What has this world come to? Transgender bathroom setups?

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choirfiend

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I would be curious to hear the conversations of the monastics and find out how much time they spend ranting and flailing against the worldliness of the world--and how much time they spend in prayer, fasting, reading, etc.

There is a difference between christian love of the individual and social "promotion" being touted as "tolerance." This thread, and others like it, are lacking hugely in the former. This is why I have a problem with it, and I don't feel the need to ignore it. I'd rather express my opinion about how these conversations are more about complaining and less about loving the neighbor.

If lurkers read this thread, Christian or otherwise, transgender or otherwise, and were turned off from visiting or pursuing the Church, then the thread is lacking in Christian love. It's hardly "speaking the truth in love" as there is no question on the Church's teaching, and that's not what's being discussed here anyway.
 
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GenetoJean

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I would be curious to hear the conversations of the monastics and find out how much time they spend ranting and flailing against the worldliness of the world--and how much time they spend in prayer, fasting, reading, etc.

There is a difference between christian love of the individual and social "promotion" being touted as "tolerance." This thread, and others like it, are lacking hugely in the former. This is why I have a problem with it, and I don't feel the need to ignore it. I'd rather express my opinion about how these conversations are more about complaining and less about loving the neighbor.

If lurkers read this thread, Christian or otherwise, transgender or otherwise, and were turned off from visiting or pursuing the Church, then the thread is lacking in Christian love. It's hardly "speaking the truth in love" as there is no question on the Church's teaching, and that's not what's being discussed here anyway.

This partly explains why I try to make comments about things. I try to stay away from what is right or wrong and just clear up ideas that are to me misconceptions. I want people to find their way to God. It doesnt matter to me if they stop identifying as LGBT in doing so; so long as they find that loving relationship with the Lord and can live a happy productive life.
 
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rusmeister

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I would be curious to hear the conversations of the monastics and find out how much time they spend ranting and flailing against the worldliness of the world--and how much time they spend in prayer, fasting, reading, etc.

There is a difference between christian love of the individual and social "promotion" being touted as "tolerance." This thread, and others like it, are lacking hugely in the former. This is why I have a problem with it, and I don't feel the need to ignore it. I'd rather express my opinion about how these conversations are more about complaining and less about loving the neighbor.

If lurkers read this thread, Christian or otherwise, transgender or otherwise, and were turned off from visiting or pursuing the Church, then the thread is lacking in Christian love. It's hardly "speaking the truth in love" as there is no question on the Church's teaching, and that's not what's being discussed here anyway.
Sorry you take it that way.
It's no good offering a cure for cancer to people who believe that what they have is not cancer, but a wonderful new growth.

The Gospel is only good news to those who have first accepted the bad news, the diagnosis of the terminal illness.
And when we have Orthodox Christians, or at least self-professed as such, doubting that there IS any bad news on topics like these, then we have to go back to the theological drawing board.

I asked you a question; it would appear that your answer is "No".
 
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choirfiend

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Rus, that linked back to this page. Care to post the question again?

I believe it is possible that something has "gone wrong" with a transgender person with a soul of one sex "trapped" in another sex's body, due to the fallen nature of this world, even if chromosomes come up one way or another. It's possible, in which case the desire to live as the soul God created isn't wholly inappropriate. I'm also not claiming to know individual cases, but would leave that up to a spiritual confessor. Having personal discussions with a real person about the beliefs of the church and their individual life is one thing; tilting at windmills in the public eye with no regard for the anonymous Person who stumbles upon it is another.

And I see it as separate issue from anything having to do with extra-marital sex.

What a timely article! Not the same as we are discussing here, but certainly related.
Why Not Speak Out on Gay[bless and do not curse]Marriage? - Writings - Frederica.com
 
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You're welcome to your opinion, obviously. As for "ranting and flailing," that is hyperbole and overly-emotional. The conversation is a valid one in that society is headed down a dark path. We need to have these conversations about sin and about the false rationale that accompanies them. I think Rus and MariaRegina as well as several other people have made some very valid points.

This post of yours seems to propose that we can't walk and chew gum. It paints a picture of people railing against sins 24/7 without prayer, without hope, devoid of faith in Christ and the seeking of inner peace. It's a classic either-or argument. It might be surprising to note that many Christians seek the peace of Christ in quiet prayer, meditate on the Holy Name, seek to know Him in a deeper way AND at the same time fight the good fight and keep the conversation going about the warped logic we're using to justify these "tolerance" bandwagons.

When one comes into a forum, as a member one has the opportunity to either engage the discussion or ignore it. You've made your opinion known. I respectfully disagree with it. And I simply say that if a person is seeking that inner peace and finds a thread like this upsetting, distracting, or objectionable, I'd stay away from it and keep my peace. I come into TAW daily and see threads that either don't interest me or that I just have no opinion on or don't like too much. I often choose to ignore it and move on.

A person can be fed up with the course of our civilization and yet still be entrenched in the life of worship, prayer, and the Christian Hope. I seem to have offended you in the past on many levels. If I have offended, I ask forgiveness. I truly ask for it. But if you find the subject this troubling, I'd recommend ignoring it.

I would be curious to hear the conversations of the monastics and find out how much time they spend ranting and flailing against the worldliness of the world--and how much time they spend in prayer, fasting, reading, etc.

There is a difference between christian love of the individual and social "promotion" being touted as "tolerance." This thread, and others like it, are lacking hugely in the former. This is why I have a problem with it, and I don't feel the need to ignore it. I'd rather express my opinion about how these conversations are more about complaining and less about loving the neighbor.

If lurkers read this thread, Christian or otherwise, transgender or otherwise, and were turned off from visiting or pursuing the Church, then the thread is lacking in Christian love. It's hardly "speaking the truth in love" as there is no question on the Church's teaching, and that's not what's being discussed here anyway.
 
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rusmeister

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Rus, that linked back to this page. Care to post the question again?

I believe it is possible that something has "gone wrong" with a transgender person with a soul of one sex "trapped" in another sex's body, due to the fallen nature of this world, even if chromosomes come up one way or another. It's possible, in which case the desire to live as the soul God created isn't wholly inappropriate. I'm also not claiming to know individual cases, but would leave that up to a spiritual confessor. Having personal discussions with a real person about the beliefs of the church and their individual life is one thing; tilting at windmills in the public eye with no regard for the anonymous Person who stumbles upon it is another.

And I see it as separate issue from anything having to do with extra-marital sex.

What a timely article! Not the same as we are discussing here, but certainly related.
Why Not Speak Out on Gay[bless and do not curse]Marriage? - Writings - Frederica.com

I checked the link. It goes to the post, but here's the text, anyway:
Hi, CF, I think I carefully and clearly distinguished between the vital need for the Chirch to continue to say, as it always has, that sin is sin, especially when people begin saying it ISN'T sin, and a clear understanding that I am the chief of sinners, I am NOT better, I am, so to speak, the murderer telling the thief that stealing is wrong when he says "A little pickpocketing doesn't hurt anyone". That is separate from people who suffer from hermaphroditism, etc. of COURSE we should not individually judge ANYONE before God. But we must make this distinction between sin and the sinner. Is it a distinction you can make? (I do not ask that to be facetious or hurtful, only to try to understand whether you do in fact make it. I have a bad feeling you may have taken my comments as a call to judge individual standing before God, which I agree with you is forbidden and soul-destroying
.

I sincerely hope this doesn't seem like bashing on you for disagreeing; I would ask, rather, in response to your last post, can you imagine a possibility that many of the people who make these claims are actually deceiving themselves, or being deceived? Or do you think that there is no possibility of deception; that this explosion of claims, something that has never happened on any similar scale in human history, is necessarily people correctly interpreting what they experience?
 
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MariaRegina

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Rather than read Frederica, I think a much more valuable source would be our Holy Fathers:

"If we detect any trace of hatred in our hearts against any man whatsoever for committing any fault, we are utterly estranged from love for God, since love for God absolutely precludes us from hating any man." - Saint Maximus the Confessor

The Philokalia, Volume 2: The Complete Text; Compiled by St. Nikodimos of ... - Google Books

I humbly apologize if I have offended anyone on this thread.
 
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MKJ

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Frederica is teaching the "I'm okay; you're okay" philosophy. This "I'm okay; you're okay" thinking would not have been tolerated during the 4th century when the Arian heresy raged and compromised about 80 percent of the Bishops!


Well, I don't think the Church was really going around telling pagans to stop being Arians.
 
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MariaRegina

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Well, I don't think the Church was really going around telling pagans to stop being Arians.

If a person were a pagan, they could not be an Arian.
Once a person accepted Christ, they were no longer a pagan, but either a Christian or a Christian heretic (an Arian).
 
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choirfiend

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I checked the link. It goes to the post, but here's the text, anyway:
.

I sincerely hope this doesn't seem like bashing on you for disagreeing; I would ask, rather, in response to your last post, can you imagine a possibility that many of the people who make these claims are actually deceiving themselves, or being deceived? Or do you think that there is no possibility of deception; that this explosion of claims, something that has never happened on any similar scale in human history, is necessarily people correctly interpreting what they experience?


It linked back to the top of the page for me when I clicked it.

Yes, I can, and do, distinguish between the two.

Yes I can, and do, believe that people can be deceived. Can you believe that what I posted is possible?

I would wonder if perhaps an "explosion," as you put it (which Im very much in doubt it is), could be due to both societal acceptance of someone who is transgendered and the increase in falleness we get as generations of sin continue to distort our nature. I think media paints a picture as if something is much more common than it is.

Gurney,
You're free to ignore me, as well. I didn't bother addressing the hyperbole and words put in my mouth that you wrote earlier because I dont see much point in arguing with individuals on forums--just ideas. Since I find these "complain about the world being worldy instead of Christian" threads to be completely without and opposed to the inner prayer life, it's hard to say they walk hand in hand. Monastics dont complain much, and they definitely don't encourage dwelling on negativity, as this thread does. My preference is to not spend too much time dwelling on it either--there are to many people who could benefit from that time spent in more productive ways.
 
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MKJ

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If a person were a pagan, they could not be an Arian.
Once a person accepted Christ, they were no longer a pagan, but either a Christian or a Christian heretic (an Arian).

That is my point.

If you read the article that choirfriend posted, you would see that is precisely what is being said.

There is no point in accusing pagans of being Arians.
 
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MariaRegina

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I guess I am just a back-slider!

It is because our pagans here are orthodox pagans. Not like the crazy heretical Californian pagans.

What are orthodox pagans? How can a pagan be right thinking? I think that would only be the case if they were righteous and about to become an Orthodox Christian Catechumen.

On the other hand, crazy heretical California pagans are all around us. They worship the Earth Goddess, are involved in the New Age Movements, and eat organic GMO granola with flakes, nuts, and bits of fruit.
 
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Hey, hey, mama! Ain't nuthin' wrong with eating organic granola, but GMO granola? Hades to the no!

What are orthodox pagans? How can a pagan be right thinking? I think that would only be the case if they were righteous and about to become an Orthodox Christian Catechumen.

On the other hand, crazy heretical California pagans are all around us. They worship the Earth Goddess, are involved in the New Age Movements, and eat organic GMO granola with flakes, nuts, and bits of fruit.
 
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MariaRegina

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Dole claims to have organic GMO bananas.

I believe them. There are only two types of bananas in the world now: Short apple bananas and those long ones. A virus killed off the other varieties. Chances are that the two varieties left are GMO now.
 
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Organic and GMO are oxymoronic....I buy organic bananas at Whole Foods and at Super Target. They say organic non-gmo on them?

Dole claims to have organic GMO bananas.

I believe them. There are only two types of bananas in the world now: Short apple bananas and those long ones. A virus killed off the other varieties. Chances are that the two varieties left are GMO now.
 
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MariaRegina

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Organic and GMO are oxymoronic....I buy organic bananas at Whole Foods and at Super Target. They say organic non-gmo on them?

No. No indications that they are non-GMO.

This is what the sticky label reads:

USDA
ORGANIC

Visit the Farm at
doleorganic.com
FARM 414
Peru

DOLE
ORGANIC

Certified by
Control Union
Certifications
[bar code]
94011
 
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Well, it's impossible to have a genetically-modified organism be also organic. It's like a faithful, believing theist atheist.

Genetically-modified items cannot be natural, or organic.

No. No indications that they are non-GMO.

This is what the sticky label reads:
 
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MariaRegina

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Well, it's impossible to have a genetically-modified organism be also organic. It's like a faithful, believing theist atheist.

Genetically-modified items cannot be natural, or organic.

When I contacted Dole by phone, they said over the phone and in their letter that they can raise GMOs organically. That would be insidious. I agree. I turned my letter over to Trader Joes. They kept it and viola. They now have Dole Organic bananas.
 
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