Why Do So Many Want To Be Raptured?

shturt678

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The Lord's prophetic word is of extreme significance because it authenticates His communication of the scriptures as truth .... those who ignore, manipulate, or do not understand this can be drawn off by false teaching [2 Peter 1:16-21]

The Lord did not give His propheticword for naught and has called some to convey it to others for a witness to the unsaved, and for reassurance to the membes of His eclesia .... I am a prophecy teacher and this what I do

.... it sounds like you are a bit opposing, but I will answer your question anyway

You are among the few who connect Joel 2:1-11 with these passages of scripture [Zechariah 14:4-5; Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 19:11]

Many have no idea what is contained in Joel and most do not spend much time in the OT today

The primary and overall focus of the prophet is about the mortal end time remnant of national Israel …. and not to the Gentile component of His ecclesia

The Lord speaks to Israel’s past intransigence toward Him and at the same time tells of His intent to save a remnant part of the nation to participate in the restoration of their kingdom which He has delayed because of the nation’s rejection of Him as Messiah and King …. this condition will change in part during the coming time of tribulation for them [the time of “Jacob’s” trouble]

So Joel is really about national Israel in the tribulation and those mortals who will turn to the Lord during the period, and it is these who will enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom restored upon the earth

He is asking for the remnant to prepare for this great and terrible day of the Lord and particularly with regard to Armageddon at the end of the 70th week decreed for them

However, His army of His immortal ecclesia described in verses 2:2-11 consists of not only of the saved immortals of Israel, but also the immortal Gentiles …. it is this supernatural immortal army that will be with the Lord as He moves to route the armies of Satan’s beast and followers who will be occupying Israel at the time

He will start at Bozarah [Jordan wilderness east of Jerusalem] and drive the beast’s armies all the way to the borders of Nimrod in the northern regions of Iraq today destroying them along the way [Isaiah 63; Ezekiel 38; 39; Joel 2:20; Micah 5:5-6; Revelation 14:14-20; 16:1-16; 19:11-21]

It is the immortals of His pre-tribulation ecclesia who will be with Him to contend against Satan’s beast and human followers at Armageddon [Joel 2:1-11]

There is no difference between the Gentiles and the nation Israel (the Jews) after 70 A.D., ie, regarding "salvation."

Joel's prophecy partially happened already, ie, outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and the final "Judgment" obviously hasn't happened yet, ie, "Preliminary judgments" that most are oblivious to, is in full blown now.

Revelation not quite 'chronological' a litotes, ie, "7" distinct endings of the world with "1" Parousia.

Just ol' old Jack's opinion
 
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T

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Ever read this vision Jack?

What the does the Lord say?

Ezekiel
36:1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:

36:2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:

36:3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:

36:4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;

36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.

36:6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:

36:7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.

36:8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.

36:9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:

36:10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:

36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

36:12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

36:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:

36:14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD.

36:15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD.

36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.

36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.

36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
 
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zeke37

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Some seek the tribuation .... want to be purified by the Lord's wrath against unbelief

The ecclesia of Jesus Christ are already saved and have no need for judgment against them .... this is what the Lord's salvation is all about

Those who will be martyred in the tribulation by the beast are not of today's ecclesia .... they will turn to the Lord during the tribulation period [Revelation 14:13]

To think otherwise makes a contradiction and mockery of the Lord's gift of salvation

the gift of salvation has nothing to do with a fictional pre trib rapture

One is not saved by works, but by faith in the One who is willing and able to save them

Who told you that you are going into the tribulation zeke?

God did, through His inspired writers in the Bible,
over and over and over again.

Why do so many want the Lord's judgment upon them and seek His coming hour of trial upon an unbelieving world?
because we as Christians have always had tribulation.
and the tribulation to come, is not His wrath that we are kept from.
His wrath that we are not kept from, begins after the trib.

and judgement for the patiently faithful, is full of reward.

Did the pre-diluvians seek the flood?
only Noah and his family.
but they rode out the storm, and landed on the other side

Here is the world that will experience His coming judgment [Matthew 24:36-39; Luke 21:35]
and Christ is speaking specifically to Christians in Mat24/Mar13....
telling them what must happen before His return

"we" will be "in" the world during that time,
hence all the Christian warnings and promises
 
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zeke37

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There is no difference between the Gentiles and the nation Israel (the Jews) after 70 A.D., ie, regarding "salvation."

Joel's prophecy partially happened already, ie, outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and the final "Judgment" obviously hasn't happened yet, ie, "Preliminary judgments" that most are oblivious to, is in full blown now.

Revelation not quite 'chronological' a litotes, ie, "7" distinct endings of the world with "1" Parousia.

Just ol' old Jack's opinion
and here I thought I was alone in seeing 7 parts to Rev :thumbsup:
 
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zeke37

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Pre Trib, Mid Trib, Post Trib raptures - I do not see any of them in the Bible. When the Lord Jesus Returns in His glory, there will be a 'rising up to meet Him', this seems to be the 30 day marriage supper event. Also, righteous Israel, the 'Woman', will be flown on the wings of the great eagle, to a place of safety on earth during the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation. Any other speculations such as a removal to heaven is un-scriptural.
As I say in #121 I am looking forward to the amazing blessings the Lord has promised to His people, of a gathering and settling in all of the holy Land, soon after this Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath -
well, basically, that's post trib.
the "rapture" means seizing,
not up to heaven, but to where ever the Lord is.
the scene is a play off of the Feast of Trumpets

the 6th seal, the next prophesied event.
imo it is only men that THINK it is His wrath of God coming in the 6th seal.
and the type of men that say it is, are the type that have to hide from His Coming
it is not a declaration from an angel or from the Throne,
it is a declaration made by the seduced

why? mainly because the moon is not the same as we read of in the prophets
about the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord

it's a blood moon in the 6th seal,
where as it is a new moon (no moon) during the Day of the Lord
so these events cannot take place at the same time

the 6th seal does not = the Day of the Lord
 
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'God did, through His inspired writers in the Bible,
over and over and over again"


I think you have a persecution complex zeke

Give me a verse or two about your need to receive the Lord's wrath ... some of those that you speak of "over and over again"

His coming hour of trial upon the earth will be unprecedented and for a very different purpose that you think

Not only that but you may not even be alive when it comes .... so how will you qualify .... do you think that your works will save you?

Your post tribulation theology teaches you to separate the Lord's coming tribulation and judgment [His hour of trial] from His wrath .... a strange thing to think

It will be all the same during an extend period of time just as Revelation tells from chapter 8 thru chapter 19 .... there is no implication of separation by degree

No difference .... where do you think all of the judgments of the period come from zeke

Here is where all of this will start [Revelation 6:12-17] .... will you be one of those who hides from Him?
 
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zeke37

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'God did, through His inspired writers in the Bible,
over and over and over again"


I think you have a persecution complex zeke
huh?

Give me a verse or two about your need to receive the Lord's wrath ... some of those that you speak of "over and over again"
I don't want the Lord's wrath.
but in all honesty, i'm not sure if I need it or not.
but the wrath is not the trib.

some of us see His wrath in different ways.
it will defeat evil when He comes, we all see that....
but it will also, during the Mill, refine those of us
that failed the end time test
as that is the Mill's purpose....refinement!


what I have repeatedly said,
is that the tribulation is not the wrath of God
that we as believers are promised to be kept from

while the trumps are surely judgements allowed by God
the wrath of God begins at tribs end, at last day
iow seals and trumps are not His wrath, the vials are.

His coming hour of trial upon the earth will be unprecedented and for a very different purpose that you think
and what purpose do u think, I think it's for?
and what purpose do u say it is for?

Not only that but you may not even be alive when it comes .... so how will you qualify ....
what do u mean how would I qualify?
if i die before the trib, then I will overcome by being one of the dead in Christ
i'd have to wait in heaven, until the time come to be raised back here forever.
so i'd leave heaven and return here with Him at His Coming/Appearing (same thing)
at the Resurrection of all those that the Father gave the son.

now, that is not a pre trib event
as much as u wanna believe it is.
it's at the last day.

folks love to debate Rev
it's order, etc...

but even so, the 7th trump is surely not pre trib....
and that is where we see the beginning of the time of the dead
and the promise of reward for the good, and judgement for the bad
that is the fulfillment of the feast of trumpets
and it is NOT pre trib

do you think that your works will save you?
no...do u?

Your post tribulation theology teaches you to separate the Lord's coming tribulation and judgment [His hour of trial] from His wrath .... a strange thing to think
why?
the trib is not His wrath that we as believers are kept from.
Rev makes a very plain distinction between the event before the vials and during the vials
the vials are the wrath of God

It will be all the same during an extend period of time just as Revelation tells from chapter 8 thru chapter 19 .... there is no implication of separation by degree
there are 7 distinct parts to Rev, with only one Coming/gathering
No difference .... where do you think all of the judgments of the period come from zeke
from the beast. God allows it.
it's the test.

if u follow the beast during the trib, then u receive Gods wrath at His Coming

Here is where all of this will start [Revelation 6:12-17] .... will you be one of those who hides from Him?
men declare the 6th seals info. they could be wrong as men are most of the time in the bible.
they only THINK it is the Day of the Lord
the moon does not line up with it being the Day of the Lord, so the 6th seal is not the Day of the Lord

since I don't believe that is the wrath of God, I won't be hiding.

so u have to decide if u believe the dozens and dozens od OT prophets works describing the Day of the Lord
or if u wanna throw out what they said and errantly believe the 6th seal is the Day of the Lord

it's up to you.
but be honest.
look at the OT prophets, and read about the Day of the Lord

what will the moon be like at that day?
it's a big deal
 
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"men declare the 6th seals info. they could be wrong as men are most of the time in the bible.
they only THINK it is the Day of the Lord"


Whose revelation? .... I believe it is the Lord's do you think? [Revelation 1:1]

Who removes the 7 seals from the scroll .... could this One be wrong?

So are you telling me that Revelation 6:1-17 is flawed?

That there could be errors in the passage?

I have much difficulty with your response .... unbelievable ... or maybe you do not think that all scripture is God breathed?

What does the Lord tell about those on the earth in Matthew 24:36-39?

Will His sudden intervention be a shock to them?

How could this be?

According to you the same will go thru some sort of pre-judgment and then His "wrath" will be meted out at the end of it

Will they be eating, drinking, marrying, etc, during the former?

.... I don't think so

Will they not be warned and know that something is up?

The Lord tells no ... they will not have a clue

How can He say this?

Post-tribulation thinking has many flaws and simply lacks a comprehensive and logical explanation of the prophetic scriptures
 
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shturt678

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and here I thought I was alone in seeing 7 parts to Rev :thumbsup:

For some reason this makes the most passive Christians 'punchy,' ie, take boxing skills learning to duck, ie, decades of experience. If your lucky, you'll get off with a Church 'trespass warning' - even in some of the modern Lutheran Churches.

Combine the former with the Trumpets of preliminary judgments - Lord's wrath this moment [5th and 6th Trumpets, ie, "error's working (delusions) of IIThess.2:11, 12 expounded], hire a body guard, ie, in the churches which is astonishing.

Just ol' old very unpopular Jack
 
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zeke37

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"men declare the 6th seals info. they could be wrong as men are most of the time in the bible.
they only THINK it is the Day of the Lord"


Whose revelation? .... I believe it is the Lord's do you think? [Revelation 1:1]
sure, Jesus Christ's.
He reveals that men declare what they declare, in the 6th seal.

Jesus told us all about the Day of the Lord all through scripture.
the moon has characteristics at the day if the Lord,
that are not in the 6th seal.

so? what d u make of that then?

and the men declaring it are men that think they have too try and hide from His Coming
so they are the deceived ones anyway


Who removes the 7 seals from the scroll .... could this One be wrong?
no, why would u say that?

So are you telling me that Revelation 6:1-17 is flawed?
no. only men's perception of what it means.

I am saying that it is not a declaration from an angel or from Jesus or God's throne.
it is a declaration of deceived men, that think they need to hide from His Coming

iow, the men that declare it is wrath time, are wrong like men of the world are in the bible.

it's trib time, not wrath time.

That there could be errors in the passage?
no. the error is that u assume what they say is true.
it is clearly a scene from BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord

I have much difficulty with your response .... unbelievable
oh well.

... or maybe you do not think that all scripture is God breathed?
why would u say that?
it's not the scripture that is in contention.
it is the interpretation of it that is in contention.

What does the Lord tell about those on the earth in Matthew 24:36-39?
I love that passage and the verses surrounding it.
but u got keep reading all the way to the end of the chapter.

it is a direct pre trib counter from God.

the bad guys are taken in the flood (the trib),
and the good guys continue working for Him in the field/at the mill/as a watchman
and for doing so, are blessed at His Coming (after the trib)
but the others, not working, are given their portion with the hypocrite
(His wrath will fall on them, even if they call themselves Christians)

that's what the repeated patience message is all about.

Will His sudden intervention be a shock to them?

How could this be?
sorry I don't know what u are referencing.
His intervention ends the trib.

According to you the same will go thru some sort of pre-judgment and then His "wrath" will be meted out at the end of it
I never mentioned pre-judgement.
we have always faced tribulation.

we, the church, are going to be here for all of it.
there is a false Messiah coming.
I am convinced that he will pretend to be Jesus
he will try to seduce as many of us as he can into believing that he is Jesus
which is where the "worship" of him as God, comes into play

if u fall for his lies, then u are of them that "knew not"
and thus u will be taken in the flood
u will be given your portion with the hypocrites instead of with the bride.

the hypocrites receive God's wrath at the end of the trib,
as a punishment for failing it(worshiping the false Messiah)


Will they be eating, drinking, marrying, etc, during the former?

.... I don't think so
the point is that the folks of Noah's day
did not believe Noah about the coming flood.
they had a 100 years to prepare, but didn't, and all drowned

only Noah and his family believed.
they represent the elect.
only elect will believe when the time comes

other Christians will not even realize we are in that time
because they will think things are normal, fine, ok, just progress, etc.
(plus half of u expect to be raptured before it, so u could never be in it right? ;) :doh: lol)

that's the 1Thes5 part.
if we are elect, we are not going to be taken by that time unaware.
we will know when it is, and thus prepare for it as God instructed us to prepare for it

kinda like how we think of things today, as normal,
but if u could time travel some historic Christian from 2000 years ago
or 1000 years ago, or even 100 years ago, to today,
and ask them if this current society is normal,
they'd say NO WAY, it's ungodly to the extreme.

Will they not be warned and know that something is up?
they would not see the signs if it hit them in the face.
blinded because they love not the truth
only those LOOKING will KNOW when they are IN it,
thus KNOW the SEASON of the Lord's return

the blind CAN include professed Christians, if they are unfaithful
and fall for the deceptions of the false Christ
as he attempts to seduce Christians into worshiping him as God

The Lord tells no ... they will not have a clue
only the elect will.

How can He say this?
because it won't go down the way most think it will.
the elect WILL know, the rest WON'T know the season.

Post-tribulation thinking has many flaws and simply lacks a comprehensive and logical explanation of the prophetic scriptures
hey, I would have said that bout pre trib
in fact, the pre trib flaw lead me to post trib....well, it's variations.
the evidence for post trib is overwhelming,
but the evidence for pre trib does not exist,
except in speculation and wishful thinking
 
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zeke37

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For some reason this makes the most passive Christians 'punchy,' ie, take boxing skills learning to duck, ie, decades of experience. If your lucky, you'll get off with a Church 'trespass warning' - even in some of the modern Lutheran Churches.

Combine the former with the Trumpets of preliminary judgments - Lord's wrath this moment [5th and 6th Trumpets, ie, "error's working (delusions) of IIThess.2:11, 12 expounded], hire a body guard, ie, in the churches which is astonishing.

Just ol' old very unpopular Jack
not sure if I understand u correctly,
but I don't call what is going on today, His wrath.
falling away, yep, but not wrath.
in the 5th trump, death is not even an option for men.
it is not God's wrath, it is still the for-runner to it.
 
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coraline

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If someone were to ask me whether I would prefer to be raptured; or, if I would like to be like the army described in joel 2, I am going to go with joel 2 cause that sounds awesome!

Check it out
Joel 2:3-6 NIV

Before them fire devours,
behind them a flame blazes.
Before them the land is like the garden of Eden,
behind them, a desert waste—
nothing escapes them. They have the appearance of horses;
they gallop along like cavalry. With a noise like that of chariots
they leap over the mountaintops,
like a crackling fire consuming stubble,
like a mighty army drawn up for battle. At the sight of them, nations are in anguish;
every face turns pale.

I don't know about you, but that is what I want for Christmas this year. :pray: What are your thoughts?

I suspect that many don't want to finish the race because it is not easy.
 
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shturt678

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not sure if I understand u correctly,
but I don't call what is going on today, His wrath.
falling away, yep, but not wrath.
in the 5th trump, death is not even an option for men.
it is not God's wrath, it is still the for-runner to it.

If you understood, and approved, the older translated from high German interpretation of the Trumpets, not only would you affirm God's wrath today, but plunge into a deep depression for a few months. Hopefully fallacious, and all's well. At least you got the "7" endings which most haven't the least conception of, nor really even care.

Just ol' old Jack looking for ear plugs due to the thunderous noise of the Trumpets blasting now.
 
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zeke37

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If you understood, and approved, the older translated from high German interpretation of the Trumpets, not only would you affirm God's wrath today, but plunge into a deep depression for a few months. Hopefully fallacious, and all's well. At least you got the "7" endings which most haven't the least conception of, nor really even care.

Just ol' old Jack looking for ear plugs due to the thunderous noise of the Trumpets blasting now.
enlighten me with a link pls. thx:)
 
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If someone were to ask me whether I would prefer to be raptured; or, if I would like to be like the army described in joel 2, I am going to go with joel 2 cause that sounds awesome!

Check it out
Joel 2:3-6 NIV

Before them fire devours,
behind them a flame blazes.
Before them the land is like the garden of Eden,
behind them, a desert waste—
nothing escapes them. They have the appearance of horses;
they gallop along like cavalry. With a noise like that of chariots
they leap over the mountaintops,
like a crackling fire consuming stubble,
like a mighty army drawn up for battle. At the sight of them, nations are in anguish;
every face turns pale.

I don't know about you, but that is what I want for Christmas this year. :pray: What are your thoughts?

This is describing satan's army,just thought Id share that....But I do ask the same question,why do people want to be raptured.....
 
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This is describing satan's army,just thought Id share that....But I do ask the same question,why do people want to be raptured.....

Whether we will or won't be raptured aside, cause you know the argument is coming, people see the option of being with Jesus as soon as possible (and finally being free of this sinful nature, mocking world, and mortal bodies) versus going into the worst period of time in the history of the world. It's really a no-brainer; people want to be with Jesus as soon as possible. I hate what this world is becoming. Almost everything is laced with physical, mental, or spiritual poison.

Rarely does a day go by that I don't want to see my blessed Savior and know that ALL my troubles are BEHIND me! Of course, there's a part of me that would be willing to go into the great tribulation because I have loved ones that I would like to be able to guide, if I can. But who can say for sure that I would be able to save anyone? Anyway, if given the choice, I can't put anyone or anything before the opportunity to meet Jesus Christ as soon as possible.
 
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zeke37

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This is describing satan's army,just thought Id share that....But I do ask the same question,why do people want to be raptured.....
ya, that's what I thought to, even if sanctioned by God to happen.

Whether we will or won't be raptured aside, cause you know the argument is coming, people see the option of being with Jesus as soon as possible (and finally being free of this sinful nature, mocking world, and mortal bodies) versus going into the worst period of time in the history of the world. It's really a no-brainer; people want to be with Jesus as soon as possible. I hate what this world is becoming. Almost everything is laced with physical, mental, or spiritual poison.

even parts of Christianity ;)

Rarely does a day go by that I don't want to see my blessed Savior and know that ALL my troubles are BEHIND me! Of course, there's a part of me that would be willing to go into the great tribulation because I have loved ones that I would like to be able to guide, if I can. But who can say for sure that I would be able to save anyone? Anyway, if given the choice, I can't put anyone or anything before the opportunity to meet Jesus Christ as soon as possible.
I hear ya, but we don't have a choice in when that happens.
everyone meets Him on the same last day
 
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n2thelight

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We can all post scriptures that support our interpretations but how often does that accomplish anything? I won't waste my time defending the pre-tribulation harpazo - that's not even what this thread is meant for. Back to the topic, the tribulation is going to be hell on earth. There's Satan's wrath and God chastising nations. Earthquakes, storms, wars, tsunamis, threats from space. Billions die in less than seven years. I'm not gonna stop praying to be counted worthy to escape the hour of temptation and stand before the Son of man. We're commanded to, after all.

Matthew 10:28

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

satan has no wrath,the tribulation is all about deception,of him(satan)pretending to be Christ.....

Why would you want to escape anyway,this is the time that we as Christians should make a stand,and how do we ?

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

This is also the time that true tongues shall be spoken again,when the Holy Spirit shall speak through us....

Mark 13:9 "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake,, for a testimony against them."

Mark 13:10 "And the gospel must first be published among all nations."


Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost [Spirit]."

Christians have been dying since forever for the Word of God,in more horricfic ways imaginable,now what makes you special,that you get to escape?????

And besides satan can't go around killing people anyway,and have them believe he is Christ!!!!

Again it's all about deception
 
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Bible2

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Time Watcher said in post 159:

The ecclesia of Jesus Christ are already saved and have no need for judgment against them ...

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's judgment or wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his judgment or wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

Time Watcher said in post 159:

The ecclesia of Jesus Christ are already saved and have no need for judgment against them ...

Replace the idea of "judgment" with the idea of "testing", and one can see that while the faithful might "have no need" of testing, they can still be tested. The tribulation's purpose with regard to the righteous church in all nations having to suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6) could be the same as the purpose of righteous Job having to go through his suffering at the hands of Satan (Job chapters 1-2), and the purpose of the righteous, literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) having to suffer and die in a first century persecution (Revelation 2:10).

Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), Job first suffered the loss of his wealth and his servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14,15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But Job remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was completed, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3), and giving him the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against Job, for Job was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when God allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) to make war against Biblical Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust God that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

Time Watcher said in post 159:

One is not saved by works, but by faith in the One who is willing and able to save them

Initial salvation is by grace through faith without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5). But other passages show that initially saved people must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For believers must actually continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance that believers will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Time Watcher said in post 159:

Here is the world that will experience His coming judgment [Matthew 24:36-39; Luke 21:35]

Extend the idea of Matthew 24:36-39 into the subsequent verses, Matthew 24:40-41, and see the parallel verses of Luke 17:26-37. These passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of church to bring his 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).
 
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shturt678

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enlighten me with a link pls. thx:)

Mr. R.C.H. Lenski's "Commentary on the N.T." is the only Commentary in cyberspace that is in the ball-park......last I checked, not a freebee. I use Mr. Martin Chemnitz's Commentary forward to about 1918's other works; and older so called outdated 'sermons' in high German, etc. that I miraculously pulled out of the various libraries in Germany, and in the U.S about 3 decades ago while doing my graduate work, ie, libraries were my second home.

What attracted me to the older high German was their very old 'sermons' on Rev.6:2, ie, their view of the power of the Word riding out against the enemies of the Lamb (in accord with Rom.1:18) more than a Rom.1:16 kind of thing, ie, I still cannot find fault with their works. Mr. Lenski's English Commentary was the only one that was close compared to the older works.

You will have to reject, but thank you for caring. Just ol' old really outdated Jack, agape Matthias Loy's Commentary also.
 
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