The antichrist

Yes, I believe Islam is here to stay until God's wrath. If we look to the Middle East especially these days, there is a definite tribulation. The Copts are getting the worst of it. If we read in Revelations 6:11, a white robe was given to each of them and they were told they should rest a little while until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren would be killed as they were, was completed.

bushinoki said:

I agree, the Roman Church is not the place to look for the Antichrist. "He will worship a god his fathers did not know." Sorry, I don't remember the book, chapter and verse. I'm looking for someone with a lofty sounding PhD. Probably someone educated primarily in Europe, but with a stint at one of the US's Ivy League schools.

I stopped to pray about it, because I felt I wasn't done, and then I picked up a Bible, and this was the verse that struck me:
Psalm 12:3-4 "May the LORD cut off all flattering lips, the tongue that makes great boasts, those who say,"With our tongue we will prevail, our lips are with us; who is our master?"

I see Antichrist being one who talks big, but comes across as philosophical, almost humble and spiritual, but above all else, sees himself as his own master.

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Sounds like your describing a member of the CFR who is a food activist and blogger and was recently hailed as a messiah.

"They destroy the Vatican, the harlot"

Come on Doug .... the Vatican?

Are you telling that Revelation 18 is a description of the Vatican?

.... no way

The reformers and re-constructionist movements have done this to your own thinking .... none of them had a clue about today's conditions upon the earth and not only that they hatched more ideas about the Lord's prophetic word that would fill a tanker

I think you need to read Revelation 18 many more times .... this is not a picture of the Vatican by any stretch, or Jerusalem as some have conjured up

The descriptions given defy any such idea about either of which the destruction would cause the worldwide upheaval in view

And by the way the "woman" is not the RCC ..... she is much bigger, she is the entire world of lost humanity at the end of this present age

From the flood and her city building [Babel] to escape the Lord's providence .... to the same ends this very day .... still going on .... mans' rebellion against the Lord in its final and last stage

She is the many cities of many population centers across the globe .... she is MBG

.... and she has a core "city" that dominates the others with regard for business, commercial, and trading of the human materialism, vice, corruptions, murders, warefare, violence, and false religions all for the pleasures of a lost world .... this "great city" is not the Vatican of today ... the one who has been instrumental in the killing of all who have ever been slain on the earth in one way of another this is what lost humanity does .... in one way or another

Time Watcher said:

"They destroy the Vatican, the harlot"

Come on Doug .... the Vatican?

Are you telling that Revelation 18 is a description of the Vatican?

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As far as the identity of the harlot. Yes.

.... no way

The reformers and re-constructionist movements have done this to your own thinking .... none of them had a clue about today's conditions upon the earth and not only that they hatched more ideas about the Lord's prophetic word that would fill a tanker

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No it has nothing to do with the reformers.

I think you need to read Revelation 18 many more times .... this is not a picture of the Vatican by any stretch, or Jerusalem as some have conjured up

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The harlot is the Vatican, and the city is Rome.

The descriptions given defy any such idea about either of which the destruction would cause the worldwide upheaval in view

And by the way the "woman" is not the RCC ..... she is much bigger, she is the entire world of lost humanity at the end of this present age

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The location of where the woman sits give it away as being Rome and harlot the Vatican.

From the flood and her city building [Babel] to escape the Lord's providence .... to the same ends this very day .... still going on .... mans' rebellion against the Lord in its final and last stage

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The followers of the Antichrist-beast will have his name unscripted upon their heads. But they themselves are not the Antichrist. Likewise, the woman has the inscription Mystery Babylon the Great on her head, but she herself is not mystery Babylon.

.... and she has a core "city" that dominates the others with regard for business, commercial, and trading of the human materialism, vice, corruptions, murders, warefare, violence, and false religions all for the pleasures of a lost world .... this "great city" is not the Vatican of today ... the one who has been instrumental in the killing of all who have ever been slain on the earth in one way of another this is what lost humanity does .... in one way or another

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1. The city where the woman sits is Rome. She also sits on many waters; RCC worldwide, influence with all governments.

2. The woman is the Vatican. The woman herself is not Mystery Babylon the Great.

3. Mystery Babylon the Great is Nimrod's Babylon unified rebellion against God manifested in the end times.

a. Nimrod is the beast in the bottomless pit.

b. Will ascend out of the bottomless pit to possess the end time Antichrist to lead the world in unified rebellion against God.


Doug

Sorry ... I don't think so Doug

Nimrod is dead ... and he is certainly is not the fallen angel of the abyss noted in Revelation 9:11

The RCC .... no .... apostate teaching to the core .... yes .... just as many other movements of professing Christianity are today

But the most dogmatic and "antichrist" of all is that of the Muslims

Time Watcher said:

Sorry ... I don't think so Doug

Nimrod is dead ... and he is certainly is not the fallen angel of the abyss noted in Revelation 9:11

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Nimrod is dead to this world. He is not coming back, another life born into this world as a little baby; but briefly for 42 months as an unclean spirit to possess the Antichrist. I gave you the verses which indicate that Nimrod had the Nephillim gene in him.

The RCC .... no .... apostate teaching to the core .... yes .... just as many other movements of professing Christianity are today

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The RCC, specifically the Vatican, as the harlot in Revelation 17 is an apostate teaching to the RCC. I mentioned this in a post at Catholic Answers Forums.com. It got me banned. Here is the friendly message I receive at that site:

Your account has been locked for the following reason:
anti-Catholic agenda
This change will be lifted: Never

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...... oh brother, it was just an off handed comment to a muslim I was discussing the end of Islam, Gog/Magog. They did, however, keep me on their emailing list to ask me for donations........

Are you Catholic?

But the most dogmatic and "antichrist" of all is that of the Muslims

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Islam is certainly antichrist in spirit. But the muslim are not to worship the Mahdi. The beast in Revelation 13 will be worshiped. Therefore, he cannot be the Mahdi, followed by a several billion crazed Muslims with 666 on their foreheads.

Doug

The ANTICHRIST is he who is in place of Christ pretending to be Christ.

The ANTICHRIST is also called the little horn in Daniel' Revelation.

If you understand who the little horn is and why he claims to be the king of the north, we need to understand him to be the eighth king, where eight symbolises resurrection. This resurrected king is also the seventh in line to the six that were before him when the beast that was and is not and yet is again is established for his reign.

Remember Daniel talks about the building up of Jerusalem for the coming of the messiah, however the Jerusalem built up today is for this seventh incarnated king who is labeled symbolically as the king of the north.

Isaiah 41:25
I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come:
from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name:
and he shall come upon princes as upon morter,
and as the potter treadeth clay.

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So Jesus Christ is the true king of the north, yet this little horn claims that he is and by making this claim he is saying that he is God Almighty on earth.

North therefore symbolizes the ultimate Kingly authority as used quite often in the Holy Bible.

Who is the little horn?

Isaiah 14:13-14
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

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Do you now discern that the little horn is Satan incarnated in flesh counterfeiting Christ's incarnation. As you can see satan has an I complex I I I.

"Are you Catholic?"


Get real Doug

No I am not a Catholic .... I am a biblical Christian

The RCC is a religion of tradition .... not biblical .... these think that the Bible is outdated and ineffective

Time Watcher said:

"Are you Catholic?"


Get real Doug

No I am not a Catholic .... I am a biblical Christian

The RCC is a religion of tradition .... not biblical .... these think that the Bible is outdated and ineffective

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I went back and re-read you comment. I misunderstood what you originally wrote.

Doug

7spiritfilled said in post 119:

Let's not forget about the Harlot. This could be the Roman catholic church.

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Note that while the corrupt aspects of the RCC (and of other churches) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the RCC. For the RCC just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the RCC the only organization that buys merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the RCC responsible for the killing of all martyrs (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the RCC just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the RCC been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

(See also post 112)

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Hint:

The seals of the scroll containing the coming judgments of the tribulation are not actual events, but signify a preview of what is about to take place

These "seals" represent the prevailing conditions that will exist upon the earth during the coming tribulation .... not the events themselves [Revelation 8 thru 19]

The seals must all be removed before the scroll can open .... and this the Lord will do [Revelation 5:1-5]

If you are confusing the symbolic seals with the actual judgment events this practice will hinder your understanding

The prevailing conditions signified by the seals are the following:

The preaching of the Lord's gospel of His coming millennial kingdom
Intense angelic and human warfare
Global economic collapse and results
Massive human death
Martyrdom
Human reaction to the Lord's judgments

The last seal removed [a short silence in heaven just before the judgments fall for providing protection for those of 7:1-8] leads to the beginning of the actual judgments

Johnpreacher said:

Discover who the Real Beast is, where mystery Babylon the Great is, located and so much more.

Just search for Armageddon News on Youtube

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Well the Antichrist is not going to be the muslim Mahdi because the Antichrist in the fourth and final stage of his career will be worshiped as God - which is the major sin in Islam. The muslim are to not worship the Mahdi.

Anyone can go to any muslim discussion board and ask the Muslims themselves if they are to worship the Mahdi. Which they will adamantly say no.

Of course, that would mean that some people's favorite scenario of the Antichrist being the Mahdi is not workable. And some people are not willing to adjust their view.... even in light of the facts.


Doug

lone survivor said:

The beast that was and is not cannot be Rome because Rome was at the height of it's power when Revelation was written. Rome isn't a city of seven hills. The word hills (oros) is better translated 'mountain.' Rome is not a city of seven hills or mountains anyway. There are seven hills east of the Tiber river. Vatican hill is on the west side of it making 8 hills total. Also it wasn't the religious factions of Rome that destroyed the temple. It was the political factions. The Roman Legion under General Titus that destroyed the temple was X Fretensis and was based in Antioch in southern Turkey. These troops were Arabs, Syrians and Turks who are today almost 100 percent Muslim.
There are many more reasons why Rome and the Catholic Church will have nothing to do with end-time prophecy. But that's for another thread.

God bless...

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But the city of Rome is known as the city of the seven hills. Back at the time of Revelation given to John, the Vatican did not exist. That the Vatican is not in Rome proper is irrelevant imo.

The prince who shall come is from the people who destroyed the city and temple, which was the Romans, the Roman army. Where the individual troops were from is irrelevant. The Antichrist himself does not have to be from Rome, but his lineage will be Roman. When Catholics refer to the Vatican in a matter of church of authority, they often times simply say "Rome". It is after all the "Roman" Catholic Church. The Pope came about from the bishop of Rome.

Islam is not going to produce the Antichrist, if that is your argument, because Muslims are not to worship the Mahdi - which the Antichrist-beast will be worshiped by his followers for 42 months.

The Pope is not going to be the Antichrist, nor false prophet because the Antichrist has to be a Jew in order for the Jews to embrace him as their perceived messiah, the another that Jesus said to Nicodemus they would accept.


Doug

lone survivor said:

The beast that was, and is not, and shall..
John was speaking about a time in the past, (that was) Rome was in power so that negates a beast "that was." And is not...That negates Rome since it was at the peak of it's power when he wrote it.. and shall... The beast that arises in the future cannot have anything to do with Rome since the first two sections of John's statement eliminates Rome from being the future beast. If someone prophesy's about something that's already in existence that makes them a false prophet.

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Revelation 17:8 the first part, is talking not about an empire, such as the Roman empire, but an individual who lived before John's time but was dead at the time of John... was then and presently still is in the bottomless pit.

Revelation 17:8 the second part, is talking about the end times Antichrist, a person living in our generation.

The prince who shall come was fulfilled in AD 70. I don't believe that's the man of sin since I don't accept the gap theory of Daniel's 70th week. And I'm not a preterist. I just don't accept that view of Daniel 9.
Here's a challenge for you.

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Do you acknowledge that there has been so far, a 2000 year gap between Jesus's first coming and his second coming?

Quote one verse of prophecy where Rome is specifically implied.

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Not as the beast in Revelation 17. I don't hold the view that the beast is an empire in that chapter. However, in the dualistic representation in Revelation 13, the first beast is of an individual and an empire.

The empire part is easy to prove because of the component make up of the
bear, leopard, lion referring back to Daniel 7, which in turn, ties back to Daniel 2 the four empires, which Rome was the legs of iron.

In Revelation 13, with 42 months left before Jesus Returns, the end times version of the Roman Empire, the EU final form, will have gained control of the territories of the other three historic empires, basically the oil producing states in the middle east.

The king ruling at the time of John (the sixth of the seven prophesied kings) was a Roman emperor - so I don't know why you think Rome is not implied.

I can prove Islam is the religion of the two horned beast and that it will produce the man of sin.

But that's for another thread.

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You can't if you research Islam to know that they are not to worship the Mahdi or any kind of image, which the second beast has made of the first beast.


Doug

"The prince who shall come was fulfilled in AD 70. I don't believe that's the man of sin since I don't accept the gap theory of Daniel's 70th week. And I'm not a preterist. I just don't accept that view of Daniel 9."


Right about Islam .... wrong about what you call a "gap" theory

There is not one event upon the earth recorded in the prophetic visions between the ending of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th

You fall to the preterist and the post-tribulation thinker without recognizing the breach of silence in the visions of the Bible prophets every time .... and you will win no argument

The silence in the visions slams the door upon them .... they will still rant, but you can shut them out

Here's a challenge for you

Produce one significant earth event between the 69th and the 70th and show me ... you cannot do it

And I do not mean any scriptures other than those contained within the scope of the prophets visions and the Lord's own discourse on the matter

You and Doug have some good understanding to a point, but both of you have some degree of limitation with your structure .... in fact, enough for you both to miss the overview

Doug says Rome and no worship of "Allah" by the Muslims .... and you operate under the period of silence between the 69th and 70th week decreed

Victory come to those who understand

"I think I know who that person is"


Tell me

Satan's beast of Revelation is not human

... and this is how it is possible for this beast to live as long [once was, now is not, and will come out of the abyss to rule again]

Both of you will argue in futility until you get the kinks straightened out in your thinking

The breach .... yes

Rome .... no

Islam .... yes

Little horn .... a human who will rise in the northern region of the Middle East and confederate the Muslim states who worship the false pagan moon "god""Allah" [a cover for Satan] into his kingdom .... yes

"I tell nothing I want not to tell. It's actually pretty simple to figure out as long as you're willing to change your mind and are not bound to what you already believe. If Satan's beast of Revelation isn't human then why are there several personal pronouns used to describe him? Why is he called the man of sin. An Empire is a man with a kingdom. A beast is no different"


You do not know who the first beast of Revelation's unfolding is .... still referred to as a "he", but not human

Your argument above is futile .... not the subjects

And it is because you both need adjustment with the same

Enough to keep you from convincing others ..... the holes are vulnerable to the preterist and post camps .... they both know enough to take advantage

Seek out and adjust .... this is a worthwhile task