What has this world come to? Transgender bathroom setups?
- Thread starter gurneyhalleck1
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There is a knee-jerk reaction from many people to feel that a certain group is being picked on. A good example is the gay community. Some "straight" heterosexual Christians see their brethren criticizing and condemning the gay lifestyle, and their knee-jerk reaction is to think the people who suffer same-sex attraction are being "judged" to hell by their fellow Christians in question. They feel the SSA person or persons are being unjustly condemned and ripped-apart, so they use the Tupac "you don't know me, don't judge me!" approach. It comes from a good place (the desire to NOT pick on people and focus on our own sins), but in the end they inadvertently just skim over the sin and soften it up to be not so bad.
You were not judging anyone. Salvation or damnation lies in God's judgment seat alone. You were merely pointing out the absurdity of the sin and the fact that we cannot all sit idly by and say nothing as our culture and Christian society rapidly falls into relativistic "I'm ok, you're ok" subjectivism. I've read your posts long enough to know your humility in admitting your sinfulness and total need for Christ. I appreciate your balance of recognizing this need for the Lord's grace WHILE calling a spade a spade. We as Orthodox Christians have a duty to the Truth AND a duty to admit we fall short of it.
Nice post, Rus.
You were not judging anyone. Salvation or damnation lies in God's judgment seat alone. You were merely pointing out the absurdity of the sin and the fact that we cannot all sit idly by and say nothing as our culture and Christian society rapidly falls into relativistic "I'm ok, you're ok" subjectivism. I've read your posts long enough to know your humility in admitting your sinfulness and total need for Christ. I appreciate your balance of recognizing this need for the Lord's grace WHILE calling a spade a spade. We as Orthodox Christians have a duty to the Truth AND a duty to admit we fall short of it.
Nice post, Rus.
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what stuff like this usually boils down to is that folks refuse to see the differnce between the person and the sin. it is not loving to just stand by, mouth closed, while people do things that are spiritually (and eternally) destructive. people also often confuse acceptence with tolerance.
great posts rus and gurney
great posts rus and gurney
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GregConstantine
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@Kristos,
"I sport my birthday suit whenever possible - no big whoop"
You like to hang naked?
"I sport my birthday suit whenever possible - no big whoop"
You like to hang naked?
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I just wanted to reply to one thing here. "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" is generally a term used by the inappropriate contentography industry to describe pre-op male-to-female transsexuals, not female-to-male. Also, outside of that industry, it is generally considered a very serious insult, right along with "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]". I would recommend that you don't use either term. You could, potentially, get a violent response from a trans person if you do.
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MariaRegina
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I think as Orthodox Christians we have the right to rail against modernity. What is frustrating is that we can't ever complain about the gay agenda, transgender bathrooms, abortion, divorce/remarriage, cohabitation, an oversexed society, social brainwashing, atheism, and a host of other issues in the public square. I can't complain or vent about my frustrations about the world going to Gehenna in a hand basket at work, in the newspaper, or pretty much anywhere for fear of losing my job or getting the persecution on my family and loved ones....
One would think we, as Orthodox, could come into TAW and it could be a safe haven to discuss our frustrations with a world gone mad. Whether it be Rus's (valid) frustration with society's misuse of our language to manipulate people and promote evil ideas through subtle conventions, or Dan's disgust over abortion, or just me venting about how I can't get over our society has sunk so low, we should be able to discuss these things without them devolving into "stop judging people, man!" and "don't pick on this poor guy!" type charges.
Nothing I have said, nothing MariaRegina has said, Rus, or anyone has said have been personal. It has been about ideas. And in our humble opinions, public bathroom laws regarding transgenders are insane.
It would be great if we could get to a point where posters quit attributing a personal direct address element to any societal corruption comment made.
One would think we, as Orthodox, could come into TAW and it could be a safe haven to discuss our frustrations with a world gone mad. Whether it be Rus's (valid) frustration with society's misuse of our language to manipulate people and promote evil ideas through subtle conventions, or Dan's disgust over abortion, or just me venting about how I can't get over our society has sunk so low, we should be able to discuss these things without them devolving into "stop judging people, man!" and "don't pick on this poor guy!" type charges.
Nothing I have said, nothing MariaRegina has said, Rus, or anyone has said have been personal. It has been about ideas. And in our humble opinions, public bathroom laws regarding transgenders are insane.
It would be great if we could get to a point where posters quit attributing a personal direct address element to any societal corruption comment made.
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MariaRegina
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NOW FOR AN INTERMISSION
Many years ago, I visited the Anaheim Convention Center. They had a guard stationed at every entrance to restrooms, those for men and those for women. So, that when an intermission was scheduled, these rent-a-cops could open the mens' room to the ladies after they cleared out the men for a few moments. Then they would call on their walkies and advise another guard to keep one or two men's restrooms open only to men.
Because of this constant change, sometimes mistakes happened and the guards were powerless to stop these mistakes.
A Catholic nun in her complete monastic garb came running into a men's restroom before the guard could catch her. My, was she in a hurry! Her veil was flying.
Well, in less than a minute, she was flying out of that bathroom like she was on fire. In her haste, she lost her veil, and had to go back to the guard to retrieve it.
Lord have mercy.
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GregConstantine
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@MariaRegina,
I'm not sure I completey agree with you about nudity. Guys are not "forced" into locker rooms or "forced" into showers. We use locker rooms and showers when we participate in sporting events and working out for purely practical reasons.
I don't think there is anything wrong with nudity amongst those of the same gender. Some guys in fact find spending time naked with other guys a male bonding experience that is not at all sexual. Take for example the tradition of the Bana baths in Russia, or pretty much anywhere else in the world.
We as a society and culture have an illness in which we sexualize everything, including nudity. I think the prevelence of the confusion about sexuality in our culture has alot to do with this sexualization of everything. For example, if two guys are very close, express physical affection for each other in public, and love each other in a fraternal way, they are immediately assumed to be gay and to be having sex with each other.
Women I don't think get this completly because society is more accepting of them being close and expressing physical affection to each other. For example, girls call their friends "girlfriends" and no one assumes they are lesbians, but what happens if I were to call one of my guy friends "boyfriend"? Assumptions will be made! Us guys have to sometimes be careful about how we interact with our guy friends in public.
My main point is nudity amongst those of the same gender in the appropriate context is fine.
I'm not sure I completey agree with you about nudity. Guys are not "forced" into locker rooms or "forced" into showers. We use locker rooms and showers when we participate in sporting events and working out for purely practical reasons.
I don't think there is anything wrong with nudity amongst those of the same gender. Some guys in fact find spending time naked with other guys a male bonding experience that is not at all sexual. Take for example the tradition of the Bana baths in Russia, or pretty much anywhere else in the world.
We as a society and culture have an illness in which we sexualize everything, including nudity. I think the prevelence of the confusion about sexuality in our culture has alot to do with this sexualization of everything. For example, if two guys are very close, express physical affection for each other in public, and love each other in a fraternal way, they are immediately assumed to be gay and to be having sex with each other.
Women I don't think get this completly because society is more accepting of them being close and expressing physical affection to each other. For example, girls call their friends "girlfriends" and no one assumes they are lesbians, but what happens if I were to call one of my guy friends "boyfriend"? Assumptions will be made! Us guys have to sometimes be careful about how we interact with our guy friends in public.
My main point is nudity amongst those of the same gender in the appropriate context is fine.
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MariaRegina
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I think girls are different.
I remember when we had to use a locker room for sports. There were girls with huge or tiny boobs who would face extreme mocking and suffer a lot of insults. Most of us got two towels so that we would not have to face ridicule. However, some teachers gave us only one towel, and then we had to stand naked in front of our smiling female teachers as we exchanged our wet towel for a dry one. It was horrible. We thought that those teachers were SICK spiritually and mentally. It gave us the creeps.
We found a way to beat their wicked system.
We would take our shower and use the towel to cover ourselves while the shower water splashed all over us and the towel
Then we would go dripping wet to our locker. Take out our beach towel from home, dry off, and then bring that dripping wet towel back to the shower room and toss it to the teacher. Then she got a bath too. They stopped being so controlling.
SWEET REVENGE!
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Maria Regina - Aspergers is a recognised condition - please do not abbreviate it .
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MKJ
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I think girls here are so shy in locker rooms largely because we are so culturally weird about breasts. The only time we see them publicly is in ads and such when they are highly sexualized, and when they are under clothes they all look fairy similar - and often are made to look more similar than they really are.
It's only when you see a lot of them in that you realize that there are a lot of differences, and when you are used to non-threatening nudity that you see they are not only part of sex.
lack of visible public breastfeeding is part of the problem too, and it suffers from the same attitude that it must be sexual.
It is a bit like the effect of having women wear a burqua, strangely enough - both cultures see the body as only sexual, and so their attitudes toward it, and the people in it, suffer.
It's only when you see a lot of them in that you realize that there are a lot of differences, and when you are used to non-threatening nudity that you see they are not only part of sex.
lack of visible public breastfeeding is part of the problem too, and it suffers from the same attitude that it must be sexual.
It is a bit like the effect of having women wear a burqua, strangely enough - both cultures see the body as only sexual, and so their attitudes toward it, and the people in it, suffer.
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MariaRegina
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There was a woman in San Diego who was part of a news cast on TV. Obviously, she was breastfeeding as one breast was huge in proportion to the other. That did not escape attention, and then there was a story about her breasts on the news.
Weird.
That is cruel. Could that be why some women stay at home and will not venture out?
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MKJ
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Wow, that is so rude!
Yes, things like that are why a lot of people feel uncomfortable in public I think. In some places people get harassed as well and asked to leave or do it in a toilet stall (very gross), or there are not good places to sit and nurse in public settings.
What is sad is that it really discourages a lot of women from nursing at all, if they can't be out and about. And it cuts them off from other people, which is a risk factor for PPD.
It is funny though - you can go back 100 years and find all kinds of photos of women in the US breastfeeding openly in public, in train stations, meetings, and such, in mixed groups.
It doesn't take long for the social norms to change. I guess that should be reassuring though - they could change back.
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