Counting the months...

Mockingbird0 · Sep 16, 2013

visionary said:
Mar 9, 2013.... aprox.. start of the first month depending on a number of factors and who you follow...

1.) April
2.) May
3.) June
4.) July
5.) August
6.) September
7.) October

Give or take a few days here or there... Ball park does not put the seventh month in September.

??

I am puzzled. You seem to be counting March as a Zeroth month, which seems inappropriate in this context.

Please clarify.

For reference purposes, here are the new moons of the Gregorian lunar calendar for this year, together with their old names and the traditional / fanciful names for their full moons used by modern almanac-makers.

Code:

[U]#	Old name	Almanac name		Begins at sunset preceeding[/U]
 
1.	Yule		Cold moon		December 15 2012
2.	Solmonth	Wolf moon		January 14 2013
3.	Hrethmonth	Snow moon		February 12
4.	Eastermonth	Worm moon		March 14
5.	Threemilk	Pink moon		April 12
6.	Lithe		Flower moon		May 12
7.	Lithe (embol.)	Strawberry moon		June 10
8.	Lithe		Buck moon		July 10
9.	Weedmonth	Sturgeon moon		August 8
10.	Holymonth	Harvest moon		September 7
11.	Winterfilleth	Hunter's moon		October 6
12.	Bloodmonth	Beaver moon		November 5
13.	Yule		Cold moon		December 4

If we modify the count so that Eastermonth / Worm moon is month #1, then Holymonth / Harvest moon, beginning on September 7th, is #7. If we take Lulav's suggestion and count as month #1 the first one to come entirely after the Spring equinox -- this is what the old Babylonian calendar did, by accident if not by design -- then Threemilk / Pink moon would be #1, and Winterfilleth / Hunter's moon, beginning on October 6th, would be #7.

The Fall holy-days falling in the civil month of September this year is consistent with the equation 2013 Eastermonth = 2013 'Aviv.

Using the Rabbinic calendar with the equation Rabbinic Nisan = Scriptural 'Aviv would give essentially the same result, though the dates of the new moons would differ by 1 or 2 days.

visionary · Sep 16, 2013

Ok... here is what I did... 7 x 30 [30 days in a month] = 210 days... = 7 months...

Add or subtract to a date â€“ results

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/news/2013-moon-phases.html#.UjfCZ9K-r9k

I used your March 13th as indicated from NASA website and 210 days later it is Oct 9th. NASA indicates that the next new moon will be Oct 5th, which makes sense since the moon does a 28-29 cycle.

sevengreenbeans · Sep 16, 2013

HannibalFlavius said:
Yom Hakeseh is called the hidden day that no man knoweth, only the father.

This was said antytime rosh Hashanah was mentioned.

It was to remain hidden from Satan, but we are told that the coming of the Lord as a thief will be no means take us by surprise because we know the appointed days,{times and seasons}

Jesus also says in Revelation that if we will not watch, then he will come in an day they we do not expect and an hour that we do not know.

But we know the day, and we know the hour because we are nhot in darkness that the day should catch us by surpise.

Nobody knowing the day of hour is a Jewish idiom speaking of Rosh Hashannah, and so we are to be prepared on every Rosh Hashanah.

Keseh is also a term used in reference to the concealed moon, or new moon, thus Yom Teruah, or Rosh Chodesh in general. If one was observing the moon exclusively with the eye (without advanced calculations), the conjunction of the moon would not be known by day or hour. The hour of conjunction would affect the day of conjunction, due to the lunar calendar being counted from one evening to the next. The layperson would look for the last crescent early morning and know the sky would be dark that night. The layperson watching the sky would know 1st of the month, but wouldn't know the specific hour it began, or whether it occurred before evening or after evening. This is why I believe the new moon occurs upon conjunction, or no moon, because when 'sighting' the first crescent, the hour and day is known.

Mockingbird0 · Sep 16, 2013

visionary said:
Ok... here is what I did... 7 x 30 [30 days in a month] = 210 days... = 7 months...

But that is what puzzles me. You seem to be discussing the dates of festivals. Am I mistaken about that? But from the beginning of the first month (in which the Spring festival falls) to the beginning of the seventh month (which holds the Fall festival) is six months, not seven, since 7=1+6. So I would compute 6 x 29.5 = 177 days, March 14th + 177 days = "March 191st" = September 7th. But maybe I simply misunderstood your opening post.

visionary · Sep 17, 2013

Mockingbird0 said:
But that is what puzzles me. You seem to be discussing the dates of festivals. Am I mistaken about that? But from the beginning of the first month (in which the Spring festival falls) to the beginning of the seventh month (which holds the Fall festival) is six months, not seven, since 7=1+6. So I would compute 6 x 29.5 = 177 days, March 14th + 177 days = "March 191st" = September 7th. But maybe I simply misunderstood your opening post.

ok, that is where my count is off.

thanks

sevengreenbeans · Sep 17, 2013

visionary said:
ok, that is where my count is off. thanks

March to April = 1
April to May = 2
May to June = 3
June to July = 4
July to August = 5
August to September = 6
September to October = 7

Lulav · Sep 17, 2013

visionary said:
for Obama's plans this Oct 1st.... Mysterious FEMA Region lll Alert Has Folks on Edge | ...

U.S. Air Force to shut down 'Space Fence' surveillance system

Employers face Oct. 1 deadline to send out health insurance notices - NorthJersey.com

Oct. 1 deadline looms for EM to change city retirees' health care | The Detroit News

Ok, now you got me frightened, I live in Section III

visionary · Sep 17, 2013

Lulav said:
Ok, now you got me frightened, I live in Section III

I have no idea what is adding up.. but it is indeed strange behavior.

Yahudim · Sep 17, 2013

Welllllll...

You leave a little wiggle room simply because we all can count days, so we know when to start looking. But unless you can predict the weather, you still don't know 'the hour and the day' until you actually see it or until it is declared because they couldn't see it.

The reason that I am convinced that the 'sighted moon' method holds preeminence is because it was the method in use when the prophecies of Pesach, Hag HaMatza and Yom HaBikkurim were fulfilled by Messiah. (See:www.jewfaq.org/chodesh.htm&#8206

If you believe that Messiah Y'shua was indeed Messiah, then Messiah's participation must equal HaShem's condonement of the methodology.

sevengreenbeans said:
Keseh is also a term used in reference to the concealed moon, or new moon, thus Yom Teruah, or Rosh Chodesh in general. If one was observing the moon exclusively with the eye (without advanced calculations), the conjunction of the moon would not be known by day or hour. The hour of conjunction would affect the day of conjunction, due to the lunar calendar being counted from one evening to the next. The layperson would look for the last crescent early morning and know the sky would be dark that night. The layperson watching the sky would know 1st of the month, but wouldn't know the specific hour it began, or whether it occurred before evening or after evening. This is why I believe the new moon occurs upon conjunction, or no moon, because when 'sighting' the first crescent, the hour and day is known.

Gxg (G²) · Sep 17, 2013

sevengreenbeans said:
March to April = 1
April to May = 2
May to June = 3
June to July = 4
July to August = 5
August to September = 6
September to October = 7

Mockingbird0 · Sep 18, 2013

talmidim said:
The reason that I am convinced that the 'sighted moon' method holds preeminence is because it was the method in use when the prophecies of Pesach, Hag HaMatza and Yom HaBikkurim were fulfilled by Messiah. (See:www.jewfaq.org/chodesh.htm&#8206

The link presupposes that the Mishnah's account of how the calendar was regulated in Herodian times is historically accurate, a presupposition not everyone shares.

sevengreenbeans · Sep 18, 2013

Mockingbird0 said:
The link presupposes that the Mishnah's account of how the calendar was regulated in Herodian times is historically accurate, a presupposition not everyone shares.

Exactly.

sevengreenbeans · Sep 18, 2013

talmidim said:
Welllllll...

You leave a little wiggle room simply because we all can count days, so we know when to start looking. But unless you can predict the weather, you still don't know 'the hour and the day' until you actually see it or until it is declared because they couldn't see it.

The reason that I am convinced that the 'sighted moon' method holds preeminence is because it was the method in use when the prophecies of Pesach, Hag HaMatza and Yom HaBikkurim were fulfilled by Messiah. (See:www.jewfaq.org/chodesh.htm&#8206 If you believe that Messiah Y'shua was indeed Messiah, then Messiah's participation must equal HaShem's condonement of the methodology.

If the sighted moon method is used, there will never be a full moon on the corresponding feast day. At least not that I've observed with my own eyes thus far.

For example, for those who believe this is the seventh month, how many are celebrating the first night of Sukkot tonight? It is full moon night.

Mockingbird0 · Sep 19, 2013

sevengreenbeans said:
If the sighted moon method is used, there will never be a full moon on the corresponding feast day. At least not that I've observed with my own eyes thus far.

If we consider a theoretical lunar month of 29.53 days, the moon moving at a constant angular velocity from conjunction to conjunction, the first day of the lunar month beginning 24 hours after conjunction, then the moment of opposition will occur around noon on the 14th day. When the sun sets and the moon rises about 6 hours later, beginning the 15th day, the moon will still be full in appearance, having passed opposition just a few hours before. So the full moon can be associated with the 14th day when the opposition occurs, and also with the 15th day which begins with a full-looking moon rising at sunset.

The Babylonian calendar in the Assyrian period (7th century B.C) defined the beginning of the month formally with the sighting of the new crescent, subject, however, to the constraint that no month would be shorter than 29 days or longer than 30 days. In Simo Parpola's Letters from Assyrian Scholars to the Kings Esarhaddon and Assurbanipal, (Eisenbrauns, Winona Lake, 2007) there are by my count 10 letters which clearly report an obervation either of the moon's opposition to the sun or of a lunar eclipse on a precise date. (I exclude #93 because, as I read Parpola's translation, the number in the cuneiform original is only partly legible). Of these 10, two (#74 and #172) report "opposition" on the 13th of the lunar month. Two (#81 and #90) report "opposition" on the 15th. The remaining six (#77, #85, #88, #89, #101, and #105) report opposition or lunar eclipse on the 14th. This is a very small sample, but here the opposition occurs on the 14th day more than half the time. This suggests that in a calendar of this kind, a festival beginning at sunset (start of day) on the 15th is normally expected to begin just after the moon has achieved fullness, but not before she is full. ("She" here is grammatical gender, not personification.)

Here is a Babylonian new-moon report from the Assyrian period (Parpola #99):

Good health to the king, my lord! May the gods Nabû, Marduk, and Ishtar of Arbela bless the king, my lord. We kept watch on the 29th day; the moon was seen.

Here is a full-moon report (Parpola #85):

To the king, our lord, from your servants, the scribes of Kalizi: Good health to the king, our lord! May the gods Nabû and Marduk bless the king. We watched the moon. On the 14th day the moon and the sun were seen in opposition: Well-being.

And here is a report that suggests that the king might sometimes adjust the start of the month retroactively (Parpola #119):

To the king...I first observed the moon on the 30th day, it was high, too high to be of the 30th. Its position was like that of the 2nd day. If it suits the king, my lord, the king should wait for the report of Assur before fixing the date.

Unlike what was done in this period, in later times the Babylonian calendar relied somewhat more on calculations and somewhat less on sightings.

Yahudim · Sep 21, 2013

sevengreenbeans said:
Keseh is also a term used in reference to the concealed moon, or new moon, thus Yom Teruah, or Rosh Chodesh in general. If one was observing the moon exclusively with the eye (without advanced calculations), the conjunction of the moon would not be known by day or hour. The hour of conjunction would affect the day of conjunction, due to the lunar calendar being counted from one evening to the next. The layperson would look for the last crescent early morning and know the sky would be dark that night.

I'm puzzled. You give all this evidence in support of a particular method....

sevengreenbeans said:
The layperson watching the sky would know 1st of the month, but wouldn't know the specific hour it began, or whether it occurred before evening or after evening.

...then go on to contradict your own proofs (if it was sighted before or after 'evening' it would occur on a different day)...

sevengreenbeans said:
This is why I believe the new moon occurs upon conjunction, or no moon, because when 'sighting' the first crescent, the hour and day is known.

...then you draw the exact opposite conclusion you seem to support. The calculated conjunction can yield accurate predictions of the 'hour and day' years in advance! This is something with which the Jews were all too familiar, as one of their esteemed elders was named chief among the astrologers of Babylon. I'm just saying...

Yahudim · Sep 21, 2013

May I presume you are referencing verses like Proverbs 7:20 and Psalms 81:4 for your 'full moon' conclusions? This hardly seems reliable. Nor does the inconsistent doings of the Assyrians.

You seem to be in agreement that there is disagreement that the sighted new moon was in use in the Temple service at the time Y'shua was condemned. But is the best proof that is was not? If so, I can't find it. There is little disagreement among the Jews or their writings that this method was in place at the end of the last Temple period. If you have something to share, please do so.

Thanks,
Phillip

sevengreenbeans said:
If the sighted moon method is used, there will never be a full moon on the corresponding feast day. At least not that I've observed with my own eyes thus far.

For example, for those who believe this is the seventh month, how many are celebrating the first night of Sukkot tonight? It is full moon night.

Mockingbird0 said:
If we consider a theoretical lunar month of 29.53 days, the moon moving at a constant angular velocity from conjunction to conjunction, the first day of the lunar month beginning 24 hours after conjunction, then the moment of opposition will occur around noon on the 14th day. When the sun sets and the moon rises about 6 hours later, beginning the 15th day, the moon will still be full in appearance, having passed conjunction just a few hours before. So the full moon can be associated with the 14th day when the conjunction occurs, and also with the 15th day which begins with a full-looking moon rising at sunset.

The Babylonian calendar in the Assyrian period (7th century B.C) defined the beginning of the month formally with the sighting of the new crescent, subject, however, to the constraint that no month would be shorter than 29 days or longer than 30 days. In Simo Parpola's Letters from Assyrian Scholars to the Kings Esarhaddon and Assurbanipal, (Eisenbrauns, Winona Lake, 2007) there are by my count 10 letters which clearly report an obervation either of the moon's opposition to the sun or of a lunar eclipse on a precise date. (I exclude #93 because, as I read Parpola's translation, the number in the cuneiform original is only partly legible). Of these 10, two (#74 and #172) report "opposition" on the 13th of the lunar month. Two (#81 and #90) report "opposition" on the 15th. The remaining six (#77, #85, #88, #89, #101, and #105) report opposition or lunar eclipse on the 14th. This is a very small sample, but here the opposition occurs on the 14th day more than half the time. This suggests that in a calendar of this kind, a festival beginning at sunset (start of day) on the 15th is normally expected to begin just after the moon has achieved fullness, but not before she is full. ("She" here is grammatical gender, not personification.)

Here is a Babylonian new-moon report from the Assyrian period (Parpola #99): Here is a full-moon report (Parpola #85): And here is a report that suggests that the king might sometimes adjust the start of the month retroactively (Parpola #119): Unlike what was done in this period, in later times the Babylonian calendar relied somewhat more on calculations and somewhat less on sightings.

visionary · Oct 10, 2013

October 2013 Moon Phases Calendar / Moon Schedule

visionary · Oct 10, 2013

[7 x 30]210 days from March 9th = Oct 5th

Add or subtract to a date â results

Mockingbird0 · Oct 12, 2013

talmidim said:
May I presume you are referencing verses like Proverbs 7:20 and Psalms 81:4 for your 'full moon' conclusions?

If that remark was directed to me, then: No, I'm using arithmetic, and experience. In a lunar calendar that begins its month approximately at the time of the new crescent, as the Gregorian lunar calendar does, rather than at the time of the conjunction, as the Chinese lunar calendar does, the moon will often have a full, round appearance at the sunset that ends the 14th and begins the 15th day of the month.

talmidim said:
You seem to be in agreement that there is disagreement that the sighted new moon was in use in the Temple service at the time Y'shua was condemned. But is the best proof that is was not? If so, I can't find it. There is little disagreement among the Jews or their writings that this method was in place at the end of the last Temple period. If you have something to share, please do so.

There is more than one way of keeping a lunar calendar reasonably well-synchronized with the visible phases. The fully empirical method described in the Mishnah is only one of them, and the one I think least likely to have been used in Herodian times.

In the fully empirical method, no one knows how long a month will be at the beginning of a month, or even at the end of a month, and no one knows at the beginning of a year whether a year will have 12 or 13 months. The Mishnah recognizes these difficulties by providing specific laws for dealing with the uncertainty. If a year turns out to have 13 months, for example, a lessee holding a year's lease gets the extra month as part of the lease. When evidence is given in the law courts, witnesses who date an event a day apart can be taken to agree if the dates given are in the first two or three days of a month.

The postexilic Pentateuch clearly presupposes a lunar calendar, but makes no provision for the uncertainties inherent in a purely empirical calendar. It is reasonable to suppose, then, that the priests had additional procedures for knowing in advance when a year would be intercalated and whether a lunar month would have 30 or 29 days, while still keeping the calendar close to the visible moon. Maybe they used an empirical calendar supplemented by rules as the neo-Assyrians did. Or maybe they simply followed the Parthian calendar, which was based on Babylonian mathematical astronomy. After all, earlier generations of Jews had followed whatever was the official form of the Babylonian calendar at the time. The Persian-era papyri from Elephantine show that the Jews there followed the Babylonian calendar, though occasionally they had to guess when the month began, and sometimes they guessed wrong and had to adjust when they got updates from Babylonia. The First book of Maccabees shows the Jews of that time following the Seleucid calendar. So I see no reason to believe, simply on the Mishnah's say-so, that the calendar used by the priests in Herodian times was in all details identical to the calendar described in the Mishnah.

Yahudim · Oct 12, 2013

Hi Mockingbird0,

Thanks for your input and your most recent response. Thank you for clarifying your methods. Perhaps I should clarify mine, then seek some common ground from which to continue our exchange.

My priorities are (as I'm sure yours are too) is to start with the teachings of Y'shua and look for confirmations in the most reliable of historic writings. Torah tops that list. While I am sure that both Y'shua and Moshe can be trusted to convey the utterances of our Father, I am not as certain of the custodians or the textual critics. However, we have little choice when it comes to the historical record of the practices of the priesthood and leadership of Herodian Judea. In this, and outside of scripture, we have the writings that were most closely proximate to the culture. The writings of the Jewish sages and historians fit that category well enough.

Without delving into all of the various theories or scientific evidence on the calculation or observance of lunar calendars by various cultures, the simple fact is that there is no ancient evidence of the disparity in calenders that you describe. You are guessing.

Under the Greeks the Jews kept the seleucid calendar and Torah observance was banned under penalty of death. So what? Under post-Temple Roman rule they kept the Roman calendar and Torah observance was banned under penalty of death. What's your point? In both cases, the Jewish people kept their observance as accurately as they could through thousands of years. There may be some differences that have evolved over time. But make no mistake, they are still fully aware of their history - like no other culture on the planet; primarily because they have survived beyond almost every other culture on the planet.

The best evidence is from the documents of that ancient Judean culture. They clearly state that the Sanhedrin used an empirical method of observation (you said so yourself) AND calculation. Observation held the preeminent position but could be superseded when the calculated time had passed with no sighting, exempli gratia; when the moon was occulted by weather or other natural phenomena.

It is my understanding that in post Seleucid ancient Jewish culture, the emphasis was on the New Moon, not the Full Moon. The Full Moon was the object of adoration and worship by the surrounding cultures as evidenced in their writings and artifacts. The Herodian (Idumean) kings were much too occupied with appearing 'Jewish' and 'observant' to the general populace to let heathen practices creep into the Temple practices. It was much too valuable a concession for that.

No offence intended, but you offer nothing here but supposition and speculation. That may be enough for you to abandon the best evidence we have, but I'm not convinced. Is there any evidence that any ancient accounts refuted the religious calendrical methods of the Cohens of ancient Judea? If so, I am unaware of any.

You have research the material well enough. I simply see no good cause for your conclusions.

Blessings,
Phillip

Mockingbird0 said:
If that remark was directed to me, then: No, I'm using arithmetic, and experience. In a lunar calendar that begins its month approximately at the time of the new crescent, as the Gregorian lunar calendar does, rather than at the time of the conjunction, as the Chinese lunar calendar does, the moon will often have a full, round appearance at the sunset that ends the 14th and begins the 15th day of the month.

There is more than one way of keeping a lunar calendar reasonably well-synchronized with the visible phases. The fully empirical method described in the Mishnah is only one of them, and the one I think least likely to have been used in Herodian times.

In the fully empirical method, no one knows how long a month will be at the beginning of a month, or even at the end of a month, and no one knows at the beginning of a year whether a year will have 12 or 13 months. The Mishnah recognizes these difficulties by providing specific laws for dealing with the uncertainty. If a year turns out to have 13 months, for example, a lessee holding a year's lease gets the extra month as part of the lease. When evidence is given in the law courts, witnesses who date an event a day apart can be taken to agree if the dates given are in the first two or three days of a month.

The postexilic Pentateuch clearly presupposes a lunar calendar, but makes no provision for the uncertainties inherent in a purely empirical calendar. It is reasonable to suppose, then, that the priests had additional procedures for knowing in advance when a year would be intercalated and whether a lunar month would have 30 or 29 days, while still keeping the calendar close to the visible moon. Maybe they used an empirical calendar supplemented by rules as the neo-Assyrians did. Or maybe they simply followed the Parthian calendar, which was based on Babylonian mathematical astronomy. After all, earlier generations of Jews had followed whatever was the official form of the Babylonian calendar at the time. The Persian-era papyri from Elephantine show that the Jews there followed the Babylonian calendar, though occasionally they had to guess when the month began, and sometimes they guessed wrong and had to adjust when they got updates from Babylonia. The First book of Maccabees shows the Jews of that time following the Seleucid calendar. So I see no reason to believe, simply on the Mishnah's say-so, that the calendar used by the priests in Herodian times was in all details identical to the calendar described in the Mishnah.

Counting the months...

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Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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