Atheists in Heaven?

RKO · Sep 12, 2013

Pope Francis assures atheists: You donât have to believe in God to go to heaven - Europe - World - The Independent

stone · Sep 12, 2013

These are his words,

I start by saying and this is the fundamental thing that Gods mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart.

He says that they must go to him.

Atheist will not enter into the kingdom. There is only one way.

Rhamiel · Sep 12, 2013

I think the main thing is that the Pope is trying to start a dialogue between believers and unbelievers

especially in Europe and even in South America, the idea is that there is a separation between the secular and the religious really puts a stop to the public dialogue

Michie · Sep 12, 2013

Nobody goes to heaven or hell for that matter & remains an atheist. Atheists only exist in this life on earth. A very temporary title to claim.

Colin · Sep 12, 2013

Pope Francis is teaching what was taught by the 21st Ecumenical Council of the Church . In the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium the Council Fathers taught : " Nor does divine Providence deny the help necessary for salvation to those who , without blame on their part , have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God , but who strive to live a good life , thanks to His grace . "

eastcoast_bsc · Sep 12, 2013

1“The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out at dawn to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2After agreeing with them for the usual daily wage, he sent them into his vineyard. 3Going out about nine o’clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4* and he said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard, and I will give you what is just.’ 5So they went off. [And] he went out again around noon, and around three o’clock, and did likewise. 6Going out about five o’clock, he found others standing around, and said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ 7They answered, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard.’ 8* a When it was evening the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Summon the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and ending with the first.’ 9When those who had started about five o’clock came, each received the usual daily wage. 10So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more, but each of them also got the usual wage. 11And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, 12saying, ‘These last ones worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who bore the day’s burden and the heat.’ 13He said to one of them in reply, ‘My friend, I am not cheating you.* Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? 14* Take what is yours and go. What if I wish to give this last one the same as you? 15[Or] am I not free to do as I wish with my own money? Are you envious because I am generous?’ 16* Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

....

MKJ · Sep 12, 2013

eastcoast_bsc said:
....The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out at dawn to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2After agreeing with them for the usual daily wage, he sent them into his vineyard. 3Going out about nine oclock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4* and he said to them, You too go into my vineyard, and I will give you what is just. 5So they went off. [And] he went out again around noon, and around three oclock, and did likewise. 6Going out about five oclock, he found others standing around, and said to them, Why do you stand here idle all day? 7They answered, Because no one has hired us. He said to them, You too go into my vineyard. 8* a When it was evening the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, Summon the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and ending with the first. 9When those who had started about five oclock came, each received the usual daily wage. 10So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more, but each of them also got the usual wage. 11And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, 12saying, These last ones worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who bore the days burden and the heat. 13He said to one of them in reply, My friend, I am not cheating you.* Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? 14* Take what is yours and go. What if I wish to give this last one the same as you? 15[Or] am I not free to do as I wish with my own money? Are you envious because I am generous? 16* Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last.

Sometimes I get the impression that people are ticked off at the idea that non-believers or non-Christians might be in Heaven.

Michie · Sep 12, 2013

eastcoast_bsc said:
....

Good post.

Michie · Sep 12, 2013

MKJ said:
Sometimes I get the impression that people are ticked off at the idea that non-believers or non-Christians might be in Heaven.

I don't think people are ticked off. But it challenges the belief that Jesus is the only way to heaven. But Paul clarifies this in Scripture about being judged by one's own conscience for those that have not heard the Gospel. We can't get to heaven by our own merits. Eventually everyone accepts or rejects Jesus Christ.

hsilgne · Sep 12, 2013

I am hopeful the Vatican will produce an English version of the letter. There are two differing translations that I have found.

The one from zenit.org is the one that sounds 'troubling' to many Christians. Here is the controversial quote...

"First of all, you ask me if the God of Christians forgives one who doesnt believe and doesnt seek the faith. Premise that and its the fundamental thing the mercy of God has no limits if one turns to him with a sincere and contrite heart; the question for one who doesnt believe in God lies in obeying ones conscience. Sin, also for those who dont have faith, exists when one goes against ones conscience. To listen to and to obey it means, in fact, to decide in face of what is perceived as good or evil. And on this decision pivots the goodness or malice of our action."

And then there's this translation from republica.it which translates this portion of the letter differently...

"First of all, you ask if the God of the Christians forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith. Given that - and this is fundamental - God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience. In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil. The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision."

The 'zenit' version does sound troubling to me. Because if sin is simply going against ones conscience then one can argue that, 'insert sin here',(let's use abortion for example) is only sinful to those who believe it's sinful and not sinful to those who don't believe such.

Whereas the other translation is more generalized and could be understood as many are eluding to... that every person has the 'Law of God' written on their hearts and as such 'knows' right from wrong and has the ability to discern as much.

hsilgne · Sep 12, 2013

Another portion of the letter that stands out to me is...(As stone pointed to - I will paraphrase) 'if one goes to God with a contrite heart'...

This point here is crucial. Because whomever goes to God asking for forgiveness... #1 - is no longer an atheist without faith and #2 - recognizes their sin and the need to repent and accept the Lord's sacrifice and covering under His blood.

.

MKJ · Sep 12, 2013

hsilgne said:
Another portion of the letter that stands out to me is...(As stone pointed to - I will paraphrase) 'if one goes to God with a contrite heart'...

This point here is crucial. Because whomever goes to God asking for forgiveness... #1 - is no longer an atheist without faith and #2 - recognizes their sin and the need to repent and accept the Lord's sacrifice and covering under His blood.

.

But can this only happen in this life? When we stand before God, we'll see what he is. If we were atheists in our earthly life, can we throw ourselves on God's mercy then?

MKJ · Sep 12, 2013

hsilgne said:
The 'zenit' version does sound troubling to me. Because if sin is simply going against ones conscience then one can argue that, 'insert sin here',(let's use abortion for example) is only sinful to those who believe it's sinful and not sinful to those who don't believe such.
.

St Paul says this too though, quite clearly I think. People are judged by the law they know, the law written on their hearts.

football5680 · Sep 13, 2013

Like usual they take his statement and distort the true meaning. Atheists go to hell for rejecting God. Hell is not a punishment, it is a choice. If you choose to reject God then your free will is respected by God and he gives you what you want. Everyone in hell will know they made the wrong choices in life.

MikeK · Sep 13, 2013

MKJ said:
Sometimes I get the impression that people are ticked off at the idea that non-believers or non-Christians might be in Heaven.

Me too

Rhamiel · Sep 13, 2013

MKJ said:
St Paul says this too though, quite clearly I think. People are judged by the law they know, the law written on their hearts.

and since all have sinned and all have fallen short of the law, the same law that is written on their hearts, they are not being judged by some outside force, but they are condemned by their own heart

I think CS Lewis wrote something on this

also, without Christ, all are spiritually dead...

sometimes I just think I was born in the wrong century

Lady Bug · Sep 13, 2013

MKJ said:
Sometimes I get the impression that people are ticked off at the idea that non-believers or non-Christians might be in Heaven.

Me too.

Rhamiel · Sep 13, 2013

MKJ said:
Sometimes I get the impression that people are ticked off at the idea that non-believers or non-Christians might be in Heaven.

I think it is demeaning to Christ and His saving work to say that people can reject Christ and still go to heaven

either that or it is demeaning to human free will "yeah you can reject Christ all you want, guess what, your choices do not matter, you are still going to heaven"

the only time this would not be the case would be true examples of Invincible Ignorance, where someone never heard of the Catholic Faith or was never presented with the true Catholic Faith

edit
and Invincible Ignorance only opens up the possibility of Salvation, it is not an assurance of salvation

heavenlessstar · Sep 14, 2013

Rhamiel said:
I think it is demeaning to Christ and His saving work to say that people can reject Christ and still go to heaven

either that or it is demeaning to human free will "yeah you can reject Christ all you want, guess what, your choices do not matter, you are still going to heaven"

the only time this would not be the case would be true examples of Invincible Ignorance, where someone never heard of the Catholic Faith or was never presented with the true Catholic Faith

edit
and Invincible Ignorance only opens up the possibility of Salvation, it is not an assurance of salvation

This is the big issue to me. What did Jesus Christ have to go to the cross for? Why would he become that sacrificial lamb if it wasn't needed?

Personally, I would be thrilled to learn that acceptance of Christ was not necessary for salvation because I have unsaved loved ones - beautiful people who I hold dear - that simply do not believe Jesus Christ is who we believe his is. I don't want them to perish but the Bible is pretty clear on the fate of those who reject Christ. :c

Sumwear · Sep 14, 2013

heavenlessstar said:
This is the big issue to me. What did Jesus Christ have to go to the cross for? Why would he become that sacrificial lamb if it wasn't needed?

Personally, I would be thrilled to learn that acceptance of Christ was not necessary for salvation because I have unsaved loved ones - beautiful people who I hold dear - that simply do not believe Jesus Christ is who we believe his is. I don't want them to perish but the Bible is pretty clear on the fate of those who reject Christ. :c

I don't see what the big qualm about it is. there have been numerous accounts of non-christians behaving more christian than supposed christians. believing in Christ alone doesn't guarantee one a one-way ticket to heaven. by extension, not believing in Christ doesn't guarantee one an elevator ride down. unselfish acts, good deeds, fighting for the greater good. these are things that will come into play when one is laid to rest.

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