Observing Torah

My thought is that the early Church spoke pretty definitively on this.

Zoe1188 said:

Lately I've been thinking and praying over whether or not the law of the OT is still valid for us Christians. In Matthew 5 17-20 Jesus seems pretty clear that he wanted his disiples to remain faithful to the Torah laws.

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"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

The passage doesn't at all suggest what you argument. Note what I bolded.

Jesus is the fulfilment of the Law. All salvation was accomplished at the cross; the old way passed and the new way began.

Jesus is the Law, nailed up on the cross.

I also know later, Paul seems to say otherwise, but to me it seemed like a very important issue in the Gospels and except where Jesus amended certain laws in the Sermon on the Mount, the Gospel does not say to disregard the OT Laws

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What St. Paul teaches is not in contradiction, for he teaches as I did above; Jesus is the Law nailed up on the cross. He did what no one else could: fulfill it perfectly. When we are baptized in Him, we too are nailed up with Him. When we partake Holy Communion, we receive His same New Life. Thus, we are not subjugated by the Law.

Any thoughts?

p.s PLEASE be civil

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Judaizerism was declared to be a heresy in the 1st century. I see no reason to resurrect a theology that died in the 2nd century. It is a theology of works-righteousness that denies the salvific nature of Christ Jesus and as such Anglicanism's 39 Articles declares it unorthodox.

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Steve Petersen said:

Come on over to the Messianic Judaism forum if you want a different perspective than traditional Christian interpretation on this topic.

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Promoting your theology here is not allowed, particularly if it is contrary to our own.

Anglicanism recognizes Judaizerism for the heresy it is. This isn't your place to promote it.

PaladinValer said:

Promoting your theology here is not allowed, particularly if it is contrary to our own.

Anglicanism recognizes Judaizerism for the heresy it is. This isn't your place to promote it.

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I will delete it and go to PM.

Sorry.

There was a time when I held a pretty intense interest in Messianic Judaism. When it comes to studying the Bible, they don't mess around. I've gotten a lot of insights from reading MJ blogs and stuff.

Still, the key issue is are they right? Ultimately, the death knell for Messianic Judaism, continued Torah observance and other stuff are these passages:

But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
- Act 10:14-15 (KJV)

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
- Act 15:19-20 (KJV)

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thecolorsblend said:

But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
- Act 10:14-15 (KJV)

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
- Act 15:19-20 (KJV)

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Exactly.

The biggest issue with Judaizerism is that it attempts to Judaize one of the central teachings of the Christian faith: Grace. Grace that is unmerited and undeserved. We cannot save ourselves in and of ourselves, and even with God the Holy Spirit purifying and sanctifying our works, those works' benefits aren't anymore our own but God's as well, so even then what we do in the equation profits absolutely nothing. It is God working in us that heals our nature, so while those works have a benefit, it isn't because of us but Him.

In other words, it is a salvation by works, and works that are above and beyond at that. Who could fulfil the Law? No one. Not any of the Minor Prophets, not Daniel, not Ezekiel, no Jeremiah, not Isaiah...not Elisha nor Elijah, not Samuel...not even Moses. No one. Not one king, not one prophet, not one Levite nor priest or even high priest for that matter. Why? Because the Law condemns, but grace saves. Pure, simple grace!

Jesus did what no other could do: He fulfilled the Law. And the reason wasn't His humanity but His Divinity, which cooperated perfectly with the humanity which cooperated perfectly with the Divinity. As such, He was a Spotless Lamb to be slaughtered for all sins. By entering into covenant with Him by the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, we die with Him, we descend and are buried with Him, and we are raised in Him; we claim His righteousness as our own, and we solidify this not just with the Holy Chrismation, but with the partaking with Him in His Last Supper and in His death and His New Life; His Body and Blood...Holy Communion.

The Law brings death; grace brings life! It is a wonderful weight off anyone's shoulders that makes them cry out in joy.

Zoe1188 said:

Lately I've been thinking and praying over whether or not the law of the OT is still valid for us Christians. In Matthew 5 17-20 Jesus seems pretty clear that he wanted his disiples to remain faithful to the Torah laws. I also know later, Paul seems to say otherwise, but to me it seemed like a very important issue in the Gospels and except where Jesus amended certain laws in the Sermon on the Mount, the Gospel does not say to disregard the OT Laws

Any thoughts?

p.s PLEASE be civil

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Hi Zoe. I think there is confusion over the law. No disrespect intended but your post reflects that confusion. The law is the first five books of Moses. But, those books include several covenants. Your post speaks of "old testament" law. Are you referring to the law of the Sinai covenant?
As for Paul, he did not teach contrary to Christ, Paul taught law as well....

Ga 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? He taught law as it relates to various covenants is all. The problem I think with Jewish roots and Messianic Judaism is, they confuse and confound the covenant made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with the Sinai covenant. Gods grace is not only continued despite the Sinai covenant. The grace provided through that previous covenant is increased because of Gods faithfulness to their fathers. Which grace continues despite their increasing sin in the giving of the law in the Sinai covenant.

See these verses to confirm what Paul teaches.

7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Le 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

The Sinai covenant was not made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

De 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
De 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Abraham kept law, and commandments long before Sinai

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Zoe1188 said:

Thanks Annier for that very thoughtful response! Looks like I have more studying to do
Just to clarify, I may have misspoke in my original post. I do not think Paul contradicted Christ in any way, I was acknowledging his emphasis un saving Grace as opposed to works. I hope I didn'nt sound like I was criticizing Paul :o

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I was not sure what you were making of Paul. It is just that there is alot of unfortunate ideas about Paul in that movement. Not all of course but some. I am an ex Messianic, therefore do have some very strong opinions on somethings concerning it. The blurring of the covenants is one area I think is a real problem. Just a simple example. The passover is an event which was by and through the covenant made 400 years before to Abraham.

Ex 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Ex 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
Ex 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.

Hence the memorial of Israel's redemption, is actually a memorial celebration of the fulfillment of that covenant. The same is true of the feast of unleavened bread, and firstfruits. So much more on this could be said, but suffice it to say, they actually speak of these things as though they were of the Sinai covenant. I do not think they intend to do it, but out of habit they do. Saying things like "fulfilling the feast", instead of feasts being memorials to celebrate the events of "covenant promises being fulfilled". These terms become associated with fulfilling the law, as though the passover was a feast of the covenant of Sinai, and therefore a memorial to that covenant. The passover feast is not from Sinai.....
When we celebrate Christ our passover we too, in Christ are walking in the faithfulness of God to our father Abraham.
Shalom Zoe

Zoe1188 said:

Lately I've been thinking and praying over whether or not the law of the OT is still valid for us Christians. In Matthew 5 17-20 Jesus seems pretty clear that he wanted his disiples to remain faithful to the Torah laws. I also know later, Paul seems to say otherwise, but to me it seemed like a very important issue in the Gospels and except where Jesus amended certain laws in the Sermon on the Mount, the Gospel does not say to disregard the OT Laws

Any thoughts?

p.s PLEASE be civil

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What do you think was the purpose of the OT laws? What do you think a Christian living today stands to gain from observing them? What does he stand to lose?

PaladinValer said:

Exactly.

The biggest issue with Judaizerism is that it attempts to Judaize one of the central teachings of the Christian faith: Grace. Grace that is unmerited and undeserved. We cannot save ourselves in and of ourselves, and even with God the Holy Spirit purifying and sanctifying our works, those works' benefits aren't anymore our own but God's as well, so even then what we do in the equation profits absolutely nothing. It is God working in us that heals our nature, so while those works have a benefit, it isn't because of us but Him.

In other words, it is a salvation by works, and works that are above and beyond at that. Who could fulfil the Law? No one. Not any of the Minor Prophets, not Daniel, not Ezekiel, no Jeremiah, not Isaiah...not Elisha nor Elijah, not Samuel...not even Moses. No one. Not one king, not one prophet, not one Levite nor priest or even high priest for that matter. Why? Because the Law condemns, but grace saves. Pure, simple grace!

Jesus did what no other could do: He fulfilled the Law. And the reason wasn't His humanity but His Divinity, which cooperated perfectly with the humanity which cooperated perfectly with the Divinity. As such, He was a Spotless Lamb to be slaughtered for all sins. By entering into covenant with Him by the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, we die with Him, we descend and are buried with Him, and we are raised in Him; we claim His righteousness as our own, and we solidify this not just with the Holy Chrismation, but with the partaking with Him in His Last Supper and in His death and His New Life; His Body and Blood...Holy Communion.

The Law brings death; grace brings life! It is a wonderful weight off anyone's shoulders that makes them cry out in joy.

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The way I was always taught was that Our Lord perfectly fulfilled the Law and when we put true faith in Him, His perfect obedience is imparted to us such that when God looks at us, in His accounting we have perfectly kept the Law.

On that basis, trying to keep the Law under our own merits is almost an insult because (A) we will fail and (B) there's a way to perfectly keep the Law already on the table by placing our faith in Our Lord.

That's the way I was taught but I'm learning that's not as common as I assumed among other believers.

Zoe1188 said:

Lately I've been thinking and praying over whether or not the law of the OT is still valid for us Christians. In Matthew 5 17-20 Jesus seems pretty clear that he wanted his disiples to remain faithful to the Torah laws. I also know later, Paul seems to say otherwise, but to me it seemed like a very important issue in the Gospels and except where Jesus amended certain laws in the Sermon on the Mount, the Gospel does not say to disregard the OT Laws

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Matt. 5:17-20 is Special M material, that is, a pericope unique to the Gospel of Matthew. This likely reflects the theology of the Matthean community rather than being derived from an authentic saying of Jesus. I'd suggest a read of Ulrich Luz's magisterial commentary.

Zoe1188 said:

Lately I've been thinking and praying over whether or not the law of the OT is still valid for us Christians. In Matthew 5 17-20 Jesus seems pretty clear that he wanted his disiples to remain faithful to the Torah laws. I also know later, Paul seems to say otherwise, but to me it seemed like a very important issue in the Gospels and except where Jesus amended certain laws in the Sermon on the Mount, the Gospel does not say to disregard the OT Laws. Any thoughts?

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Hi, Zoe1188.

The question about the interpretation of Matthew 5 17-20 is a good question. Several approaches are possible, and perhaps in a later post I'll discourse on them. For now, I ask: Assuming for the sake of argument that your perfectionist reading of Mt 5.17-20 is the right one, what are the implications for your workaday life? What practices would you adopt that you might not otherwise?

I will also note that I have never been satisfied with legalistic analogies like "Old Testament is to ancien regime as New Testament is to French Republic", which is presupposed by all talk of the Law being "set aside" or "abolished". I also find the argument "Jesus obeyed the law so we don't have to" to be prima facie as absurd as saying "that car is stopping for the red light so I don't have to." Those who ask questions like yours deserve better than mere simplistic answers.

Zoe1188 said:

I've come to the realization, after reading the 613 commandments of the OT, that most of them that apply to life today are ones that most Christians already follow, and that their isn't much need for specific "Torah observance" so to speak.
I tend to get over zealous at times.

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The true Law is this: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your strength, and with all your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.

That's all we must do. Do this, and we will have done what the Lord our God commands of us.

The 613 no one can do. The above can be done with God's help. The Law condemns; grace saves!

Zoe1188 said:

Lately I've been thinking and praying over whether or not the law of the OT is still valid for us Christians. In Matthew 5 17-20 Jesus seems pretty clear that he wanted his disiples to remain faithful to the Torah laws. I also know later, Paul seems to say otherwise, but to me it seemed like a very important issue in the Gospels and except where Jesus amended certain laws in the Sermon on the Mount, the Gospel does not say to disregard the OT Laws

Any thoughts?

p.s PLEASE be civil

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As others have said in this thread, the church worked this out early on: Jesus fulfilled the law. Even in Judaism, Gentiles aren't even bound by the law. According to Judaism, I would only be obligated to keep the law by converting to Judaism, and even then only some Jewish communities will even recognize that conversion.