Legal victory for fired transgendered teacher in suit against Catholic school

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Tallguy88

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Cute Tink said:
If you can find a study showing that there is an actual brain composition difference between the brains of different races, then I'll start giving you some credibility. If you can show that your skin color and features are giving you dysphoria that you find depressing and even crippling, then I'll give you some credibility.

Until then, you are doing nothing more than mocking a horrifying condition, which I suffer from, that a lot of people have found so terrible that we often try to kill ourselves (and far too many succeed). Treatment by society (which is commonly treating us like freaks, beating, raping and murdering us) doesn't make it any better.

So if you want to be treated like a black man or an asian, more power to you. Have at it. I'm not even sure what that means exactly. Feel free to fill me in on how I can treat you appropriately. Your comment about changing it every day is just an insult, really. You want to act like this is just a joke, but it seems more like you just don't know anything about it at all. I gave you an invitation to learn by giving you sources. I would appreciate you taking the time to educate yourself instead of continuing to act like it's a joke. It's been destroying my life for years and has come close to succeeding more than once. Thank you.

Pay no heed to the bullies. Jesus didn't tell his followers to ridicule and belittle sinners. Especially when the "sin" is genetic and/or psychological in nature. He told us to love, encourage, and pray for one another.

I think if purgatory is real, some people will get to experience the lives of those they mocked, ridiculed, and looked down upon as a part of their penance.
 
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Cute Tink

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Pay no heed to the bullies. Jesus didn't tell his followers to ridicule and belittle sinners. Especially when the "sin" is genetic and/or psychological in nature. He told us to love, encourage, and pray for one another.

I think if purgatory is real, some people will get to experience the lives of those they mocked, ridiculed, and looked down upon as a part of their penance.

I wouldn't wish that on anyone. All I'm hoping for is that people will stop belittling those who have this problem. Well, stop that and the abuse.
 
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united4Peace

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That's funny because prostitution is not illegal everywhere. It is mostly legal in Europe, and some counties in Nevada for example. What if this is a place where it's legal?

Also many of the men who visit with prostitutes are men who are on the fringe of society and in need of love and support. Not every man is like that sure, but if you read a lot of people in that industry will tell you that most of their clients are very lonely people.

Of course society will somehow try to tell you the prostitutes are the victim in all of this.

As I am not Catholic I cannot post an argument either way. However I do need to say something about this post.

Yes many prostitutes are victims. Girls (nor boys) have a desire to become prostitutes when they grow up.
Many prostitutes are beaten, and are not able to get away from prostitution as they are in fear of their lives, and their families lives. Many prostitutes start off as children, forced into the lifestyle!

“New crime” of Sex Trafficking has been around a long time | Las Vegas Tribune

Human Trafficking Facts | Sex Slavery and Trafficking | Soroptimist

End human trafficking | Canadianwomen.org

Please don't blame prostitutes...instead reach out and help fight human trafficking!! (and then report me for posting in a catholic thread...sorry) :(
 
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Tallguy88

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united4Peace said:
As I am not Catholic I cannot post an argument either way. However I do need to say something about this post.

Yes many prostitutes are victims. Girls (nor boys) have a desire to become prostitutes when they grow up.
Many prostitutes are beaten, and are not able to get away from prostitution as they are in fear of their lives, and their families lives. Many prostitutes start off as children, forced into the lifestyle!

“New crime” of Sex Trafficking has been around a long time | Las Vegas Tribune

Human Trafficking Facts | Sex Slavery and Trafficking | Soroptimist

End human trafficking | Canadianwomen.org

Please don't blame prostitutes...instead reach out and help fight human trafficking!! (and then report me for posting in a catholic thread...sorry) :(

You're not debating catholic theology, so no worries.
 
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mark46

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Welcome!

The rules prohibit you from discussing Catholic doctrine, ther than to ask questions. Also, you may not speak against any teaching of the Church.

You are certainly welcome to post, and to discuss, subject to the above limitations.

Clearly, there are many place in the world where male and female prostitutes are abused and brought into the trade at any early age, under duress. Many try, and fail, to get out. These folks certainly deserve our help. Human trafficking is a world disgrace. I would note that such trafficking is for the purpose of slavery (servanthood) as well as prostitution.
========

Of course, prostitution is simply the usual OBOB red herring to avoid any real discussion of anything relating to sexual orientation or sexual activity. In addition to sexual matters, we often choose to dismiss any recognition of psychological/mental disorders. As our ancestors. we prefer to believe that sexual behavior that we disapprove of is caused by demonic forces and limited will power.

And finally, many here prefer for society to prohibit what they disapprove of. We carry our prejudices right beneath the surface.

The situation described in this post is a sad one.



As I am not Catholic I cannot post an argument either way. However I do need to say something about this post.

Yes many prostitutes are victims. Girls (nor boys) have a desire to become prostitutes when they grow up.
Many prostitutes are beaten, and are not able to get away from prostitution as they are in fear of their lives, and their families lives. Many prostitutes start off as children, forced into the lifestyle!

“New crime” of Sex Trafficking has been around a long time | Las Vegas Tribune

Human Trafficking Facts | Sex Slavery and Trafficking | Soroptimist

End human trafficking | Canadianwomen.org

Please don't blame prostitutes...instead reach out and help fight human trafficking!! (and then report me for posting in a catholic thread...sorry) :(
 
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Godssontoo

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The article is ambiguous at best , the judge cites the teachers 32 year teaching history as part of his decision , but it does not say if it was at that school , how long his carrer was at the catholic school , what prior agreements they had on record for employment and many more questions .

To me this sounds like a ploy the gay movement would and most likely does use , sending in known homosexual and bi sexual set ups to Christian programs to push their agenda through the biased courts .

If the man know feminin looking man made a carrer at that school then he should have been forced into retirement by the school , if he , she , it was a new hire then bye bye for not being honest on your job application in a KNOWN CHRISTIAN JOB . I doubt the guy said I want to be a he she over night .
 
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Luther073082

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As I am not Catholic I cannot post an argument either way. However I do need to say something about this post.

Yes many prostitutes are victims. Girls (nor boys) have a desire to become prostitutes when they grow up.
Many prostitutes are beaten, and are not able to get away from prostitution as they are in fear of their lives, and their families lives. Many prostitutes start off as children, forced into the lifestyle!

“New crime” of Sex Trafficking has been around a long time | Las Vegas Tribune

Human Trafficking Facts | Sex Slavery and Trafficking | Soroptimist

End human trafficking | Canadianwomen.org

Please don't blame prostitutes...instead reach out and help fight human trafficking!! (and then report me for posting in a catholic thread...sorry) :(

Not every prostitute is a victim of human trafficking. . . not even most I would say. Some are and they are victims. The ones who chose that lifestyle on their own are not victims.
 
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Luther073082

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I wouldn't wish that on anyone. All I'm hoping for is that people will stop belittling those who have this problem. Well, stop that and the abuse.

Not belittling you. . . but if you want to be a woman, look like a woman, act like a woman. . . that's fine, for the most part I don't care. That isn't going to make me consider you a woman anymore then I consider myself Cherokee.

BUT (and this is the main issue) you should not expect the unquestioned right to be able to teach in a religious private school.
 
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Cute Tink

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Not belittling you. . . but if you want to be a woman, look like a woman, act like a woman. . . that's fine, for the most part I don't care. That isn't going to make me consider you a woman anymore then I consider myself Cherokee.

You don't have to consider me anything. I'm asking for politeness, or at the very least, no rudeness.

BUT (and this is the main issue) you should not expect the unquestioned right to be able to teach in a religious private school.

And I wouldn't.
 
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But the person in this suit IS. And that is the problem.

Frankly I've never understood why one would try so hard to be where one is not welcome when there are other options. You'll note, though, that I have not once in this topic stated that the teacher was right in suing. I think she should try to find a different job, one where she is more welcome.

My opinion would change if the law provided that as an option for all employers across the state. That doesn't leave options.
 
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1Feather

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I posted 2 links with studies. It is not a "mental issue" and it is not hormonal. Therapy alone doesn't seem to help. They tried.

As to God making mistakes, who is saying it is a mistake? Either a) God intended for this to be or b) God isn't as involved in reproduction results as it seems. There are hermaphrodites, intersex people, cleft lip, heart defects, type 1 diabetes, children born missing parts of their skulls, kids have been born without brains, born missing limbs, conjoined twins, need I go on?
It is insulting to those with the health issues like what you named that you equate something like heart disease to transgenderism.

Something is deeply wrong at a level other than physical when a person is born with all the correct anatomical parts of one gender and then they claim that they feel like the other.
When a biological male is now able in some States to claim he feels like a woman on the inside and in that pronouncement gain access to womens rights, there's something related to feeling that makes that pronouncement possible.



Please. Continue insulting a condition that many people suffer horribly from. It really helps.
It can't be that horrible when those people who claim to suffer are out at the legislative hall in various States in America demanding their horrible condition that they suffer from must have the right to impinge on the privacy of those who are born the sex that sufferer claims as their personal horrid condition!
 
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Luther073082

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If you can find a study showing that there is an actual brain composition difference between the brains of different races, then I'll start giving you some credibility. If you can show that your skin color and features are giving you dysphoria that you find depressing and even crippling, then I'll give you some credibility.

Until then, you are doing nothing more than mocking a horrifying condition, which I suffer from, that a lot of people have found so terrible that we often try to kill ourselves (and far too many succeed). Treatment by society (which is commonly treating us like freaks, beating, raping and murdering us) doesn't make it any better.

So if you want to be treated like a black man or an asian, more power to you. Have at it. I'm not even sure what that means exactly. Feel free to fill me in on how I can treat you appropriately. Your comment about changing it every day is just an insult, really. You want to act like this is just a joke, but it seems more like you just don't know anything about it at all. I gave you an invitation to learn by giving you sources. I would appreciate you taking the time to educate yourself instead of continuing to act like it's a joke. It's been destroying my life for years and has come close to succeeding more than once. Thank you.

By being treated as a Cherokee I mean that I would be accepted and integrated into their culture without resistance. . . From anyone, resisting accepting me as a Cherokee is hateful and discrimination. My pale white skin has nothing to do with what race I feel I am. And even if I know nothing about their culture, it still doesn't matter. A woman is not measured by her ability to wear high heels or a man not measured by his ability to tie a neck tie. I feel I am Cherokee, therefore I am Cherokee.

And that I could claim to be a Cherokee and not be prosecuted for perjury if I claimed that on any government applications. As well as have that automatically accepted as true if I willingly claimed that in a job application or interview. Punishing me for claiming the race I feel like I am is discrimination!

I should be able to live on their reservation, pay their reservation taxes, vote in their reservation's elections, and have a piece of the ownership of any casino's they may own provided I fulfill the other conditions of ownership. Trying to exclude me from all of that because of my white skin is discrimination.

On top of that I should if I start a business be able to claim myself to be a Minority Business Enterprise and receive all the benefits that entails, especially when it comes to government contracts. Not allowing me to have those benefits because of my white skin is discrimination.

Also I want everyone to refer to me as a Native American or a Cherokee. I've decided that it's wrong and hateful for them to look at my white skin and come to the determination that I'm a white man. If one can just decide that they are a woman, it makes perfect sense that one can decide that they are a Cherokee. . . or black. . . or a dog. . . or Lrrr, ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8.

And I expect affirmative action to apply to me.

For the record my son is 1/64th Cherokee on his mom's side. So once the Cherokee nation and the world stops discriminating against me, we could all be one happy pale skinned Cherokee family. That is unless he grows up and decides he's black or something like that.

(For the record, I really don't care what you do. But at the same time the above is why I will never consider you a woman, no matter how much you want me to. My problem is that trans-genedered people want to be treated as something they are not just because they "feel" that they are.)

As far as brain differences. . . I was looking for any studies on this, but either no one has done a study on this or I'm unable to weed through the racist crap to find an actual legit study. But see these brain studies don't actually matter because they don't test people for this before they are allowed to claim to be a woman. And apparently the way to help someone who has a problem is to applaud their problem and help them live out that problem. . . Kind of like how we treat alcoholics by encouraging them to drink more alcohol. . . Or we treat drug addicts by giving them cocaine.
 
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Cute Tink

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It is insulting to those with the health issues like what you named that you equate something like heart disease to transgenderism.

In what way? I was referring to things you are born with. Specifically, in my example, I was challenging the concept that God doesn't make mistakes and my examples were to point out that either God intends us to be born with physical and mental issues or that God has less to do with our development than is implied by the statement that "God doesn't make mistakes." Which, by the way, is only a phrase used against trans people. I have never heard a trans person say that "God made a mistake".

Something is deeply wrong at a level other than physical when a person is born with all the correct anatomical parts of one gender and then they claim that they feel like the other.

I believe I noted that in my previous post with links.

When a biological male is now able in some States to claim he feels like a woman on the inside and in that pronouncement gain access to womens rights, there's something related to feeling that makes that pronouncement possible.

It can't be that horrible when those people who claim to suffer are out at the legislative hall in various States in America demanding their horrible condition that they suffer from must have the right to impinge on the privacy of those who are born the sex that sufferer claims as their personal horrid condition!

You're right. Instead, everyone should be allowed to invade our personal privacy and get to check what's in our pants before letting us urinate? I don't see how that is nearly equivalent.

For the record, I am in favor of private changing areas for all, or unisex, single-use areas. I welcome any criticisms to the inappropriateness of that idea.

I also don't think it is appropriate that some trans people flaunt the fact that they are still physically not matching the other people in private areas. Frankly I am embarassed by how my body looks and would never disrobe in any locker room where someone can see me.
 
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Cute Tink

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As far as brain differences. . . I was looking for any studies on this, but either no one has done a study on this or I'm unable to weed through the racist crap to find an actual legit study. But see these brain studies don't actually matter because they don't test people for this before they are allowed to claim to be a woman. And apparently the way to help someone who has a problem is to applaud their problem and help them live out that problem. . . Kind of like how we treat alcoholics by encouraging them to drink more alcohol. . . Or we treat drug addicts by giving them cocaine.

I posted two links before. One was to an article about a study and the other was a Wikipedia article which had links to other studies as well as some discussion of findings.

You're right, they don't require a brain scan before "approving" treatment. Perhaps that has to do with the fact that the area of study is still new and probably doesn't have a lot of funding (until recently, trans issues haven't exactly been in the spotlight).

They have done post-mortem studies actually dissecting the brains and they have done brain scans of living trans people, including scans of those who haven't started hormones. The results have been consistent.

If they did require testing to prove your condition before starting treatment, at what level should they consider you "valid"? Does your brain have to be 100% opposite to "allow" transition? Is 50% enough?

Because it sounds like a Catch 22 to me. It doesn't sound like, even if I was able to show you that my brain tested 100% female that it would matter to you at all. You still wouldn't consider me female.

There isn't always a physical test to determine if someone has a condition. Do you reject all such diagnoses?
 
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Tallguy88

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Luther073082 said:
By being treated as a Cherokee I mean that I would be accepted and integrated into their culture without resistance. . . From anyone, resisting accepting me as a Cherokee is hateful and discrimination. My pale white skin has nothing to do with what race I feel I am. And even if I know nothing about their culture, it still doesn't matter. A woman is not measured by her ability to wear high heels or a man not measured by his ability to tie a neck tie. I feel I am Cherokee, therefore I am Cherokee.

And that I could claim to be a Cherokee and not be prosecuted for perjury if I claimed that on any government applications. As well as have that automatically accepted as true if I willingly claimed that in a job application or interview. Punishing me for claiming the race I feel like I am is discrimination!

I should be able to live on their reservation, pay their reservation taxes, vote in their reservation's elections, and have a piece of the ownership of any casino's they may own provided I fulfill the other conditions of ownership. Trying to exclude me from all of that because of my white skin is discrimination.

On top of that I should if I start a business be able to claim myself to be a Minority Business Enterprise and receive all the benefits that entails, especially when it comes to government contracts. Not allowing me to have those benefits because of my white skin is discrimination.

Also I want everyone to refer to me as a Native American or a Cherokee. I've decided that it's wrong and hateful for them to look at my white skin and come to the determination that I'm a white man. If one can just decide that they are a woman, it makes perfect sense that one can decide that they are a Cherokee. . . or black. . . or a dog. . . or Lrrr, ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8.

And I expect affirmative action to apply to me.

For the record my son is 1/64th Cherokee on his mom's side. So once the Cherokee nation and the world stops discriminating against me, we could all be one happy pale skinned Cherokee family. That is unless he grows up and decides he's black or something like that.

(For the record, I really don't care what you do. But at the same time the above is why I will never consider you a woman, no matter how much you want me to. My problem is that trans-genedered people want to be treated as something they are not just because they "feel" that they are.)

As far as brain differences. . . I was looking for any studies on this, but either no one has done a study on this or I'm unable to weed through the racist crap to find an actual legit study. But see these brain studies don't actually matter because they don't test people for this before they are allowed to claim to be a woman. And apparently the way to help someone who has a problem is to applaud their problem and help them live out that problem. . . Kind of like how we treat alcoholics by encouraging them to drink more alcohol. . . Or we treat drug addicts by giving them cocaine.

It doesn't matter what color your skin is. If you don't have an ancestor on the Dawes Roll, you will NOT be a member of the Cherokee Nation. If you do have an ancestor on the Dawes Roll, it doesn't matter if you're as white as Michael Jackson, you can be a member with all the rights associated with it. Most tribes require you to be on the list and have a blood quantum (usually 25%) to be a member, but Cherokee do not have a blood quantum.
 
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Cute Tink

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By being treated as a Cherokee I mean that I would be accepted and integrated into their culture without resistance. . .

I have spent some time thinking about your list of ways you expect to be treated as a Cherokee. Just to be sure, despite this being rather off topic, is this what it means to you to identify as Cherokee?
 
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1Feather

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In what way? I was referring to things you are born with. Specifically, in my example, I was challenging the concept that God doesn't make mistakes and my examples were to point out that either God intends us to be born with physical and mental issues or that God has less to do with our development than is implied by the statement that "God doesn't make mistakes." Which, by the way, is only a phrase used against trans people. I have never heard a trans person say that "God made a mistake".
I have.

You're right. Instead, everyone should be allowed to invade our personal privacy
Trans expect to invade the opposite sex to what they are biologically just because of what they claim is in their head as they think they have the right to do that because they feel they are entitled to be there.

and get to check what's in our pants before letting us urinate? I don't see how that is nearly equivalent.
A man who feels like a woman isn't shocked by a mens rest room. Let him use that. It's as do-able as when he thinks he has a right dressed as a woman to enter into women's facilities where he thinks that what is in his pants is to be ignored because what's in his head has special right to invade the privacy of women.

For the record, I am in favor of private changing areas for all, or unisex, single-use areas. I welcome any criticisms to the inappropriateness of that idea.
Private changing rooms would be ideal save for a gym, public pool. The cost to refit those public areas would be extreme in order to make for private accommodation cubicles for individuals. And then what of the showers?
 
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Cute Tink

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Fair enough. Commonly? Because I have spoken to several (though hardly a majority) and I have never heard it and I've never said it myself.

Trans expect to invade the opposite sex to what they are biologically just because of what they claim is in their head as they think they have the right to do that because they feel they are entitled to be there.

You are using a lot of loaded language. You seem to be thoroughly educated on how we think, almost like you are in our thoughts.

A man who feels like a woman isn't shocked by a mens rest room. Let him use that. It's as do-able as when he thinks he has a right dressed as a woman to enter into women's facilities where he thinks that what is in his pants is to be ignored because what's in his head has special right to invade the privacy of women.

Yes, because those of us who have developed breasts are going to fit in so well in a men's room.

Private changing rooms would be ideal save for a gym, public pool. The cost to refit those public areas would be extreme in order to make for private accommodation cubicles for individuals. And then what of the showers?

That's odd, because my gym has that exact accomodation. Curtained off showers... not that expensive. Curtained off changing areas... not that expensive.

So your solution is that people who don't really fit in either category go where their genitals belong, regardless of how it looks when they walk in. Because exposing your genitals is required (apparently). You assume that, I suppose, everyone MtF who undergoes transition looks male until the moment they get surgery, then they look female. So there won't be any question when someone who responds to hormones better, or who transitioned earlier, or even someone who (for whatever reason) just looks more female to start, isn't going to be questioned when using the men's locker room.

Breasts are fine in the men's room? Please clarify.
 
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mark46

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Personally, I don't check out the genitals of people I meet. How do think that you will know not to treat such a person as a woman? And what terrible thing would happen if you considered this person as presented, without checking? Do you ask about sexual orientation also?

I'm not trying to be silly here. The reality is if someone presents themselves as a male, the society will treat them as such. If they present as a female, the society will treat them as such. We are talking of public, social settings.

Society can make legal decisions and legal policies about almost anything.

If we are discussing a school's right to discriminate because of gender orientation, that's fine. Most of us might think that a private, religious school should be able to do so, if it is their contracts. Some would not allow such restrictions unless other action than orientation are involved. Some would NOT think that a Catholic school could bar homosexuals or transsexuals from teaching math, unless they also barred adulterers.

In the current case, the issue is muddled, as legal issues usually are. The teacher of 17 years has apparently been fired because of insubordination after informing the school regarding the gender issue. A court can decide whether the school acted within the law or withing their own contracts.
================

The legal issue may be who the school may discriminate in its hiring of teachers (use math teach as an example).

When all the teachers were underpaid ander-appreciated nuns, this issue didn't come up.

Not belittling you. . . but if you want to be a woman, look like a woman, act like a woman. . . that's fine, for the most part I don't care. That isn't going to make me consider you a woman anymore then I consider myself Cherokee.
 
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