Legal victory for fired transgendered teacher in suit against Catholic school

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Cute Tink

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Personally, I don't check out the genitals of people I meet. How do think that you will know not to treat such a person as a woman? And what terrible thing would happen if you considered this person as presented, without checking? Do you ask about sexual orientation also?

I'm not trying to be silly here. The reality is if someone presents themselves as a male, the society will treat them as such. If they present as a female, the society will treat them as such. We are talking of public, social settings.

Generally this is true. I would say it might be closer to say that in social settings, (most) people treat others according to their perceived gender. Whether that perception is correct or not is unclear in some cases.
 
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Sumwear

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I'm not trying to be silly here. The reality is if someone presents themselves as a male, the society will treat them as such. If they present as a female, the society will treat them as such. We are talking of public, social settings.

tad bit more difficult when you have a teacher that wants his class referring to him a mr. k and then looking like this:

8986921_600x338.jpg


then changes his name to marla.
 
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1Feather

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Fair enough. Commonly? Because I have spoken to several (though hardly a majority) and I have never heard it and I've never said it myself.
Commonly? I don't have a large community of trans that I intermingle with so as to say that. But I have heard it on more than one occasion.



Yes, because those of us who have developed breasts are going to fit in so well in a men's room.
Those of you who have a penis expect to fit in well in a women's room.
I've not ever seen a trans-male that allows her breasts to be obvious. Also, I can't imagine where it would be necessary for a trans-male go go topless in the men's room, so that the breast issue wouldn't actually be one.


That's odd, because my gym has that exact accomodation. Curtained off showers... not that expensive. Curtained off changing areas... not that expensive.
That's do-able.

So your solution is that people who don't really fit in either category go where their genitals belong, regardless of how it looks when they walk in. Because exposing your genitals is required (apparently). You assume that, I suppose, everyone MtF who undergoes transition looks male until the moment they get surgery, then they look female. So there won't be any question when someone who responds to hormones better, or who transitioned earlier, or even someone who (for whatever reason) just looks more female to start, isn't going to be questioned when using the men's locker room.

Breasts are fine in the men's room? Please clarify.
Again, if penis' are fine in the women's room. Oh, but that's tucked up, right? Well, the breasts of trans-men are usually either surgically removed or they're strapped down. And since going topless isn't necessary in a men's room, the chest area in a men's room isn't really an issue now is it?
 
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united4Peace

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curious here...

I know a good handful, (between 5-10) women who were born women, 100% female, and they get called "sir" and mistaken on a regular basis as a male! They dress for comfort, some wear make-up, however they have masculine features and some even have masculine voices! Sooo where should they go?

I remember one girl, very pretty girl from the back, turned around and her face looked like a male's! Huge mustache to boot!! Yes, she could have shaved as most women do (most women-as they age, have a mustache or chin hairs and keep it shaved), however this girl, being the religion she was, shaving was not an option!!

What about guys that have feminine voices and look very feminine? I've made the mistake of classifying a guy as a girl and visa versa, felt horrible for doing so!!

Almost as bad as when one asks when a female is due!! So now I just don't bother asking, as I realize how rude it is!
 
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united4Peace

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It is insulting to those with the health issues like what you named that you equate something like heart disease to transgenderism.
quote]

a heart defect is not a heart disease. A person can be born with a hole in their heart, or be born with their heart on the right side of their body, rather than the left side...this is not a heart disease. Heart disease would be cardiovascular disease, related to smoking, eating unhealthy, lack of activity....etc.
 
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united4Peace

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Not every prostitute is a victim of human trafficking. . . not even most I would say. Some are and they are victims. The ones who chose that lifestyle on their own are not victims.

I highly doubt many (women and men) choose this lifestyle on their own!!
Please read the links I provided, most prostitutes are in the lifestyle as they have been abused in the past, are still being abused, are addicts (again most people don't want to grow up to be addicts, which is why addicts need help as well, not looked down upon), etc.

Maybe Im just a bleeding heart Canadian, however I think more could be done if people helped put a stop to human trafficking, sex abuse, physical abuse, mental abuse, spiritual abuse and financial abuse...abuse in general!! People need to take a stand and no longer allow women or men to be abused! People need to take a stand and help those with addictions, again may have to go back to why one is addicted in order to help, as most addicts suffer from severe depression, other mental illnesses and have been abused by others. Or they may have suffered a loss in there lives and not had the proper tools provided to deal with life and have snapped.

Please do not blame the victims, as that is what prostitutes (female and male) and addicts are, they are victims of a society that has failed them!!
 
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GenetoJean

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Just found this thread. I am in a tough position about things like this. I believe the teacher should have moved to a new place to teach. I believe religious institutions should have the right to have who they want to working for them. As far as bathrooms, since I am not looking into the stalls or pulling down my pants outside the stalls, then I dont see a problem with using the female restroom. As far as locker rooms, if there is no private place to change I will not remove my clothes in female changing areas or take showers. If I eventually have bottom surgery then I will start using female changing rooms and showers.

On the argument about demanding to be a different race, if that is the only way that will make a group productive members of society then so be it.

If there was a treatment that would make me mentally stable staying as the gender I was born, I would take it. Since there is not, I am transitioning.
 
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Wolseley

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tad bit more difficult when you have a teacher that wants his class referring to him a mr. k and then looking like this:

8986921_600x338.jpg


then changes his name to marla.

That picture reminds me of a birthday card my sister sent to me years ago. On the outside it said, "I'm sure grateful you're my brother." Open it up, and on the inside it said, "You'd make one heck of an ugly-looking sister!"

Whatever he wants, I guess.....but bow-wow. :sick:
 
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WarriorAngel

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LoAmmi

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I find the issue one that's hard for me to really comprehend and make a decision on. I really don't know what it would be like to feel like a woman or believe I was a woman. It is a foreign concept to me. So, I can't even really know what it would feel like. On the other hand, I completely understand people not being comfortable with someone who physically has the characteristics of the opposite sex sharing a bathroom with them. I don't really know what to think on the issue.

Just to note, I am not talking about people who have genetic disorders and the like. Those are rare and can probably be handled on a case-by-case basis. The condition I described earlier where the person is fully genetically male but looks female is something different.
 
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Cute Tink

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Those of you who have a penis expect to fit in well in a women's room.
I've not ever seen a trans-male that allows her breasts to be obvious. Also, I can't imagine where it would be necessary for a trans-male go go topless in the men's room, so that the breast issue wouldn't actually be one.

Again, if penis' are fine in the women's room. Oh, but that's tucked up, right? Well, the breasts of trans-men are usually either surgically removed or they're strapped down. And since going topless isn't necessary in a men's room, the chest area in a men's room isn't really an issue now is it?

I really don't get your line of reasoning. It's more likely to remove both your pants and underwear in a locker room than your shirt? In a country where it is far more common for men to walk around without shirts on than for women to walk around with no pants on. That just doesn't make sense to me.

I wasn't referring to trans-men walking around shirtless in the men's locker room and having their breasts hanging out. I was referring to trans-women revealing their breasts in the men's locker room. I am a trans-woman and hormones have already caused breast development.

For the record, trans-men are just about as likely to have their breasts removed or strapped down as trans-women are to be tucked away. So your difference you are claiming is meaningless. Just because some trans people lack tact, doesn't mean we all do.

That's do-able.

The accomodations wouldn't be all that difficult.
 
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Luther073082

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I have spent some time thinking about your list of ways you expect to be treated as a Cherokee. Just to be sure, despite this being rather off topic, is this what it means to you to identify as Cherokee?

Why not. . . transgendered people have been pushing for the right for people with penis's to play on women's sports teams, share their bathrooms and locker rooms, etc.

They are essentially pushing for the entire world to treat them as a woman despite the fact that they where at least born with testicles and a penis.

I don't understand personally what it is to feel like a woman or feel like a man. I've identified myself as a man because I'm an adult human with male characteristics. Any idea of "feeling like a man" is typically based on something entirely cultural.

See both gender and race to me (in the worldly sense) are close to the same to me in that it exists on 2 levels. One level is what a person physically is. Although I admit genetics muddy up the situation a little, most of our determination is based on appearances. My wife may be 1/32 Cherokee and her father 1/16th. (I think it's her father's side) but in reality both her and her father identify themselves as white. Probably because that is what they appear to be.

The other level is how the world treats you.

Now for the vast majority of the population people treat them as the race and gender that they are. To me trans-gender people may be physically male or female, but they want the world to treat them as the other gender.

So in my view if a man can go around trying to tell the world to treat him as a woman, which seems to include using women's bathrooms, playing on women's basketball teams, etc etc. And that this is acceptable. . . then why in the world is it not acceptable for someone to change races or ethnicity and expect everyone to treat them as a member of a different race or ethnic group?

And quite frankly if we can just be whatever we "feel" we are and expect people to treat us that way. . . then I see some very dark days for humanity ahead as everyone will soon devolve themselves into a fantasy world that their peers will be forced to play along with.
 
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united4Peace

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I am 100% female, born and raised female, yet I have been mistaken a number of times as a male as I have male characteristics...so which bathroom or change room should I use?? I know other females who look very masculine (more so than I do) who are 100% females as well.
 
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Cute Tink

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And quite frankly if we can just be whatever we "feel" we are and expect people to treat us that way. . . then I see some very dark days for humanity ahead as everyone will soon devolve themselves into a fantasy world that their peers will be forced to play along with.

Snipped for brevity.

I can't speak for all trans people, but this is how this impacts me. I don't expect to be treated like a female, I just hope for it. I am not transitioning to be treated like a female. I am not transitioning because of some desire to break into the other bathroom or locker room. I am not doing so to be on sports teams. I am transitioning because my body is not me, not comfortable and disgusts me. I am transitioning for me, not society.

I believe that my brain is actually an important part of me. It tells me my body is wrong. You believe otherwise. I can't do anything about that.

I don't think there are many trans people who are transitioning because they want access to other bathrooms, locker rooms, sports teams, etc. I think it is more likely that they are transitioning and they still want to play sports and they don't want to be outed on a constant basis, because that does actually create a danger. So a person wearing a dress wants to quietly go into the women's bathroom because going into the men's room in a dress grabs attention.

People like what they like, want what they want no matter what their situation in life is. I don't think that it is too much to ask for people to be treated with respect. There are going to be indecent people and troublemakers no matter what you do. The assumption that we all have some nefarious purpose is unsupportable (not saying you are doing this, but I have seen some who do believe this).

Frankly, I expect to get treated like garbage or as a freak most of the time. Fortunately for me, I most often don't. Oddly, I get more trouble here than I do in real life where people actually see me. Internet anonymity I guess.
 
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LoAmmi

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And that this is acceptable. . . then why in the world is it not acceptable for someone to change races or ethnicity and expect everyone to treat them as a member of a different race or ethnic group?

This actually can happen. I mean, the best example I can give is a conversion to Judaism. They become part of the Jewish "race" or ethnic group. I've seen other groups with similar practices.
 
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Luther073082

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This actually can happen. I mean, the best example I can give is a conversion to Judaism. They become part of the Jewish "race" or ethnic group. I've seen other groups with similar practices.

That's because Judaism is both a religion and an ethnic group and perhaps the religious Jews consider the two to be one in the same. . .

However in most cases it's not possible.
 
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Luther073082

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I don't understand why people on either side are so hung up on who goes into which bathroom or even lockerroom.

Because I don't want to be in the men's bathroom with a person who's really a woman.

And I don't want my wife in the women's bathroom with someone who's really a man.

I mean honestly if that's how we're gonna treat this then we might as well just go for broke, eliminate men's and women's restrooms and just make one big public restroom where everyone goes to the bathroom.

Until then though the men's bathroom should be only for people who where born with male genetila and vice versa.
 
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Luther073082

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Snipped for brevity.

I can't speak for all trans people, but this is how this impacts me. I don't expect to be treated like a female, I just hope for it. I am not transitioning to be treated like a female. I am not transitioning because of some desire to break into the other bathroom or locker room. I am not doing so to be on sports teams. I am transitioning because my body is not me, not comfortable and disgusts me. I am transitioning for me, not society.

I believe that my brain is actually an important part of me. It tells me my body is wrong. You believe otherwise. I can't do anything about that.

I don't think there are many trans people who are transitioning because they want access to other bathrooms, locker rooms, sports teams, etc. I think it is more likely that they are transitioning and they still want to play sports and they don't want to be outed on a constant basis, because that does actually create a danger. So a person wearing a dress wants to quietly go into the women's bathroom because going into the men's room in a dress grabs attention.

People like what they like, want what they want no matter what their situation in life is. I don't think that it is too much to ask for people to be treated with respect. There are going to be indecent people and troublemakers no matter what you do. The assumption that we all have some nefarious purpose is unsupportable (not saying you are doing this, but I have seen some who do believe this).

Frankly, I expect to get treated like garbage or as a freak most of the time. Fortunately for me, I most often don't. Oddly, I get more trouble here than I do in real life where people actually see me. Internet anonymity I guess.

Do the women in those bathrooms know you are really a man?

Cause in all honesty if I went into a public bathroom and saw a woman, dressed like a man or not, I'd walk out and find someplace else to do whatever it was that I was intending on doing.
 
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LoAmmi

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Because I don't want to be in the men's bathroom with a person who's really a woman.

And I don't want my wife in the women's bathroom with someone who's really a man.

I mean honestly if that's how we're gonna treat this then we might as well just go for broke, eliminate men's and women's restrooms and just make one big public restroom where everyone goes to the bathroom.

Until then though the men's bathroom should be only for people who where born with male genetila and vice versa.

I wouldn't be opposed to just having one big bathroom with individual stalls for everybody. Expensive, but it would fix this problem pretty quickly.
 
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