ROCOR VS MP - Seeking Current Info 2013 Please

Welcome to the forums, Poppa J! It's great to see that you're coming back to Orthodoxy.

ROCOR and the MP published the Act of Canonical Communion in November 2006, and it was signed on March 11, 2007. I can't post links, but look up "ROCOR" on OrthodoxWiki, and you can see the document for yourself.

So, you can rest assured that both ROCOR and MP are in full communion with each other, and have good relations today.

This is a very brief, hand-wavey history.

The ROCOR/ROCA in post-Revolutionary times was made up of hierarchs of the Church of Russia that were in parts of the Church outside of Russia or of hierarchs who escaped (either being sent out or leaving on their own). At some point, they were cut free (there is some mild controversy and dispute about this) so as to make sure that, if Soviets controlled the MP, they would still be fine (for instance, so that Russia would not have any ownership of diocesan property in the USA). At various times, the Soviets did have some level of control over the MP, but, even so, they were always resisting in some way rather than a mouthpiece of the godless communists. It's a fine line to walk, in much the same way the Greeks had to operate under the Ottoman yoke. Anyway, because of the manner in which they were cut free, at various times the MP and ROCOR/ROCA were deemed to be in schism with each other and the ROCOR at times accused the MP of collaborating with the Soviets.

Anyway, until rather recently, the MP only had what might be called "representation" churches in America - think of it as kind of like an embassy. With the fall of communism, the MP was once again free from the godless yoke and started to re-evangelize Russia as well as starting parishes in the diaspora where a lot of newly free Russian immigrants were going. However, the MP and ROCOR still had not renormalized their relations. They finally reunited in 2007.

Anyway: it's not like doctrine is secret. There is no hidden communist influence in current Russian church teaching. They're anti-communist from having survived so many decades in the country resisting the godless yoke (and eventually triumphing). If there were any doubt about that, ROCOR would not have reunited and the rest of the Orthodox churches in the world would not be in unity with the Russians.

Hope that helps?

Before ROCOR joined the MP, there was friction.

Several groups in the ROCOR did not join the MP. So, not every church that calls itself ROCOR or ROCA is actually part of the MP.

For example, there are these groups:

ROAC - Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church
The ROAC of America: The Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church of America Official Web Site Home Page

ROCOR-A of Met. Agafangel calls itself ROCA.
http://sinod.ruschurchabroad.org/engindex.htm

ROCOR - Met. Vladimir has been known as ROCiE or ROCA but is not the same as the ROCOR-A group above.
Russian Orthodox Church Abroad - Feast Day of the Transfiguration in Mansonville

Metropolia of North America and the British Isles with Western and Eastern Rites, Greek and Slavonic Churches
The Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles

RTOC - Catacomb Russian Orthodox Church
Öåðêîâíûå Âåäîìîñòè Ðóññêîé Èñòèííî-Ïðàâîñëàâíîé Öåðêâè -

I have linked these sites not to endorse them, but to provide information as to what happened to the ROCOR. This rupture of the ROCOR as the main group joined the MP was not a pretty scene. I witnessed several ugly fights where the ROCOR-MP attacked those priests who did not want to join the MP. Priests and Deacons should not be hitting one another.

In addition, those who did not want to join the MP often lost the churches that their ancestors had built. A few were able to keep the churches that their grandparents helped to build, but only after an extensive and expensive lawsuit.

there is some historic friction, but the schism with ROCOR and the other jurisdictions is done. so take your pick.

and welcome to TAW!

Poppa J said:

Thank YOU for everyone's participation on this question of mine! Now, let me take it a bit further.
If there is 'unity' now between these groups (MP & ROCOR), why then does it take two Bishops - as in Bishop Hillarion and Bishop Justinian??

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Because they are still two groups. ROCOR is indeed under the jurisdiction of the MP, but ROCOR is autonomous. Bishop Justinian is bishop over those churches who are not autonomous and are directly under the MP. Bishop Hilarion is bishop over the ROCOR parishes which function under the MP, but are autonomous.

A good comparison is this: When ACROD (the American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Diocese) came under the EP, we maintained our own ecclesiastical structure, and continued to govern ourselves. We maintained our own bishop, and we continue to have our own bishop elected to govern our church. But we also function under the umbrella of the EP, and we consider ourselves under his authority. It's the same with ROCOR and the MP. When ROCOR came under the MP, they maintained their own ecclesiastical structures--but they also function under the MP's umbrella.

Does that make sense?

Poppa J said:

Thank YOU for everyone's participation on this question of mine! Now, let me take it a bit further.
If there is 'unity' now between these groups (MP & ROCOR), why then does it take two Bishops - as in Bishop Hillarion and Bishop Justinian??

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They will remain distinct indefinitely. Theoretically in America the MP should have no parishes as they granted autocephaly to the OCA IN 1970. That makes the MP parishes uncanonical by their own descision, but then again no one has ever taken the OCA's claim to autocephaly seriously, not even them.

Poppa J said:

(MP) is probably the humblest religious structure in the state. For this, I am much more impressed.

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Poppa J, golden words! Both MP and ROCOR are authentic.

buzuxi02 said:

They will remain distinct indefinitely. Theoretically in America the MP should have no parishes as they granted autocephaly to the OCA IN 1970. That makes the MP parishes uncanonical by their own descision, but then again no one has ever taken the OCA's claim to autocephaly seriously, not even them.

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The MP doesn't care about canonical standards. This is evidenced by them building a cathedral and planning to transfer/ordain a bishop to Helsinki (a city which is already has a metropolitan under the EP)

tapi said:

The MP doesn't care about canonical standards. This is evidenced by them building a cathedral and planning to transfer/ordain a bishop to Helsinki (a city which is already has a metropolitan under the EP)

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Oh, this is so delicious. :o

Lord have mercy.

I bet the EP will go after the MP once again using that as an excuse to claim his "papal" supremacy.

MariaRegina said:

Oh, this is so delicious. :o

Lord have mercy.

I bet the EP will go after the MP once again using that as an excuse to claim his "papal" supremacy.

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Lord have mercy on prideous hierarchs regardless of jurisdiction who would establish bishoprics outside their canonical boundaries out of pridefulness or political gain.

tapi said:

Lord have mercy on prideous hierarchs regardless of jurisdiction who would establish bishoprics outside their canonical boundaries out of pridefulness or political gain.

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Lord have mercy. Truly this should not be.

I think getting into ---- - measuring contests about who is most/least canonical are emphatically not the best way to answer this question and not at all the most productive way to behave in general.

tapi said:

who would establish bishoprics outside their canonical boundaries out of pridefulness or political gain.

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Concerning MP and Finland it's not the case. There is a huge Russian Orthodox diaspora in Finland and it's quite fine that they provide spiritual guidance for their flock there. No politics here I think.

MariaRegina said:

EP will go .. his "papal" supremacy.

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Maria, that's true, EP seems to suffer Saruman's disease.. really sorry to say, and no offence to anyone.