What has this world come to? Transgender bathroom setups?

gurneyhalleck1 · Oct 11, 2013

Well then basically there is no banana safe to eat in the U.S. it seems....

MariaRegina said:
When I contacted Dole by phone, they said over the phone and in their letter that they can raise GMOs organically. That would be insidious. I agree. I turned my letter over to Trader Joes. They kept it and viola. They now have Dole Organic bananas.

rusmeister · Oct 12, 2013

choirfiend said:
It linked back to the top of the page for me when I clicked it.

Yes, I can, and do, distinguish between the two.

Yes I can, and do, believe that people can be deceived. Can you believe that what I posted is possible?

I would wonder if perhaps an "explosion," as you put it (which Im very much in doubt it is), could be due to both societal acceptance of someone who is transgendered and the increase in falleness we get as generations of sin continue to distort our nature. I think media paints a picture as if something is much more common than it is.

Gurney,
You're free to ignore me, as well. I didn't bother addressing the hyperbole and words put in my mouth that you wrote earlier because I dont see much point in arguing with individuals on forums--just ideas. Since I find these "complain about the world being worldy instead of Christian" threads to be completely without and opposed to the inner prayer life, it's hard to say they walk hand in hand. Monastics dont complain much, and they definitely don't encourage dwelling on negativity, as this thread does. My preference is to not spend too much time dwelling on it either--there are to many people who could benefit from that time spent in more productive ways.

Well, I at any rate am not ignoring you, and I don't think Gurney is either.

What I see, CF, is a rise of new concepts that never existed in all of history being treated as truth about the human condition on the basis of the idea that science can tell us new things, not only about the human body, but the human soul as well.

To andwer your question, I think your idea possible, but HIGHLY improbable, on the order of suggesting that some disease could cause large numbers of people to sprout tails. I admit that there are bodily disorders that require pity, sympathy and compassion. I deny that modern science can inform us about spiritual disorders, but am quite sure they can pretend to, via the pseudo-sciences that begin with the Greek word for "soul" (psyche), and speaking of a "psyche" instead of a soul, as if changing English to Greek created a thing they had special authority to speak on.

And I see a contradiction, where on the one hand, you effectively defend the idea that there are significant numbers of "transgender" people, (a term I do NOT accept as carrying valid truth that the ancient Church would or should recognize) and on the other hand denying what I charactized, corrctly, as an explosion. For me, twenty years is nothing, and it is a simple matter of seeing things in historical terms. These forms of insanity were never recognized as anything to be treated as true, and so, socially speaking, did not exist, and then poof! They are everywhere (and yes, exaggerated by the media), to the point where a genuinely significant number of people seriously consider altering the social order to treat the insane as an alternate form of normal. That IS an explosion, by any historical standard.

Without any hate, without "complaining" in any sort of whiny sense about the world "being worldly", I note that we are at a cultural point where not only the society at large, but Orthodox Christians who have the Church to teach them the truth are being deceived that these hellish ideas are expressions of truth.

I agree completely on compassion. But I do not agree that compassion and Christian love mean agreeing with these new delusionary understandings of the human soul. A person with an extra chromosome exists. "Transgender", generally speaking, does not. And that, I think, is why even the word "homosexual" is a lie, let alone "gay". There ARE disordered passions. But the modern secular sciences do not hold the answer to dealing with them. The Church does. Speaking of love and compassion in calling us to accept these people's self-identification is falsely guided love and compassion, the same as kindly giving a drunk another drink (or however we would characterize the feeding of these passions) while trying to point him to the Church. We ourselves are all in the same boat, and all seasick, which is why we must not trust what the world tells us, but only what the Church tells us. And that is what I think Frederica does not do, and where she, an Orthodox matushka, can lead us astray. Look to the Church fathers! (Others have and can point them out better than I) Find what they say about "transgender", or any disordered sexual passion. I look at Romans ch 1 and find the cause and explanation.

You won't find the invented and imaginary terms of the modern world there, though you will in Frederica, because Frederica has, for all of her general grasp of Orthodoxy, accepted the world's self-definitions as true, as far as I have read her. In the article you link to, she clearly confuses the idea of judging sin and judging the sinner. By her logic, as I read it, we must not say that stealing or murder are wrong, because that would be "judging others" and "we ought to fast from that".
She is WILDLY wrong that it will not have much impact. Though she goes on to complain about (what she sees as the greater damage of) promiscuity, she might as well say at the social attitude towards fornication has not had much impact. All of the modern sexual ills began as ideas that most people thought few would practice. People really BELIEVED that easy divorce would not be widely practiced, only by a few extremely unhappy couples. Heck, look at the story of Sodom. It's obvious that these things came to be practiced by a significant number of people in the city.
Yes, in the "long, slow, circle of time", people will recognize that "gay marriage" is nonsense. But the damage caused along the way will be tremendous, and this is where she is blind. "In the long, slow circle of time" people came to realize that fascism doesn't work. But it took a World War and tremendous destruction to end that particular scourge. Personally, I love my children enough to not want them to go through that, because I can see it. And I can see that she can't. The modern break-up of the family will bring down this society, which cannot possibly survive when the family has been (on the social level) abolished. Impact, indeed. And the destruction and suffering which accompany that will make the collapse of the Soviet Union (which I actually lived through) look like small potatoes.

Philosophically, she sees only individuals. She is a victim of modern individualism. That isn't even really Orthodox. We see community, and being saved together, corporately, not only as separate individuals. While we are here, we are supposed to love our neighbor and desire a common good, not only our own, even spiritual good. I agree on starting with Jesus. There no one would argue. But when we have spoken of Jesus, and the people suffering from disordered passions start demanding to be saved, to accept Jesus and KEEP and "celebrate" their disordered passions, what will you say? What does Frederica say? Nothing.

gurneyhalleck1 · Oct 12, 2013

Well, a few things....

First of all, I think I encouraged you to ignore THREADS, not people. I never asked you to ignore me, though I note that you usually have nothing positive to say ever about me or my thoughts. It's unfortunate, but that's fine. I'm fairly certain I said "threads" not "me." I talked about how I see threads that I either find banal, uninteresting, or just "not my thing" and what do I do? I ignore those threads. I don't ignore people.

Oddly enough, when people call me a hyperbolist, who creates threads that are an utter waste of space and time, say I complain and am opposed to the prayer life that is so essential to we Orthodox, I'm unproductive, and dwell on negativity, I usually feel that's a touch argumentative.

If you find the thread to be utterly objectionable, a waste of time, and at odds with your monastic sensibilities, then as I've stated, I would stay away from them and pray for the poster that started them. I would continue to admonish you to ignore the thread and just start prayer threads. I'll even come on and throw in some prayers without accusing you to be wasting my time and being a spiritual dullard.

What's interesting is that I've seen monastics on videos that I have watched. They discuss the prayer life and the inner struggles of the monastic. I have heard many of them criticizing the sinfulness of the world. I have heard them name the many corrupting influences and sinful decisions of our leaders. They are not all silent and gagged.

And monasticism is not the only approach to the faith walk. My parish priest regularly discusses the absurd laws here in California and how we are to live amidst all this evil. He has gotten petitions going in the past and is working on some right now attempting to fight these laws. I appreciate that he is making a difference. I guess one might call him a complainer, whiner, and devoid of prayer because he is not ok with our worldly direction. I have heard Orthodox priests preach against the LGBT agenda and the abortion lobby. They have the right to say what they wish and teach against evil.

We're on a message board. I suppose I see something odd in keeping silent on a message board. Keystrokes are necessary and if we cannot vent a bit and share frustrations or concerns about the world and discuss the state of affairs in the world with fellow Orthodox, if all we are to do is throw out prayers on here, well, I find that odd.

I think we enter a dangerous place when we fear exchanging ideas and we close the door to other people. What is interesting is that I have had more arguments with Rus than anyone in TAW, and yet I have learned a ton from him! I think our little arguments weren't empty or devoid of value. Though I haven't always agreed with him, I've not only learned much from him, but in many ways I have come to see much wisdom in many of his positions. I almost never skip one of his posts. I read them with interest. jckstraw is also a guy from whom I learn much. I don't happen to be a huge Father Seraphim Rose fan, but if I ignored him or called his words "hyperbole" because of his love and appreciation for Father Seraphim, I'd be losing something. I often find his posts helpful and productive. If Rusmeister left TAW, I might leave, too.

We must balance our frustrations and anger with sins with a healthy Christian hope. We see the Lord Himself knock over the money-changers, grab a whip, yell and chew out the hypocrites and Pharisees and commercial money-grubbers. We see Paul call people hypocrites, fools, and name all the sins and licentious nonsense that not only the pagans, but his contemporary Christians were engaged in. I would hope we wouldn't see these things as wasteful hyperbole. Anger and frustration against sin are ok. They are a natural reaction to loathing the fallen state we're in as we watch a world turn its back on theosis preferring to embrace the darkness.

As I said, I think we can walk and chew gum. I can complain about the state of affairs and make my opinion known that we're becoming a godless society and hopefully find strength in knowing that we're all frustrated about this garbage. I will fight it publically and not sit down on my thumbs....all the while praying quietly to the Lord for His mercy, worshipping with a whole heart at liturgy, and realizing that no sin and no pop culture and no society can overcome God's grace.

choirfiend said:
Gurney,
You're free to ignore me, as well. I didn't bother addressing the hyperbole and words put in my mouth that you wrote earlier because I dont see much point in arguing with individuals on forums--just ideas. Since I find these "complain about the world being worldy instead of Christian" threads to be completely without and opposed to the inner prayer life, it's hard to say they walk hand in hand. Monastics dont complain much, and they definitely don't encourage dwelling on negativity, as this thread does. My preference is to not spend too much time dwelling on it either--there are to many people who could benefit from that time spent in more productive ways.

buzuxi02 · Oct 12, 2013

Cute Tink said:
I just wanted to reply to one thing here. "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" is generally a term used by the inappropriate contentography industry to describe pre-op male-to-female transsexuals, not female-to-male. Also, outside of that industry, it is generally considered a very serious insult, right along with "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]". I would recommend that you don't use either term. You could, potentially, get a violent response from a trans person if you do.

I'll keep that in mind I wouldn't want to get a violent response from these 'people'. Transvestites don't like to be called trannies? I wonder what word they would like to use. Looks like the Lgbtqqwxyz acronym can go on forever. Ok so shemales is an [offensive]word used for people who have amputated their penis; not women that have grafted one over that female body part which radical muslims like to circumsize. I think im getting the terminology down.

gurneyhalleck1 · Oct 12, 2013

Easy, bro! The whole "amputation" talk, that's just painful to read when we're talking about that "area" :o

buzuxi02 said:
I'll keep that in mind I wouldn't want to get a violent response from these 'people'. Transvestites doesn't like to be called a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]? I wonder what word they would like to use. Looks like the Lgbtqqwyz acronym can go on forever. Ok so shemales is an offensive word describing people who have amputated their penis not ones that have grafted one onto themselves. I think im getting the terminology down.

buzuxi02 · Oct 12, 2013

gurneyhalleck1 said:
Easy, bro! The whole "amputation" talk, that's just painful to read when we're talking about that "area" :o

lol edited my post for greater clarity, but it will still make you squirm.

gurneyhalleck1 · Oct 12, 2013

Forget greater clarity, dude, you edited that to prevent banning! ^_^

buzuxi02 said:
lol edited my post for greater clarity, but it will still make you squirm.

Scipio · Oct 12, 2013

Dewi Sant said:
Before anything else, we must remember that these are people who, like ourselves, are human, with feelings, hearts, and souls. It is through pressures and traumas of society, that they have made these decisions, or had the decisions thrust upon them.

Compassion before judgement.

It is our duty as Christians to listen to them and welcome them, as people, not as "transgender" people. The scare quotes suggest something malicious where it may need not apply.
There are examples going back into the '50s where people born with hormonal imbalances were given different genital apparatus...often because their natural set wouldn't work, or was mutilated. I know of a case where a person was born with a penis which was less than an inch in length...that same person had breasts and high levels of estrogen.

We are fortunate not to suffer from the immense psychological pain these people suffer with. I believe it is quite incomprehensible to imagine the daily agony. Yes, none of the surgery would be necessary were love more manifest in the world, but it is not. It is a failure on our part as Christians for hiding our light and spewing forth judgement under the banner of "righteousness". The worst excesses of the protestant mindset.

Besides, I don't see how the OP has anything to do with Eastern Orthodoxy in particular.

rusmeister · Oct 12, 2013

Scipio said:
Besides, I don't see how the OP has anything to do with Eastern Orthodoxy in particular.

You don't see what Christian faith has to do with things? (Eastern Orthodoxy is Christian faith, btw)
Let me offer a little GK Chesterton here:

You cannot evade the issue of God, whether you talk about pigs or the binomial theory, you are still talking about Him. Now if Christianity be. . . a fragment of metaphysical nonsense invented by a few people, then, of course, defending it will simply mean talking that metaphysical nonsense over and over. But if Christianity should happen to be true, then defending it may mean talking about anything or everything. Things can be irrelevant to the proposition that Christianity is false, but nothing can be irrelevant to the proposition that Christianity is true.

GenetoJean · Oct 12, 2013

If the Orthodox faith can help cure/prevent these transgender thoughts, the hatred for our own bodies, our own existence, I pray that more people find this healing. Most of us are only doing what we have to to have a life.

choirfiend · Oct 12, 2013

GenetoJean,

God can do anything, whether its emotional, physical, or spiritual. It is not without work, and not without stumbling almost certainly, but the effort does make a difference.

rusmeister · Oct 12, 2013

choirfiend said:
GenetoJean,

God can do anything, whether its emotional, physical, or spiritual. It is not without work, and not without stumbling almost certainly, but the effort does make a difference.

Amen to that!

choirfiend · Oct 12, 2013

I also want to say---

The Church is the hospital, and Christ is the Great Physician. All of us are broken, and all of us are seeking healing and reunion with Christ. You are no different than any of us.

Jere209 · Oct 12, 2013

MOD HAT ON

This thread has undergone a major cleaning due to a couple of rule violations, namely which would be this one:

Flaming and Harassment
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Click to expand...

May posts were deleted as a result, and some were deleted simply because they contained quotes from a post that violated that rule.

The other violation would be in the spirit of Christianity. Please, this is a Christian forum, and let us show that love and respect to one another. Don't be judgmental, don't be disrespectful. If you have an issue with someone, bring it to their attention privately. Posting in fellowship is allowed here.

There's more I could say, however, I will leave you to think on this scripture:

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God bless
Jere209

MOD HAT OFF

MKJ · Oct 12, 2013

MariaRegina said:
What are orthodox pagans? How can a pagan be right thinking? I think that would only be the case if they were righteous and about to become an Orthodox Christian Catechumen.

On the other hand, crazy heretical California pagans are all around us. They worship the Earth Goddess, are involved in the New Age Movements, and eat organic GMO granola with flakes, nuts, and bits of fruit.

It was a joke MR.

MKJ · Oct 12, 2013

MariaRegina said:
Dole claims to have organic GMO bananas.

I believe them. There are only two types of bananas in the world now: Short apple bananas and those long ones. A virus killed off the other varieties. Chances are that the two varieties left are GMO now.

This is not true - there are lots of banana varieties.

I believe that all are descended from a few wild varieties, but that is not unusual as far as domestic foods go.

MKJ · Oct 12, 2013

gurneyhalleck1 said:
Organic and GMO are oxymoronic....I buy organic bananas at Whole Foods and at Super Target. They say organic non-gmo on them?

Well, the label organic is defined legally and to some extent by the group doing the certification used.

There are plenty of factory farmed organic foods, it is becoming big business. It is really against what organic originally meant, but today it is pretty narrowly defined as being grown without some kinds of chemicals.

It might make sense to have different labels for GMO and grown without chemical fertiliers and such though - some of the issues are different enough that it might be reasonable to treat them separately.

I think irradiated foods can sometimes be labeled organic too, which some people object to.

Lovely Jar · Oct 12, 2013

1 Corinthians 6:9

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality.

We can fight mans corruptible law till we're blue in the face. But when earth is the domain of the enemy of God we can not be surprised when Satan and his minions are given license by the agents of the state.

Have we failed to notice immorality is being permitted to exist by law across the United States? While opposition to that is made illegal? And is even called hate speech by the perverse abomination known as the southern poverty law center?

A group that was once worthy of respect and has now aligned with the devil to usher in the end of the world an damnation.

Prepare yourselves. It is only going to get worse in these end times.

Cute Tink · Oct 12, 2013

buzuxi02 said:
I'll keep that in mind I wouldn't want to get a violent response from these 'people'. Transvestites don't like to be called trannies? I wonder what word they would like to use. Looks like the Lgbtqqwxyz acronym can go on forever. Ok so shemales is an [offensive]word used for people who have amputated their penis; not women that have grafted one over that female body part which radical muslims like to circumsize. I think im getting the terminology down.

First of all, I was trying to be polite. Frankly, I wouldn't think you would want to run around using a term that is genuinely offensive to a group of people. "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]", "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" or "it" are dehumanizing, offensive and rude.

Secondly, "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" is generally used for those who have not had it surgically removed.

A transvestite is different from transgender or transsexual.

If you really wonder what word we like people to use, transwoman for a male-to-female and transman for a female-to-male.

Calling anyone derogatory terms is not appreciated. I can't imagine anyone liking it.

Lastly, the quotes around people implies that we aren't. We are people, just like you.

Brother Bread · Oct 12, 2013

The world and its governments are at best Secular and heathen . Our kingdom is not of this world.

What has this world come to? Transgender bathroom setups?

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