stay not ignorant"
and
"the truth hurts, but a lie will kill you"

DrBubbaLove · Oct 12, 2013

The question was if what we are calling Persons is a mistake and instead one believes it is just a different "role" God is playing - how does one see scripture regarding God speaking in terms of "We" and in sending "another" as comprehensible?

I understand it is difficult to answer in a view that says there is only God playing "roles" so I guess by not answering that such verses are indeed incomprehensible to 101c in his view (again saying such verses represent God in "roles" does not answer if what the verse says makes sense)

101c · Oct 12, 2013

I understand it is difficult to answer in a view that says there is only God playing "roles" so I guess by not answering that such verses are indeed incomprehensible to 101c in his view (again saying such verses represent God in "roles" does not answer if what the verse says makes sense)

LOL, I have scripture that support my view.
1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
the scripture is clear, there is only ONE God who is the Father, if the son is a separate person then the your doctrine is in ERROR. and if the son is the Same person, then the TITLE "Son" is just that a title, and not a person.

see how easy I answer. so is the son a separate person yes or no?.

"where there is knowledge stay not ignorant"
and
"the truth hurts, but a lie will kill you"

Is the Father and the Christ two persons?

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Force of one

Fighting the good fight

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

Force of one

Fighting the good fight

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

Active Member

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

Force of one

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Force of one

Active Member

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

Force of one

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

Force of one

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist

Force of one

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