Revelation 17 and the Roman Catholic Church

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Originally Posted by Leuko Petra
Instead, please allow me to begin with something simple for everyone and go from there, and there is a Scriptural reason for this as we shall come to realize.

A Symbol -- the Lamb

Q. What does the word "Lamb" Symbolize in the Revelation, even chapter 17 [in the mouth of two or three witnesses]? Is the word part of the Sanctuary as given in the OT pattern [if so where]?

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Revelation 17:14
Revelation uses a rather unique greek word for "Lamb".

I created a thread on it some time back for those interested:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7245442-2/#post47285908
The "lambkin" in Revelation and John 21 question


John 21:15
When then they dine is saying the Jesus to the Simon Peter "Simon of Jonas/John, thou are loving Me more of these"? He is saying to Him "yea Lord! Thou are aware that I am being-fond of thee". He is saying to him "be thou grazing/boske <1006>! the lambkins arnia <721> of Me".

2Peter 2:1
There became yet also False-Prophets in the people as also in ye shall be False-Teachers who-any shall be carrying in sects of destruction, and the One buying them, Owner/Master/despothn <1203>, disowning/arnoumenoi <720> (5740), bringing on them swift destruction. [Matt 24:11/Jude 1:4/Reve 6:10]


Reve 5:6
And I saw and behold! in midst of the throne and of the four living-ones and in midst of the elders a lamb-kin/arnion <721> standing, as having been slain/slaughtered





.
 
Upvote 0

Second Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2013
2,142
69
✟2,668.00
Faith
Christian
Chapter 17 is describing the spiritual nature/components of Satan's world and God's judgment against it and we can see that it is clearly a RELIGIOUS system, and then 18 get's into the material nature/components.

The Imperial cult was a religious system.
 
Upvote 0

Leuko Petra

Following The Lamb
Apr 8, 2013
610
6
Almost Home
✟831.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
...on the term sanctuary...
Without it, the very structure, etc of the Revelation, cannot be understood, nor of His ways therein, and all that will remain for anyone is confusion of face.

Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God? Psalms 77:13

For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; Psalms 102:19

They have seen thy goings, O God; even the goings of my God, my King, in the sanctuary. Psalms 68:24

Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end. Psalms 73:17

Q. Where is Christ Jesus seen standing/walking in Revelation 1:12-13?
 
Upvote 0

squint

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2007
16,182
903
Mountain Regions
✟20,405.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Without it, the very structure, etc of the Revelation, cannot be understood, nor of His ways therein, and all that will remain for anyone is confusion of face.

Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God? Psalms 77:13

For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; Psalms 102:19

They have seen thy goings, O God; even the goings of my God, my King, in the sanctuary. Psalms 68:24

Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end. Psalms 73:17

Q. Where is Christ Jesus seen standing/walking in Revelation 1:12-13?

The bulk of the sight was 'in the Spirit.'

When Jesus shows up with white hair, firey eyes, burning bronze feet and a firey two edged sword swinging from his mouth it may seem that 4 walls and a roof sights about sanctuary slipped out the door.

As to the location of Jesus, that would be 'in our midst.' It might also seem that the sanctuary is there, within us, where His Spirit dwells.

Jesus clearly depicted His Body as the Temple.

We are clearly part of His Body.

You also understand that ALL these matters from the Old Testament spoke of JESUS? Not 4 walls and a roof temple?

The TEMPLE transitioned many times.

Temple in wilderness. Temple of Solomon. Temple Destroyed.

Temple Rebuilt. Jesus in Flesh. Jesus Destroyed.

Temple raised. Temple distributed in our hearts. THE FINAL TEMPLE, God and The Lamb.

One Body.

Why you guys insist on dragging things out of the earthly desert and getting it physically into heaven just SMACKS of unrequired LITERALISM imposing into SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDINGS.

They are in fact TWO DIFFERENT WORLDS.

How long do you think it would take to decompress from false sight if you are heavily invested in it?

s
 
Upvote 0

Leuko Petra

Following The Lamb
Apr 8, 2013
610
6
Almost Home
✟831.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
...it may seem that 4 walls and a roof sights about sanctuary slipped out the door. ...

You also understand that ALL these matters from the Old Testament spoke of JESUS? Not 4 walls and a roof temple? ...
The Heavenly is far greater than the "pattern" of course [and who is saying otherwise?], even as the real vehicle is greater than the model toy whose image it is made after, but the "pattern" is made after the Heavenly none the less...

...and so, while the "pattern" had many artwork of "Cherubims" on walls, which surrounded God:

Moreover thou shalt make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubims of cunning work shalt thou make them. Exodus 26:1

And thou shalt make a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen of cunning work: with cherubims shall it be made: Exodus 26:31

And every wise hearted man among them that wrought the work of the tabernacle made ten curtains of fine twined linen, and blue, and purple, and scarlet: with cherubims of cunning work made he them. Exodus 36:8

And he made a vail of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen: with cherubims made he it of cunning work. Exodus 36:35

And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without. 1 Kings 6:29

The two doors also were of olive tree; and he carved upon them carvings of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid them with gold, and spread gold upon the cherubims, and upon the palm trees. 1 Kings 6:32

And he carved thereon cherubims and palm trees and open flowers: and covered them with gold fitted upon the carved work. 1 Kings 6:35

He overlaid also the house, the beams, the posts, and the walls thereof, and the doors thereof, with gold; and graved cherubims on the walls. 2 Chronicles 3:7

And it was made with cherubims and palm trees, so that a palm tree was between a cherub and a cherub; and every cherub had two faces; Ezekiel 41:18

From the ground unto above the door were cherubims and palm trees made, and on the wall of the temple. Ezekiel 41:20

And there were made on them, on the doors of the temple, cherubims and palm trees, like as were made upon the walls; and there were thick planks upon the face of the porch without. Ezekiel 41:25

...yet, in the real Heavenly Sanctuary, God is surrounded by real Angels/Cherubims, even ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands:

And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. Deuteronomy 33:2

The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place. Psalms 68:17

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. Daniel 7:10

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Jude 1:14

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Revelation 5:11

...thus we see that the OT "pattern" Sanctuary, given by God Himself, is again very relevant to Revelation...

...Jesus is standing amidst the 7 Candlesticks... which is found in the Holy Place of the Sanctuary...

...and as one moves through Revelation, we see further language of the Sanctuary, not only in items/furniture/elements [door, candlesticks, Throne, incense, altar, Ark, Commandments, etc, even of the very events also], but also of its religious Calender, as seen in Leviticus 16, 23, etc...

...but the very Structure of Revelation itself is given in the pattern of the 7 Branch Candlestick...
 
Upvote 0

squint

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2007
16,182
903
Mountain Regions
✟20,405.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Heavenly is far greater than the "pattern" of course [and who is saying otherwise?], even as the real vehicle is greater than the model toy whose image it is made after, but the "pattern" is made after the Heavenly none the less...

...and so, while the "pattern" had many artwork of "Cherubims" on walls, which surrounded God:

...thus we see that the OT "pattern" Sanctuary, given by God Himself, is again very relevant to Revelation...

What is it you don't get about multiple patterns? The latter/second temple was dramatically less fashionable and not even remotely close to as RICH as the FIRST MAN, SOLOMON'S temple.

Yet that second temple was more glorious in Gods Eyes:

Haggai 2:9
The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the Lord of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the Lord of hosts.

...Jesus is standing amidst the 7 Candlesticks... which is found in the Holy Place of the Sanctuary...

Uh, no. The Spirit of Christ abides within us.

Rev. 3:
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

If you think we are engaging real candlesticks, real doors, real knocking and door opening and a real chow as in meat and taters, I'd suggest that kind of literalism isn't doing you any favors.

...and as one moves through Revelation, we see further language of the Sanctuary, not only in items/furniture/elements [door, candlesticks, Throne, incense, altar, Ark, Commandments, etc, even of the very events also], but also of its religious Calender, as seen in Leviticus 16, 23, etc...

And I'd suggest that a literalist bent is not even remotely close to the subject matter.

Don't you know that God Is A Spirit?

Do you really think an Invisible Spirit needs 4 walls and a roof somewhere in never never land to live in?

I might suggest a LIVING HABITAT is more along the lines of what HE HAD in mind in sharing HIS SPIRIT within us.

...but the very Structure of Revelation itself is given in the pattern of the 7 Branch Candlestick...

I can only deem such sights as obsessively literal.

s
 
Upvote 0

Leuko Petra

Following The Lamb
Apr 8, 2013
610
6
Almost Home
✟831.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Private
...Rev. 3:
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me....
In the response - http://www.christianforums.com/t7779102-5/#post64286864 , in listing the various parts of the Heavenly Sanctuary "[door, candlesticks, Throne, incense, altar, Ark, Commandments, etc,...]", it was not at that point speaking of the "door" of the Heart, but rather of the following two doors:

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; Revelation 3:7

I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Revelation 3:8

...and...

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Revelation 4:1

...the first, being the second,...
...and the second, being the first...
 
Upvote 0

squint

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2007
16,182
903
Mountain Regions
✟20,405.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In the response - http://www.christianforums.com/t7779102-5/#post64286864 , in listing the various parts of the Heavenly Sanctuary "[door, candlesticks, Throne, incense, altar, Ark, Commandments, etc,...]", it was not at that point speaking of the "door" of the Heart, but rather of the following two doors:

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; Revelation 3:7

I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Revelation 3:8

...and...

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Revelation 4:1

...the first, being the second,...
...and the second, being the first...

as stated prior if you think Jesus is a doorman in some building in heaven, opening and closing some door or that a talking trumpet isn't an object lesson showing allegory let's call it square now and move on to more productive conversations.

If you understood allegory you'd also understand the key of David and the open closed door have similar/similitude intentions and that the one for whom the door will close is carried in our own hearts.

It's also the same vein that my earlier post addressing and showing the particulars of the WHO is the Woman/harlot on the beast.

s
 
Upvote 0

smashed4christ

Active Member
Sep 9, 2013
243
3
✟392.00
Faith
Christian
The beast was Rome and Isreal was the harlot who rode the beast

That was the first beast that had the mortal wound in 70AD and the husband less mother harlot was the levitical system that persecuted the first century church.

This however is mystery Babylon who sides with ten kings for one hour. This hour is the 11 hour before the end of the great harvest of God.

These ten kings have no earthly kingdom as such but receive power as kings for a very short time and side with mystery Babylon who has a standing Kingdom.

Now the ten kings are the heads of the ten Patriarchal denominations. If you count them, they are ten patriarchs who have recieved no earthly Kingdom but are given power like kings to act on behalf of mystery Babylon.

The papacy is a standing Kingdom and was established by a decree through Mousalini and the pope at that time and has a standing police force and swiss guard as its army.

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: (KJV)

The papacy through 70 to 80 consecutive popes had sanctioned the whole sale torture and murder at the behest of the popes the inquisitions that lasted 600 years and murdered 50 million plus Christians who would not bow down to the popes decrees.

This stands in history to be a criminal act against humanity that discloses the legacy of the murderous mystery Babylon harlot.

History speaks in volumes by the atrocious systematic slaughter of Christ's body of believers.

Now people may question the numbers but they can't question the legacy across 70 or 80 popes who committed these Haynes crime against humanity using the instrument of death that the harlot represented.

I can't account for any denominational system calling itself Christian that even comes close to it. We may hear of cults here and there, but never an organized slaughter machine that continued without cessation for 600 years.

The ecumenical movement with the ten Patriarchal denominational heads is the raising of CAIN!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,590
12,122
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,181,089.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Has anyone ever bothered to consider what the population of the regions were which supposedly suffered so much slaughter at the hands of the inquisition. I suspect the entire population must have been wiped out several times over with the numbers claimed.
 
Upvote 0

squint

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2007
16,182
903
Mountain Regions
✟20,405.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Has anyone ever bothered to consider what the population of the regions were which supposedly suffered so much slaughter at the hands of the inquisition. I suspect the entire population must have been wiped out several times over with the numbers claimed.

The fact that it happened is fact enough.

Christians are still trying to kill each others. Who are you kidding?
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,590
12,122
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,181,089.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
The fact that it happened is fact enough.

Christians are still trying to kill each others. Who are you kidding?
I'm not denying that such things took place, after all, we are still waiting for the return of innumerable relics and other precious items looted by the Latins from Constantinople during the infamous fourth crusade. It would be nice, however if people were to post facts rather than make ludicrous accusations, don't you agree?
 
Upvote 0

squint

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2007
16,182
903
Mountain Regions
✟20,405.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not denying that such things took place, after all, we are still waiting for the return of innumerable relics and other precious items looted by the Latins from Constantinople during the infamous fourth crusade. It would be nice, however if people were to post facts rather than make ludicrous accusations, don't you agree?

It would be most foolish NOT to be suspicious of religious organizations that could foster such things, such brutal atrocities into our societies. In the RCC for example, many of the German atrocities of the holocaust were taken right from the pages of "Cum nimis absurdum" of RCC origin. It's also part of why the RCC made a public apology for being such idiots on this matter.

So NUMBER COUNTING is relative to who is doing the counting.

A virtual killing machine in the Name of God can not be any more horrific for the world. And the RCC takes top prize for that one. Their internal system still contains ALL the components to RECREATE that situation in very short order, so don't EVER kid yourself.

It really is NOT a forgive and forget situation. It is a dangerous heartless machine that could turn sour in a heartbeat. Death to others is still inscribed into it's system in case you hadn't noticed. But then again that is a part of the 'orthodox package' anyway. Eternal Death is the banner all these sects fly to other believing competitors.

A bunch of sick sick people. Worrying about relics? zzzzz

All that being said I still would not say the RCC is the harlot of Mystery Babylon, much as I'd like to make that connection.

It's just not there to make. The harlot of Mystery Babylon is much closer to each of us as individuals. And that is also why few people will ever see it.

Believers are still obsessed with vaunting the possibility of eternal death on other believers, and in that the churches are SICK to the deepest levels.

'COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE' is a call to all of us.

s
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Fireinfolding

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2006
27,263
4,084
The South
✟121,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Heres a few verses which show how we can become a cage of (habitation of) or hold of every foul unclean thing shown as birds

Romans 3:3 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Whereas here it says

Prov 26:24 He that hateth dissembleth with his lips, and layeth up deceit within him;


Romans 3:3 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:


Jerm 5:27 As a cage
is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.

Is become the same here...

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

So shows in one their houses and where there is strife and envy there is confusion (thus even the name of it) where it speaks of the same becoming a habitation of, hold of, and cage of unclean hateful birds also shown as deceit and how thats laid up in a man.

Also one can look up causing the unclean spirit to pass from the land, and how Jesus shows the same of an unclean spirit passing out of a man in respects to a wicked generation, and notice the number there (on the returning of the same) and then count those things pertaining to the state Paul hoped not to find them in, in 2 Cr 12:20 because thee numbers match between the two also.

Being filled in otherwords, whether filled with the fruits of righteousness which is by Christ Jesus or being filled with all unrighteousness, being filled is also by the fruit of the lips also though.


 
Upvote 0

sonshine234

Well-Known Member
Nov 10, 2012
1,392
87
✟2,002.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
That was the first beast that had the mortal wound in 70AD and the husband less mother harlot was the levitical system that persecuted the first century church.

This however is mystery Babylon who sides with ten kings for one hour. This hour is the 11 hour before the end of the great harvest of God.

These ten kings have no earthly kingdom as such but receive power as kings for a very short time and side with mystery Babylon who has a standing Kingdom.

Now the ten kings are the heads of the ten Patriarchal denominations. If you count them, they are ten patriarchs who have recieved no earthly Kingdom but are given power like kings to act on behalf of mystery Babylon.

The papacy is a standing Kingdom and was established by a decree through Mousalini and the pope at that time and has a standing police force and swiss guard as its army.

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: (KJV)

The papacy through 70 to 80 consecutive popes had sanctioned the whole sale torture and murder at the behest of the popes the inquisitions that lasted 600 years and murdered 50 million plus Christians who would not bow down to the popes decrees.

This stands in history to be a criminal act against humanity that discloses the legacy of the murderous mystery Babylon harlot.

History speaks in volumes by the atrocious systematic slaughter of Christ's body of believers.

Now people may question the numbers but they can't question the legacy across 70 or 80 popes who committed these Haynes crime against humanity using the instrument of death that the harlot represented.

I can't account for any denominational system calling itself Christian that even comes close to it. We may hear of cults here and there, but never an organized slaughter machine that continued without cessation for 600 years.

The ecumenical movement with the ten Patriarchal denominational heads is the raising of CAIN!
Actually I question all Protestant invention. Revelation is not a mysterious book it was written in the first century to Christians living then it is not for now
 
Upvote 0

squint

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2007
16,182
903
Mountain Regions
✟20,405.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Actually I question all Protestant invention. Revelation is not a mysterious book it was written in the first century to Christians living then it is not for now

Simple logic might dictate otherwise.

Revelation is by no means a past away historical document anymore than the Word Himself is no longer alive and active.

IF there are Gods Words in Revelation, then GODS WORDS are alive and active.

and there are Gods Words therein...

therefore it is applicable.

s
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,588
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Originally Posted by squint
The fact that it happened is fact enough.

Christians are still trying to kill each others. Who are you kidding?
Me wonders how many have been killed in the name of religion since the 1st century?

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus
JESUS VS THE PHARISEES

Matt 23:34 "Because of this behold! I am commissioning toward ye Prophets and Wisemen and Scribes.
Out of them ye shall be killing and ye shall be crucifying.
And out of them ye shall be scourging in the synagogues of ye.....

John 16:2
Putting out of the synagogues they shall be doing ye.
But is coming an hour that every the one killing ye should be supposing a divine service to be offering to the God

images
...........
TheBlogFromTheCore20060202e.jpg




.
 
  • Like
Reactions: brinny
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

steve_bakr

Christian
Aug 3, 2011
5,918
240
✟22,533.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Simple logic might dictate otherwise.

Revelation is by no means a past away historical document anymore than the Word Himself is no longer alive and active.

IF there are Gods Words in Revelation, then GODS WORDS are alive and active.

and there are Gods Words therein...

therefore it is applicable.

s

The Book of Revelations was addressed to the persecuted Church at the end of the 1st century. It is not an eyewitness account of predermined future events, especially since the future has open possibilities.

If you don't mind reading, I would refer you to Karl Rahner's "The Hermeneutics of Eschatological Assertions" from Theological Investigations. But it is out of print, so you could instead read the chapter on Eschatology in The Theology of Karl Rahner (Buller), downloadable on your Kindle (searchword: Rahner).
 
Upvote 0