Aerial Toll Houses? Yay or Nay.

gurneyhalleck1 · Sep 23, 2013

I mentioned today at coffee hour that I had read "The Soul After Death," and my priest says emphatically, "WHY!? I wished you'd told me! I could've saved you time. Father Seraphim's stuff isn't Orthodox at all." and then my godmother said, "oh, geez, just ERASE that junk you read from your head, Joseph! Erase! Erase mode!"

I must say, Father Seraphim creates some intense feelings. Truly a lightning rod of a guy.....

inconsequential · Sep 23, 2013

gurneyhalleck1 said:
I mentioned today at coffee hour that I had read "The Soul After Death," and my priest says emphatically, "WHY!? I wished you'd told me! I could've saved you time. Father Seraphim's stuff isn't Orthodox at all." and then my godmother said, "oh, geez, just ERASE that junk you read from your head, Joseph! Erase! Erase mode!"

I must say, Father Seraphim creates some intense feelings. Truly a lightning rod of a guy.....

He's regarded as virtually a Saint by many, while many others regard him as your priest does. It's pretty frustrating to not know and is one of the chief reasons I've stopped reading religious books. If I don't know which cakes have poison and which don't, I'll just let them all be.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Sep 23, 2013

gurneyhalleck1 said:
I mentioned today at coffee hour that I had read "The Soul After Death," and my priest says emphatically, "WHY!? I wished you'd told me! I could've saved you time. Father Seraphim's stuff isn't Orthodox at all." and then my godmother said, "oh, geez, just ERASE that junk you read from your head, Joseph! Erase! Erase mode!"

I must say, Father Seraphim creates some intense feelings. Truly a lightning rod of a guy.....

I was born and raised Orthodox and throughout my life I was NEVER taught anything nor heard anything on these toll houses. It seems that converts gravitate to this kind of stuff. :amen:

Tallguy88 · Sep 23, 2013

gurneyhalleck1 said:
I mentioned today at coffee hour that I had read "The Soul After Death," and my priest says emphatically, "WHY!? I wished you'd told me! I could've saved you time. Father Seraphim's stuff isn't Orthodox at all." and then my godmother said, "oh, geez, just ERASE that junk you read from your head, Joseph! Erase! Erase mode!"

I must say, Father Seraphim creates some intense feelings. Truly a lightning rod of a guy.....

Personally, I'd go with what your priest says.

jckstraw72 · Sep 23, 2013

inconsequential said:
He's regarded as virtually a Saint by many, while many others regard him as your priest does. It's pretty frustrating to not know and is one of the chief reasons I've stopped reading religious books. If I don't know which cakes have poison and which don't, I'll just let them all be.

thank you for pointing to the danger in being so vitriolic against a well-loved writer and monastic. i would be willing to bet that this priest and Godmother had never even read his book. If they had they would warn against reading all the Saints he quotes too ...

ArmyMatt · Sep 23, 2013

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Why, because YOU say so...THAT is a weak argument LOL

no to say that you have evidence because it is found in earlier pagan sources is the same thing that atheists do with the Virgin birth, the Flood, and the Resurrection. it's weak when they do it, and it's weak when you do it. that's just logic

ArmyMatt · Sep 23, 2013

gurneyhalleck1 said:
I mentioned today at coffee hour that I had read "The Soul After Death," and my priest says emphatically, "WHY!? I wished you'd told me! I could've saved you time. Father Seraphim's stuff isn't Orthodox at all." and then my godmother said, "oh, geez, just ERASE that junk you read from your head, Joseph! Erase! Erase mode!"

I must say, Father Seraphim creates some intense feelings. Truly a lightning rod of a guy.....

well, reading a book like that you should probably have told your priest first, just because eschatological stuff can be confusing. even my spiritual father, who believes in the toll houses, says that he does not want folks reading that book early on, and later when I did read it, I kept him in the loop as far as what I was reading.

and yeah he does, but there is nothing he says that others that no one ever complains about has written. for the life of me I can never figure out why folks always come down so hard on him.

Kristos · Sep 23, 2013

I would be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in that pastorally I could understand why a priest might discourage the reading of certain books. In other words, the "unOrthodoxy" could be more about where it tends to lead people than what it actually says.

gurneyhalleck1 · Sep 23, 2013

You'd lose that bet, mate. They've read plenty of his works, especially my godmother. She's read at least 3 that I'm aware of. My priest is very well aware of his writings.

jckstraw72 said:
i would be willing to bet that this priest and Godmother had never even read his book. If they had they would warn against reading all the Saints he quotes too ...

Lukaris · Sep 23, 2013

It is an unsettled doctrine & easily avoidable. To those who cherish it,it is their right to do so;to those of us who reject it, it is our right also. Any attempt to render this dogma is unsound.

Tallguy88 · Sep 23, 2013

Lukaris said:
It is an unsettled doctrine & easily avoidable. To those who cherish it,it is their right to do so;to those of us who reject it, it is our right also. Any attempt to render this dogma is unsound.

I like this view.

JeremiahsBulldog · Sep 24, 2013

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
I was born and raised Orthodox and throughout my life I was NEVER taught anything nor heard anything on these toll houses. It seems that converts gravitate to this kind of stuff.

I was born and raised Orthodox, too. "Ethnic" Orthodox, in fact. And there's at least one priest in my family tree.

In my church, it's mostly the older generation, from the "old country" - including the priest - who believe in the toll-houses. And, BTW, most of them never even heard of Fr. Seraphim Rose.

Nickolai · Sep 24, 2013

This whole debate is so funny, In all of the "Orthodox Countries" there is close to zero disagreement with the doctrine of the toll-houses. It's accepted because the consensus of the Fathers proclaims it. To disagree with them is profoundly foolish and egotistical. If there was patristic disagreement, the anti-toll-house camp would have a legitimate point. But the debate as it is boils down to this large amount of Saints teaches the doctrine vs. I agree with the defrocked Deacon Lev Puhalo.

As for Fr. Seraphim Rose (who is simply repeating the teaching of ORTHODOX Saints) being "unOrthodox" in his writings. I wonder if the people with that opinion have any experience of the Orthodox world outside of the US. There is little doubt that he is a Saint if you ask just about any Bishop or Priest in the Church of Russia. I encourage all of my interested flock to read his writings (though if they are interested in the afterlife I direct them to Met. Hierotheos first).

jckstraw72 · Sep 24, 2013

Nickolai said:
This whole debate is so funny, In all of the "Orthodox Countries" there is close to zero disagreement with the doctrine of the toll-houses. It's accepted because the consensus of the Fathers proclaims it. To disagree with them is profoundly foolish and egotistical. If there was patristic disagreement, the anti-toll-house camp would have a legitimate point. But the debate as it is boils down to this large amount of Saints teaches the doctrine vs. I agree with the defrocked Deacon Lev Puhalo.

As for Fr. Seraphim Rose (who is simply repeating the teaching of ORTHODOX Saints) being "unOrthodox" in his writings. I wonder if the people with that opinion have any experience of the Orthodox world outside of the US. There is little doubt that he is a Saint if you ask just about any Bishop or Priest in the Church of Russia. I encourage all of my interested flock to read his writings (though if they are interested in the afterlife I direct them to Met. Hierotheos first).

i was sitting next to a random Greek man in Karyes on Mt. Athos this past summer and when he found out we were Americans he immediately started talking about how he loves Fr. Seraphim Rose. He was overjoyed when I showed him the icon of Fr. Seraphim I was carrying and he venerated it with great love. Then I showed him the piece of Fr. Seraphim's cassock that I was carrying with me, and he kissed it and rubbed it all over his face and arms. That was one happy Greek man.

ArmyMatt · Sep 24, 2013

from what I have heard and read, Fr Nikolai is spot on. if you read from any of the old World monastics, whenever they talk about soul after death stuff, they overwhelmingly affirm the teaching. it's not even close.

Kristos · Sep 24, 2013

jckstraw72 said:
forgive me for misunderstanding you.

Fr. Seraphim says that the toll houses certainly exist, but that the imagery describing it should not be taken literally. it's like the angel said to St. Macarius when he revealed the toll houses to him: "Accept earthly things here as the weakest kind of depiction of heavenly things." it's like the streets of gold in Heaven -- i don't think there are literally golden streets, but I don't think the imagery therefore means nothing.

i dont understand the idea that if the imagery is not 100% literal then there's no reality whatsoever.

The problem in this case is that for some the image seems to take precedence. If I say that I believe in the the tollhouses - what does that mean? - that I believe in the image or the reality or literally? I think it is very possible to believe in the reality without this image. So if I say I do not believe in the tollhouses does that mean I deny the reality? Certainly not. I could very easily affirm the Orthodox teaching concerning the soul after death and never mention a tollhouse. It's a metaphor. To say that you believe in a metaphor is to say what then? To me it says nothing or worse indicates that the metaphor has taken on literal meaning. Please note that I am not taking "a side" here, and that is purposeful because arguing about a metaphor strikes me as pointless and somewhat futile.

ArmyMatt · Sep 24, 2013

Kristos said:
The problem in this case is that for some the image seems to take precedence. If I say that I believe in the the tollhouses - what does that mean? - that I believe in the image or the reality or literally? I think it is very possible to believe in the reality without this image. So if I say I do not believe in the tollhouses does that mean I deny the reality? Certainly not. I could very easily affirm the Orthodox teaching concerning the soul after death and never mention a tollhouse. It's a metaphor. To say that you believe in a metaphor is to say what then? To me it says nothing or worse indicates that the metaphor has taken on literal meaning. Please note that I am not taking "a side" here, and that is purposeful because arguing about a metaphor strikes me as pointless and somewhat futile.

sure, and many Fathers have mentioned what is known now as the toll houses, without actually using that term. another common one was the taxing of souls. the issue is not that people have a problem with the term or whatever, folks take sides against it even though there are countless saints and prayers that affirm it. it's that they fight against the teaching behind the metaphor, because they refuse to see it as one.

Lukaris · Sep 24, 2013

So in some traditions it is known by cradles & yet Biblical knowledge is often lacking among laity overall. One day you hear a story about a monk who did not "judge" anyone but lived a dissolute life & gets a free ride to heaven while someone else may have forgotten to repent of some minor sin & gets assailed by demons after death. I know I need to confess my sins an ongoing basis, read my prayer book, read the Bible & trust in the Lord & not obsess about realms of phantoms.

Knee V · Sep 24, 2013

This reminds me of the Orthodox churches that use the Presbyterian choir robes and have their kids in Sunday School for the majority of the Liturgy, when a new priest tries to get them to ditch the robes and have the kids in the Liturgy - the way Orthodoxy is actually supposed to be, and the way it is everywhere else in the world - and the response is "But this is how Orthodoxy has always done it!"

Yeshua HaDerekh · Sep 24, 2013

So where/when did the teaching/theory first begin? I don't remember ever reading anything biblically on it. Is this extra-biblical Tradition of some sort? Why 20...why not 10 or 30? At each toll-house, demons demand that souls "pay" for their sins by giving an account of compensatory good deeds. If the soul is unable to compensate for a sin, the demons take it to hell? What happened to grace and Christ's blood covering our sins? It sounds like good or bad deeds save or damn us...???

On the first aerial toll-house, the soul is questioned about the sins of the tongue;

The second is the toll-house of lies;
The third is the toll-house of slander;
The fourth is the toll-house of gluttony;
The fifth is the toll-house of laziness;
The sixth toll-house is the toll-house of theft;
The seventh is the toll-house of covetousness;
The eighth is the toll-house of usury;
The ninth is the toll-house of injustice;
The tenth is the toll-house of envy;
The eleventh is the toll-house of pride;
The twelve is the toll-house of anger;
The thirteenth is the toll-house of remembering evil;
The fourteenth is the toll-house of murder;
The fifteenth is the toll-house of magic;
The sixteenth is the toll-house of lust;
The seventeenth is the toll-house of adultery;
The eighteenth is the toll-house of sodomy;
The nineteenth is the toll-house of heresy;
The twentieth toll-house is the toll-house of unmercifulness

Aerial Toll Houses? Yay or Nay.

Aerial Toll Houses? Yay or Nay?

Yes

No

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We shall see the King when he comes!

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It's phonetic.

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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