POLL: Darby and M MacDonald and Pre trib

Was Darby's use of M MacDonalds dream, actually a hoax set up by post trbbers

  • no, it happened and it is a pre trib dream/vision

  • no, it happened and it is a post trib dream/vision

  • not sure, never looked into it

  • yes, no dream at all. it is all fiction

  • yes. notible post tribbers have wholly invented it to discredit pre trib theology


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T

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The dream was not from the Lord in the first place

The girl McDonald was not a Bible prophet

The dream has the "church" going through the tribulation

McPherson is a hoaxter who uses the same to prove that the pre-tribulation "rapture" is a lie of the devil .... and even purports that McDonald was possessed by a demon

He then goes on to tell that Darby must have gotten His pre-tribulation view from the vision

None of this makes any sense at all ... because it is a hoax

McPherson and Bray tell a story that has no truth to it and should not be followed by anyone
 
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Biblewriter

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It is remotely possible that reading about or hearing of Margaret MacDonald’s alleged vision of a pre-tribulation rapture started him thinking on the subject. But there is no evidence that he even knew about this particular alleged vision. Some years ago Dave MacPherson capitalized on this lack of evidence with a book titled “The Incredible Cover-up.” In this book MacPherson added to the falsehood of the original accusation by claiming that Darby had covered up his contact with Margaret MacDonald. He devoted the entire book to a newspaper-like exposé to prove Darby had in fact visited Margaret MacDonald’s church, which was called the Catholic Apostolic Church. This was completely false. Darby not only did not cover up his visits there, but he openly wrote about them. He called this group the “Irvingites” because their main teacher was a man named Edward Irving. In the following account he referred to himself as the “Irish Clergyman” because he had been called that in the article he was answering, which had been written by a Mr. Newton. Notice that this account specifically mentions “Two brothers (respectable shipbuilders at port Glasgow, of the name of M’D – ), and their sister” as chief speakers at the meetings he attended. So he not only wrote about his visit to Margaret MacDonald’s church, but specifically mentioned her as a speaker at these meetings.

“But I must here (without any reproach to Mr. N., as it is a matter of memory) recall some facts, and rectify some statements. At Pentecost the languages were universally understood by those who spoke them; the Irvingite tongues never by any one: a notable difference. And this is so true, that after first trying their hand of making Chinese of it. It was suggested among them that it might be the tongue of angels, as it was said, “If I speak with the tongues of men and angels” – delightful idea!
“Mr. N. is quite exact in his account of the report of the “Irish Clergyman,” or at least of what the “Irish Clergyman” saw and heard. There was a pretended interpretation. Two brothers (respectable shipbuilders at port Glasgow, of the name of M’D – ), and their sister, were the chief persons who spoke, with a Gaelic maid-servant, in the tongues, and a Mrs. J. – , in English. J. M’D – spoke, on the occasion alluded to, for about a quarter of an hour, with great energy and fluency, in a semi-latin sounding speech – then sung a hymn in the same. Having finished, he knelt down and prayed there might be an interpretation; as God had given one gift, that He would add the other. His sister got up at the opposite side of the room, and professed to give the interpretation; but it was a string of texts on overcoming, and no hymn, and one, if not more, of the texts was quoted wrongly. Just afterwards there was a bustle; and apparently some one was unwell and went into the next room; and the gifted English-speaking person, with utterances from the highest pitch of voice to the lowest murmur, with all strange prolongation of tones, spoke through (if one may so express oneself, as if passing through) the agony of Christ. Once the Gaelic servant spoke briefly in “a tongue;” not, if the “Irish Clergyman” remembers right, the same evening. The sense he had of the want of the power of the Holy Ghost in the church made him willing to hear and see. Yet he went rather as deputed for others than for himself.
“The excitement was great, so that, though not particularly an excitable person, he felt its effects very strongly. It did not certainly approve itself to his judgement; other things contributed to form it. It was too much of a scene. Previous to the time of exercising the gifts, they read, sung psalms, and prayed, under certain persons’ providence (one of them a very estimable person, who has since seen free from all this, and a minister of an independent or some dissenting church in Edinburgh, then a church-elder). This being finished, the “Irish Clergyman” was going away, when another said to him, “Don’t go: the best part is probably to come yet.” So he stayed, and heard what has just been related. He was courteously admitted, as one not believing, who came to see what was the real truth of the case. The parties are mostly dead, or dispersed, and many freed from the delusion, and the thing itself public; so that he does not feel that he is guilty of any indiscretion in giving a correct account of what passed.
“It may be added, without of course saying anything that could point out the persons, that female vanity, and very distinct worldliness, did not confirm, to his mind, the thought that it could be the Spirit’s power. The M’D – s were in ordinary life quiet, sober men, and, he believes, most blameless. Their names were so public that there is no indelicacy in alluding to them.” (From “The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby” second ed., Vol 6, pp 448-450, William Kelly, ed., London, G. Morrish, not dated.)

Further evidence against the accusation that Darby got this idea from Margaret MacDonald’s supposed vision is Darby’s opinion of her group as a whole. He wrote:

“The people called Irvingites have been plainly convicted elsewhere of so much false doctrine, false practice, and false prophecy, and that by many of the Church of God, as to make it, when known, a question only of preserving God’s children against the deceits and crafts of Satan... they have been often charged with holding the sinful humanity of Christ, and many of their teachers and disciples have, to the writer of this and to other persons avowed it -- that He had the carnal mind, but kept it down or dead. Mr. Irving, bold and fearless in the statement of what he held, declared that his nature bristled with sin like quills upon a porcupine; and that the nature with which the Son of man was clothed poured forth from the center of its inmost will streams as black as hell; and that the Augean stable of this nature was given Him to cleanse; and, what was most material, the spirit which they profess to be the Holy Ghost, though it might not sanction the language, expressly sanctioned the doctrine, the doctrine to which it gave its sanction being, that the law of sin was there all-present.
“Now this was so plainly wicked and evil, and contrary to God’s word and Spirit, that they have, since they have been pressed with it, taken great pains, at least the subtler ones among them, to disclaim and deny this. I say the subtler ones; because it has been not long since avowed by some of their teachers to the writer of this. The way they have gotten over the Spirit’s having sanctioned it is, that they were not answerable for what was said, that is, in utterance by the Spirit, before the ordinances were set up. One of these very ordinances said to the writer of this, that the Spirit might have said it through prejudice to please Me. Irving. I only mention this to shew the unhappy degradation to which men may be reduced by giving way to the leadings of an evil spirit.” (From “The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby” second ed., Vol 15, pp 3-4, William Kelly, ed., London, G. Morrish, not dated.)

But it is not only the group that Darby condemned as Satanic, but their alleged prophetic visions. He further wrote that “It may not be generally known that the ‘gifts’ among the Irvingites were founded on this doctrine of Christ being a sinner in nature like ourselves. Mr. Irving’s statement was that he had long preached the ‘gifts,’ but there was nothing for the Holy Ghost to testify to; but when he preached this doctrine they came as a witness to it. His teaching moreover on the subject was confirmed by what was received as the prophetic power amongst them.”(From “The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby” second ed., Vol 6, pp 450-451, William Kelly, ed., London, G. Morrish, not dated.)

Finally, Margaret MacDonald’s own notes of this alleged vision plainly show that, although it included a pre-tribulation rapture of some of the saints of God, this was only a partial rapture. If Darby had been relying on any supposed authority behind this alleged vision, he would have made his rapture doctrine a similar partial rapture, instead of the universal rapture of all true believers in Christ which he taught, and which almost all pre-tribbers still teach today.
 
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This is interesting to me because I knew nothing of Darby or this other McDonald person. I've heard people say again and again that Darby created the pre-trib doctrine but that always seemed unreasonable to me considering I'm able to read the bible for myself and reach my own conclusions. Interestingly, if Darby taught a full rapture I would have to disagree with him. That's just me though. It doesn't mean I'm right. Anyway, I would vote here but I'm afraid I don't qualify due to lack of knowledge of the two people in question.
 
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Biblewriter

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This is interesting to me because I knew nothing of Darby or this other McDonald person. I've heard people say again and again that Darby created the pre-trib doctrine but that always seemed unreasonable to me considering I'm able to read the bible for myself and reach my own conclusions. Interestingly, if Darby taught a full rapture I would have to disagree with him. That's just me though. It doesn't mean I'm right. Anyway, I would vote here but I'm afraid I don't qualify due to lack of knowledge of the two people in question.

Actually, the earliest distinct statement of a rapture before the great tribulation was published by Irenaeus sometime between the years 186 and 188. He wrote in general terms of the evil of the nations and then said:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption'" (Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXIX, section 2.)

We need to notice the following elements in this short statement:

First, the church will be "suddenly caught up."

Second, after the church is "Suddenly caught up," "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." Lest anyone claim that this is not specifically stated to be after “the church is "suddenly caught up," please note that the grammatical construction (when) -- (one event takes place) -- (a second event takes place) has two possible meanings. It either means that the two events will take place at the same time or it means that the second event will take place after the first event. But it cannot mean that the second event takes place before the first event. In this case the first event is clearly instantaneous and the second event will obviously consume a significant period of time. So it is unreasonable to argue that the writer’s intention was anything other than to state that this “tribulation” would take place after the church is “suddenly caught up.”

Third, this period of tribulation is specifically called "the last contest of the righteous." and it explicitly says of these righteous in this particular contest, "in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

It is a well known part of pre-trib doctrine that that after the church is "suddenly caught up" there will be a righteous remnant that will undergo a great trial of faith, and that, when they triumph in this trial, they will be crowned with righteousness. Many students differentiate between the “tribulation” (the entire seven year period) and the “great tribulation” (the last three and half years.) This last appears to be the position held by Irenaeus.

But in any event, this statement clearly teaches that the rapture will occur before the great tribulation.

There is also a document, whose age and author is unknown, but which is known to have been in Church libraries before the year 800. Based on events referred to in this document as impending, various scholars have estimated its date from as early as 373 to as late as 627. As scholars do not believe the unknown author could have been the famous Ephraem the Syrian, (who is also known as Ephraem of Nisbis) they call this unknown author Pseudo-Ephraem. This document says,

“Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: ‘Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!’ For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” (“On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” author unknown but called Pseudo-Ephraem, section 2. - From “The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition,” by Paul J. Alexander, Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985, 2.10. Cited there from “Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters,” C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Christiania, 1890, 208-20. As found online at On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, andthe End of the World .)
 
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I've only heard about Darby through post-trib peoples. I don't think many pre-trib believers credit Darby much for anything, if they even know who he is. This is my first time hearing of McDonald. I'm curious to know more about these people now though.
 
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joeboonda

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I concur with Biblewriter. The early Christians were looking for Jesus Christ to return and meet them in the air and keep them from the tribulation. Ephraem had it right. Hal Lindsey in "Vanished Into Thin Air" (the blessed hope of every believer) explains the pre-trib view quite well for anyone interested. There are around 15 differences between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming, like we meet Christ in the air compared to coming with him as he comes TO the earth splitting the Mount of Olives in half with his feet. It truly is our blessed hope and knowing we may be with the Lord at any moment should spur us on to live each second we have here for him. Knowing I may not taste physical death and knowing I am eternally secure because of Christ's finished work gives me great joy and hope.
 
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"I've only heard about Darby through post-trib peoples. I don't think many pre-trib believers credit Darby much for anything, if they even know who he is."


There is a reason for your hearing .... post-trib people as you call them are exactly the ones who have been deceived by by those like MacPherson

One who has the correct biblical view of the pre-tribulation "rapture" never uses the girl's purported vision to support the same .... why? .... because it does not

... and most of these have no idea about this entire hoax of MacDonald's contrivance, only those who have been around for a number of years who have taken the time to investigate

Here is what is happening

Most divisions of professing "Christianity" today have been deceived by those the follow over a long period of time [in some cases centuries]

And the majority have been taught false post-tribulation theology which is required to support other dogmas held by the organization .... if the Lord comes to immortalize His ecclesia before the tribulation [which He will], then the entire system of the denominational persuasion will be at risk and questioned by the membership

I will be posting examples of this soon and this will expose many who engage in the false teaching as part of their individual "church" doctrines

So this is the real reason why so many have attached to MacPherson's hoax, and don't know it .... because it fits with what they have been taught by their "church"

His ruse is very popular among those who follow the same because it lines up with their particular proprietary "church" dogma

Then when they are told that they are wrong and have been taught error, this tends to drive them into hostile behavior .... it shakes their confidence and threatens their individual religious persuasions .... this is understandable

When shown how an individual like MacPherson devised his story [and he is not the only one by the way] that they have been using, knowingly or unknowingly, to validate their position, they come unglued and will attempt in vain to prove otherwise

They simply cannot do it if they are honest about the facts place before them

The professing "church" today with its many faceted offerings is in a state of confusion and apostasy .... the salt is gone and biblical Christianity is almost non-existent

The day is coming when the Lord will change the course of the affairs of humanity abruptly .... and proceed to bring His terrible hour of trial and judgment upon a world that has refused to believe the truth about Him and who He is

.... and when He has finished with it, the kingdoms of this world will become His .... and He is going to rule with a rod of iron

Make certain that you are ready just as He has said .... this "Thief" will come at a time when no one expects [no one can know the dating of His intervention] and in a flash He will take His ecclesia to Himself, and the world will then be plunged into His most unprecedented judgment .... do not second guess this God and Savior of mankind
 
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bibletruth469

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zeke37 said:
hi.
I am mainly interested in pre tribbers answering this poll please.
anyone can chime in, but only pre tribbers answer the poll pls.

Well, I haven't looked into their beliefs and I have never heard of those people before. I only have read vague references to them on this forum. I am not one the go and pull up random u tube videos for the fun of it . A lot of it is just nonsense and not worth my time. I love to go deep into Gods word and let the Holy Spirit teach me through His word. I strongly believe in a pre trib rapture and I believe that the literal interpretation of scripture shows this view.
 
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Biblewriter

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thanks for the information James

why do u think so many pre tribbers still accredit him and McD'd's vision?

I do not think even one pre-tribber credits McD's vision. But many pre-tribbers have, through ignorance, accepted the story that the doctrine originated with Darby. He was indeed the person who popularized it in the nineteenth century. But one of my specialties is searching old writings to disprove false claims that the truth is somethng "new."
 
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You are correct BW


Darby did not invent the Lord's intent to keep His ecclesia from His coming hour of trial and judgment .... those who belong to Him have no need to be judged, if so this would make His salvation null and void

Darby just discovered what has already been revealed by the Lord Himself .... and Darby was not alone as you say

It is men like McPherson who have come to deceive and pervert the truth about the matter with ulterior motives .... his behavior is evident and many before Him have done the same over the centuries, and continue the same today .... not a new thing
 
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Biblewriter

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You are correct BW


Darby did not invent the Lord's intent to keep His ecclesia from His coming hour of trial and judgment .... those who belong to Him have no need to be judged, if so this would make His salvation null and void

Darby just discovered what has already been revealed by the Lord Himself .... and Darby was not alone as you say

It is men like McPherson who have come to deceive and pervert the truth about the matter with ulterior motives .... his behavior is evident and many before Him have done the same over the centuries, and continue the same today .... not a new thing

When we come to provably false accusations, they should be called what they are - lies.

But we should be careful about calling the honestly held beliefs of others lies or Satanic. I honestly believe post trib is a lie concocted by the devil to keep people from their true hope in Christ. But stating it that way is counter productive in attempting to show people the truth.
 
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Biblewriter said in post 5:

Actually, the earliest distinct statement of a rapture before the great tribulation was published by Irenaeus sometime between the years 186 and 188. He wrote in general terms of the evil of the nations and then said:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption'" (Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXIX, section 2.)

Even though in Against Heresies, Book 5, chapter 29, paragraph 1, Irenaeus (or maybe only the translator) uses the words from Matthew 24:21, Irenaeus, in the language of his original manuscript, may have actually quoted, or may have been thinking of, the differently timed, yet similar sounding, Daniel 12:1-3, which refers to the time of the resurrection of the church into immortality at the post-tribulation, 2nd-coming time of the defeat of the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

For Irenaeus connects his quoted "tribulation" reference to the time when "the righteous" will be "crowned with incorruption", i.e. resurrected or changed into incorruptible/immortal bodies. And no people can be called "the righteous" (cf. Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus and his sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no people who have that faith are outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And the people who will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into incorruptible/immortal bodies at Jesus' 2nd coming (when he will defeat the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast: Revelation 19:20), will be the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

So in the passage from Irenaeus, the "tribulation" referred to by him could be only Daniel 11:45 to 12:3's post-tribulation, 2nd-coming time of trouble which will come upon the Antichrist and all the world's armies at the 2nd-coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which battle the church will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) and then caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Biblewriter said in post 5:

There is also a document, whose age and author is unknown, but which is known to have been in Church libraries before the year 800. Based on events referred to in this document as impending, various scholars have estimated its date from as early as 373 to as late as 627. As scholars do not believe the unknown author could have been the famous Ephraem the Syrian, (who is also known as Ephraem of Nisbis) they call this unknown author Pseudo-Ephraem. This document says,

“Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: ‘Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!’ For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” (“On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” author unknown but called Pseudo-Ephraem, section 2. - From “The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition,” by Paul J. Alexander, Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985, 2.10. Cited there from “Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters,” C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Christiania, 1890, 208-20. As found online at On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, andthe End of the World .)

When the unknown writer of the document called "Pseudo Ephraem" says that "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation" (Section 2), he doesn't mean prior to the tribulation of Matthew 24. For that would contradict the scriptural teaching that the elect are gathered immediately "after the tribulation" of Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem mistakenly thought that the first half of Matthew 24's tribulation had already occurred by his time, and that all that was left to happen was the time of the Antichrist: "Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord [cf. Matthew 24:6-7], they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [cf. Matthew 24:15-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8]" (Section 2).

And the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that the church will have to go through that time of the Antichrist: "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [cf. Revelation 12:14], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the udders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs" (Section 8). There's no salvation apart from being a Christian (John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). The writer of Pseudo Ephraem again in Section 9 shows that the church will have to go through the time of the Antichrist: "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord". No one is just or found good (Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no one who has this faith is outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And in Section 4, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that some in the church will die during the time of the Antichrist: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them". So in the latter half of Section 2, when the writer of Pseudo Ephraem says "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation", he doesn't mean prior to Matthew 24's tribulation. What he means is partially found in the first half of Section 2: "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world". What the writer means by "the confusion" (and so also by "the tribulation") is explained in Section 10: "Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth".

So the writer of Pseudo Ephraem is referring to the confusion and destruction of the Antichrist and all the world's armies at the 2nd-coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which battle the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and to be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7).
 
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joeboonda said in post 8:

Hal Lindsey in "Vanished Into Thin Air" (the blessed hope of every believer) explains the pre-trib view quite well for anyone interested.

The blessed hope (Titus 2:13) is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is the hope of believers (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).

No Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for her birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).
 
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Even though in Against Heresies, Book 5, chapter 29, paragraph 1, Irenaeus (or maybe only the translator) uses the words from Matthew 24:21, Irenaeus, in the language of his original manuscript, may have actually quoted, or may have been thinking of, the differently timed, yet similar sounding, Daniel 12:1-3, which refers to the time of the resurrection of the church into immortality at the post-tribulation, 2nd-coming time of the defeat of the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

For Irenaeus connects his quoted "tribulation" reference to the time when "the righteous" will be "crowned with incorruption", i.e. resurrected or changed into incorruptible/immortal bodies. And no people can be called "the righteous" (cf. Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus and his sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no people who have that faith are outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And the people who will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into incorruptible/immortal bodies at Jesus' 2nd coming (when he will defeat the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast: Revelation 19:20), will be the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

So in the passage from Irenaeus, the "tribulation" referred to by him could be only Daniel 11:45 to 12:3's post-tribulation, 2nd-coming time of trouble which will come upon the Antichrist and all the world's armies at the 2nd-coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which battle the church will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) and then caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).



When the unknown writer of the document called "Pseudo Ephraem" says that "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation" (Section 2), he doesn't mean prior to the tribulation of Matthew 24. For that would contradict the scriptural teaching that the elect are gathered immediately "after the tribulation" of Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem mistakenly thought that the first half of Matthew 24's tribulation had already occurred by his time, and that all that was left to happen was the time of the Antichrist: "Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord [cf. Matthew 24:6-7], they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [cf. Matthew 24:15-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8]" (Section 2).

And the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that the church will have to go through that time of the Antichrist: "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [cf. Revelation 12:14], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the udders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs" (Section 8). There's no salvation apart from being a Christian (John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). The writer of Pseudo Ephraem again in Section 9 shows that the church will have to go through the time of the Antichrist: "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord". No one is just or found good (Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no one who has this faith is outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And in Section 4, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that some in the church will die during the time of the Antichrist: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them". So in the latter half of Section 2, when the writer of Pseudo Ephraem says "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation", he doesn't mean prior to Matthew 24's tribulation. What he means is partially found in the first half of Section 2: "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world". What the writer means by "the confusion" (and so also by "the tribulation") is explained in Section 10: "Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth".

So the writer of Pseudo Ephraem is referring to the confusion and destruction of the Antichrist and all the world's armies at the 2nd-coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which battle the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and to be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7).

If you were passing judgment on whether or not so-and-so had correctly interpreted scripture, then your opinion of the actual meaning of scripture would be a valid basis for judgment. But that is not a valid basis for judgment when the subject is not whether or not the person in question was correct, but what he actually meant by the words he said.

So your injection of your interpretation of the meaning of scripture into a discussion of the meanings of the words of certain individuals is simply pointless.

As to your claim that the rapture cannot be until after the tribulation because the elect are gathered after the tribulation, this is an invalid argument because the scriptures twice call Israel God's elect.

These two places are:

"And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there." (Isaiah 65:9)
"They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands." (Isaiah 65:22)
 
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If you were passing judgment on whether or not so-and-so had correctly interpreted scripture, then your opinion of the actual meaning of scripture would be a valid basis for judgment. But that is not a valid basis for judgment when the subject is not whether or not the person in question was correct, but what he actually meant by the words he said.

So your injection of your interpretation of the meaning of scripture into a discussion of the meanings of the words of certain individuals is simply pointless.

As to your claim that the rapture cannot be until after the tribulation because the elect are gathered after the tribulation, this is an invalid argument because the scriptures twice call Israel God's elect.

These two places are:

"And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there." (Isaiah 65:9)
"They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands." (Isaiah 65:22)

True. And we know that the Jews and many gentiles will understand who the Messiah is during the tribulation, so they are also God's elect described in scripture.

But we should stay on topic people. It's not a pre-trib vs post-trib debate thread and I hope it doesn't turn into yet another one.
 
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You are exactly correct BW with you posting just above

The post-tribulation ruse has kept many in the dark for centuries and right up to this very day

Those who teach and use it do so for their own appropriation of Israel's furture position for their religious movements and orgnizations [most of the professing church today]

B2 is an MSOG teacher who tells that Revelation 12 is all about his "church" [the woman] affiliations who claim to be Israel in the tribulation period

B2 must thereby refute a pre-tribulation "rapture" in order to make his [her] theology stand .... so he [she] must drop back to the post-tribulation ruse
 
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