Corruptions

There are four foundational corruptions that have entered professing “Christianity” beginning early at its inception which have caused great damage to the integrity of the Lord’s prophetic word

Here they are:

Preterism [past fulfillment of all or most of the prophetic scriptures]
A-millennial Theology [“kingdom now”- no future literal rule of the Lord on the earth]
Replacement Theology [the “church” has replaced national Israel]
Post Tribulation Theology [the Lord returns at the end of His hour of trial and judgment]

These perversions are usually found being exercised together to some degree, either mixed or full blown, within the same group or movement

And none of the movements have comprehensive scriptural support for their justifications

The entire objective of these interpretations of men is to destroy the fabric of an integrated and fully supported body of prophecy presented in scripture so that those who do this can arbitrarily insert their own proprietary religions into the voids created by the systematic degradation of the Lord’s revelations


If all or most of prophecy has already been fulfilled in the past, this opens up the future for inserting falsehoods

If the Lord’s kingdom is here on the earth at this time, then the necessity of His return to do the same can be eliminated

If Israel has no future in the Lord’s planning, this permits the Gentiles to boast, to steal, and to replace

If there is no pre-tribulation intervention of the Lord then all of the movements can arbitrarily insert their memberships into the tribulation period for their experience


So all of the other three perversions must rely upon the absence of the Lord’s early intervention in order for the holders to sell them

This is the main reason why there is so much controversy related to the Lord's intent to call His ecclesia before He brings His time of judgment upon an unbelieving world

Because if true [and it is], all of the others go into a tail spin and crash

The carving, discarding, and rearranging has covered over the pure and literal essence of the same to the extent that there is little left in today’s world

Will there be a measurable and effective return to the literal and holy spirit led rendering in these last days of this present age? …. unfortunately I do not think so …. the abandonment is just too wide spread

Your premise is wrong. Pretribation is only a recent teaching and has way to many faults with its doctrine. The primary reason I do not accept the pretrib doctrine is from both rapture statements (1 Cor 15:50-57 & 1 Thess 4:15-18) the dead precede the living, which implies resurrection and rapture are at same event of a trumpet; mainly the last trump in 1 Cor 15:52.

Shalom
Mark

Sorry, disagree hands down

If you want to know why .... ask

However, I am not going to argue the matter with you

Neither do I agree with Marvin Rosenthal .... your view may be the same .... he and others like him just developed another way to shove the Lord's intent with His ecclesia of today to the end of the tribulation period

His pre-wrath model simply does not work either

Time Watcher said:

There are four foundational corruptions that have entered professing “Christianity” beginning early at its inception which have caused great damage to the integrity of the Lord’s prophetic word

Here they are:

Preterism [past fulfillment of all or most of the prophetic scriptures]
A-millennial Theology [“kingdom now”- no future literal rule of the Lord on the earth]
Replacement Theology [the “church” has replaced national Israel]
Post Tribulation Theology [the Lord returns at the end of His hour of trial and judgment]

Click to expand...

funny, us post tribbers would argue that
pre trib and dispensationalism are among the "corruptions

and btw, post trib says the trib is not the wrath of God,
but that the wrath of God comes after the trib/last day
and that the wrath of God is the "Judgement" not the trib.

These perversions are usually found being exercised together to some degree, either mixed or full blown, within the same group or movement

Click to expand...

like pre trib and dispensationalism

And none of the movements have comprehensive scriptural support for their justifications

Click to expand...

lol, post trib has it all.
there is NONE for pre trib dispensationalism

The entire objective of these interpretations of men is to destroy the fabric of an integrated and fully supported body of prophecy presented in scripture so that those who do this can arbitrarily insert their own proprietary religions into the voids created by the systematic degradation of the Lord’s revelations

Click to expand...

like the fact that there is no pre trib rapture?
and the fact that the Lord is prophesied to come back only one more time?
like the fact that the gathering to Him (rapture) is after the dead in Christ are raised at the last day?

If the Lord’s kingdom is here on the earth at this time, then the necessity of His return to do the same can be eliminated

Click to expand...

well, perhaps it is u that misunderstand what the "kingdom" means.
acc. to Mathew the Kingdom IS here NOW.
all the gospels see things from a different angle.
Mat is from the vantage point of Jesus the King of Heaven (acceptable year of the Lord)
but that King and Kingdom will becoming here eventually (Day of the Lord's Vengeance/Wrath/Judgement)

If Israel has no future in the Lord’s planning, this permits the Gentiles to boast, to steal, and to replace

Click to expand...

we are Israel, if we believe and do
that has nothing to do with replacement theology
that is a repeated bible mandate.
anyone/gentile could join and become Israel,
as long as they were sincerely a part of them.

so gentiles are grafted into ISRAEL, even way back then,
let alone today through belief in Christ

there are those of us that believe scattered northern Israel
eventually migrated into the European peoples, forgetting their heritage
and thus when they later became Christianized under Rome,
that brought some of the descendants of ancient Israel, back into the fold

of course, obviously, most Christian nations
come from Europe, and GB and THEN eventually her colonies incl. the America's.

If there is no pre-tribulation intervention of the Lord then all of the movements can arbitrarily insert their memberships into the tribulation period for their experience

Click to expand...

well, there is no pre trib rapture.

the experience is the whole point.

will you be faithful/patient
or will u succumb to the temptation?

So all of the other three perversions must rely upon the absence of the Lord’s early intervention in order for the holders to sell them

Click to expand...

or, pre trib is wrong, and IT must sell it's fantasy,
even tho none of the other groups can see it in the scriptures at all.
and no Christian group all through approx. 1700-1800 years,
has followed the pre trib theology, that we know of.

BW2 says there is one mention in 180ish AD in some anonymous writer
but besides that, NOTHING in history to substantiate
that anyone else ever saw it that way until 200 years ago.

This is the main reason why there is so much controversy related to the Lord's intent to call His ecclesia before He brings His time of judgment upon an unbelieving world

Because if true [and it is], all of the others go into a tail spin and crash

Click to expand...

or if it is false, (which it is), then pre trib is a set up to fail the end times

The carving, discarding, and rearranging has covered over the pure and literal essence of the same to the extent that there is little left in today’s world

Click to expand...

that's soooooo funny coming from a pre tribber.

Will there be a measurable and effective return to the literal and holy spirit led rendering in these last days of this present age? …. unfortunately I do not think so …. the abandonment is just too wide spread

Click to expand...

I agree.
pre trib has worked its way into prob 1/2 the church.

In case you have forgotten, I see no good reason to respond to you

You stick to your PT ranting and "dig up" something for a response to the McPherson/MacDonnald ruse that you follow

I will observe your diggings .... surely you can find something ... do you think

Better hurry, you may run out of time

Time Watcher said:

There are four foundational corruptions that have entered professing “Christianity” beginning early at its inception which have caused great damage to the integrity of the Lord’s prophetic word

Here they are:

Preterism [past fulfillment of all or most of the prophetic scriptures]
A-millennial Theology [“kingdom now”- no future literal rule of the Lord on the earth]
Replacement Theology [the “church” has replaced national Israel]
Post Tribulation Theology [the Lord returns at the end of His hour of trial and judgment]

These perversions are usually found being exercised together to some degree, either mixed or full blown, within the same group or movement

And none of the movements have comprehensive scriptural support for their justifications

The entire objective of these interpretations of men is to destroy the fabric of an integrated and fully supported body of prophecy presented in scripture so that those who do this can arbitrarily insert their own proprietary religions into the voids created by the systematic degradation of the Lord’s revelations


If all or most of prophecy has already been fulfilled in the past, this opens up the future for inserting falsehoods

If the Lord’s kingdom is here on the earth at this time, then the necessity of His return to do the same can be eliminated

If Israel has no future in the Lord’s planning, this permits the Gentiles to boast, to steal, and to replace

If there is no pre-tribulation intervention of the Lord then all of the movements can arbitrarily insert their memberships into the tribulation period for their experience


So all of the other three perversions must rely upon the absence of the Lord’s early intervention in order for the holders to sell them

This is the main reason why there is so much controversy related to the Lord's intent to call His ecclesia before He brings His time of judgment upon an unbelieving world

Because if true [and it is], all of the others go into a tail spin and crash

The carving, discarding, and rearranging has covered over the pure and literal essence of the same to the extent that there is little left in today’s world

Will there be a measurable and effective return to the literal and holy spirit led rendering in these last days of this present age? …. unfortunately I do not think so …. the abandonment is just too wide spread

Click to expand...

Wrong.

[/thread]

Time Watcher said in post 1:

Post Tribulation Theology [the Lord returns at the end of His hour of trial and judgment]

Click to expand...

Regarding "hour of trial", are you referring to Revelation 3:10? If so, note that the 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what's today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The first century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the first century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself, or from the earth, in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself, or from the classroom, in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the first century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman Empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Time Watcher said in post 1:

Post Tribulation Theology [the Lord returns at the end of His hour of trial and judgment]

Click to expand...

Regarding "judgment", are you thinking of the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24? If so, note that nothing requires that it will all be God's judgment or wrath, or that any part of it that will be his judgment or wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's judgment or wrath, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he's going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Time Watcher said:

In case you have forgotten, I see no good reason to respond to you

Click to expand...

growth!

You stick to your PT ranting and "dig up" something for a response to the McPherson/MacDonnald ruse that you follow

Click to expand...

I never followed it, like u think.
I heard about it in passing.
I had no reason to believe it was a hoax as u claim.
still don't know that at all....but it's on my shelf for later.

all I thought I knew is that Darby and a few others
started the pre trib theory.

if he did or did not,
makes little difference in the long run

if it is false, it is false...

even so, see Ez13's latter half.

I will observe your diggings .... surely you can find something ... do you think

Click to expand...

sure could.
but what ever I found, u would not believe anyway, right?

Better hurry, you may run out of time

Click to expand...

na...plenty of time left. there is no pre trib rapture :o
we're here till the last day!
that's when Christ comes to gather us to Him!

Why don't you admit that you can't find anything

All you do is come up with cute little comebacks

Do you really think that rational people on this forum do not have you figured out?

prewrathrap said:

Your premise is wrong. Pretribation is only a recent teaching and has way to many faults with its doctrine. The primary reason I do not accept the pretrib doctrine is from both rapture statements (1 Cor 15:50-57 & 1 Thess 4:15-18) the dead precede the living, which implies resurrection and rapture are at same event of a trumpet; mainly the last trump in 1 Cor 15:52.

Shalom
Mark

Click to expand...

ALL of us think our view is pre wrath
because many of us define wrath differently than the next.

I believe the trib happens,
and at the last day of it, Christ comes and gathers the elect among us,
and then He begins to pour His wrath upon those
that failed the end time test.
how long that wrath lasts is debated at length

where those gathered are located during that wrath
is really not the point
because where ever that is,
those faithful patient witnesses will be with Him
so safety is an absolute guarantee.



personally my reason for calling pre trib what it is, a deception,
is because the belief in it,
really may lead some to accept the first Jesus on the scene,
even tho he's the AC, in disguise!

Time Watcher said:

Why don't you admit that you can't find anything

Click to expand...

I did not look yet.
another poster said he would do his own research,
so, no rush....I will do it when I want to,
because it is for me

All you do is come up with cute little comebacks

Click to expand...

based on, or with scripture!

Do you really think that rational people on this forum do not have you figured out?

Click to expand...

and what do u mean by that?
I try to learn, and when I do, I change my theory

because I do so, line by line, point by point, subject by subject
is a bible mandate, and I am not ashamed of that.

if u are not wiling to both teach AND learn,
then u are wasting your time here

I am not only willing to teach, but do so

However, when one like you comes along with attitude and finger pointing, I will not

Bible prophecy is not something for the novice to engage in

It does not appear to me that you are teachable at this time so I will watch you and see if I think you are .... I can tell

Time Watcher said:

There are four foundational corruptions that have entered professing "Christianity" beginning early at its inception which have caused great damage to the integrity of the Lord's prophetic word

Here they are:

Preterism [past fulfillment of all or most of the prophetic scriptures]
A-millennial Theology ["kingdom now"- no future literal rule of the Lord on the earth]
Replacement Theology [the "church" has replaced national Israel]
Post Tribulation Theology [the Lord returns at the end of His hour of trial and judgment]

These perversions are usually found being exercised together to some degree, either mixed or full blown, within the same group or movement

And none of the movements have comprehensive scriptural support for their justifications

The entire objective of these interpretations of men is to destroy the fabric of an integrated and fully supported body of prophecy presented in scripture so that those who do this can arbitrarily insert their own proprietary religions into the voids created by the systematic degradation of the Lord's revelations

If all or most of prophecy has already been fulfilled in the past, this opens up the future for inserting falsehoods

If the Lord's kingdom is here on the earth at this time, then the necessity of His return to do the same can be eliminated

If Israel has no future in the Lord's planning, this permits the Gentiles to boast, to steal, and to replace

If there is no pre-tribulation intervention of the Lord then all of the movements can arbitrarily insert their memberships into the tribulation period for their experience

So all of the other three perversions must rely upon the absence of the Lord's early intervention in order for the holders to sell them

This is the main reason why there is so much controversy related to the Lord's intent to call His ecclesia before He brings His time of judgment upon an unbelieving world

Because if true [and it is], all of the others go into a tail spin and crash

The carving, discarding, and rearranging has covered over the pure and literal essence of the same to the extent that there is little left in today's world

Will there be a measurable and effective return to the literal and holy spirit led rendering in these last days of this present age? .... unfortunately I do not think so .... the abandonment is just too wide spread

Click to expand...

This is very well written and I agree with what you are saying . More people need to make a stand for the truth!

I do believe in the pretribulation view, however we as Christians should reach out in love to others who have different views and maybe even lost. We all need to remember that our salvation and faith rests in the accomplished work of Jesus , not of works. I do believe that just because of a certain view a person has does not necessarily cause them not to be a true Christian. However, if they do not understand what the scripture teaches, they could be lost. We also need to make a strong stand for the truth and proclaim it in these last days. We all need to remember to pray for others to come to the faith.

You can reach out in love, but you must also take a standing from which you must not retract

Know this, most of today's professing "Christianity" are far from being saved for many reasons .... and if you do not challange their position about things that you know are obviously out of line with biblical Christianity, your witness will fail

So you need to add the factor of "tough" to your loving .... sometimes this can be unpleasant for you, but if you do not approach the same with straight talk, they will most likely not take you seriously

The Lord was never soft on His teaching when He was on the earth because His salvation offered is a matter of life .... or death

He has drawn the line

There you have it...a dispensationalist's only answer. Don't read the scripture for what is true...stick to what you have been taught.

Ignore clear statements like:

*The true Jew is the one who is circumcised in HEART by the Spirit...Romans 2:29

*They are not all Israel who are descended from Israel...Romans 9:6

*That if you be in Christ you ARE Abraham's descendants...Galatians 3:29.

*That Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ.

*That believers are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession,...1 Peter 3:9.

Time Watcher cannot deal with those passages...he has to explain them away or doubt your salvation because he can't answer them.

Most noteworthy, he can't find any of the apostles or Jesus attesting to another temple being built...even those the scripture clearly says the temple being built is the church.

He's at a loss...so now everything's corrupt, except what he thinks...even though he has no answer.

All those texts--all so easily dismissed.

Easily dismissed ... not worth responding to

Indeed they are when you ignore them...but when you read for instance:

Romans 9:6-8:
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

*Who else is Israel since "all Israel" is NOT Israel?

*Who are "the children of promise"?

It's trying to tell you...but you'd rather hold to your false "two people of God" theory. Yet Paul tells us in Ephesians 2:14-16 that Jews and Gentile were both MADE ONE BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST!

14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

There's no refuting that...THE TWO ARE ONE...not two...God is concerned with the Spirtual Israel who are Abraham's SEED.

Abraham's SEED is THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. As Galatians 3:16 says:
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

Now "easily" refute that.