seat of Moses...

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visionary

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Yeshua said listen to those that sit on Moses Seat.
Not according to the translation version I presented....

IN some ways we are doing the same argument that the Karaites are having with the orthodox. They derive their laws from the written scriptures of the Hebrew Bible, rejecting the binding nature of the oral law of the Talmud, the rabbinical interpretations that came later and guide mainstream Judaism.
 
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Papias of Hierapolis, c. 125–150 CE wrote: "Matthew collected the oracles (logia – sayings of or about Yeshua) in the Hebrew language (Hebraïdi dialektōi) and each one interpreted (hērmēneusen — or "translated") them as best he could." Matthew - David L. Turner - Google Books

pg 15-16

Introduction to the New Testament: History and Literature of Early Christianity - Helmut Koester - Google Books
DuTillet_pg1.jpg

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews n their own dialect while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the church." - Irenaeus, Adv. Haer. 3.1.1

"As having learnt by tradition concerning the four Gospels, which alone are unquestionable in the Church of God under heaven, that first was written according to Matthew, who was once a tax collector but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, who published it for those who from Judaism came to believe, composed as it was in the Hebrew language." - Origen (Eusebius, H.E. 6.25.4)

The Christian historian Eusebius of Caesarea (263-339), heir to the extensive library of Pamphilus, that kept a copy of the original text of Matthew, if not the same original text, confirmed in chapter 24 of the third book of his “Ecclesiastical History” that Matthew “wrote in Hebrew the Gospel that bears his name”.
History is a trip in examining which specific aspects tend to get more focus above others at times.
 
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Not according to the translation version I presented....

IN some ways we are doing the same argument that the Karaites are having with the orthodox. They derive their laws from the written scriptures of the Hebrew Bible, rejecting the binding nature of the oral law of the Talmud, the rabbinical interpretations that came later and guide mainstream Judaism.

I'm only going by what Yeshua said.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Yeshua said listen to those that sit on Moses Seat.
I like what Brother Shimshon said best elsewhere:


The same way David respected the authority of Saul, Yeshua respected the authority of Moses. He did not speak against the authority given to them by God. He spoke against the people who did not respect that authority. And yet, still required that God's Word be obeyed. As with the blind man with his matt.

This is also why He states Matt 5:17, about the law. The law is good and holy. It does what it is supposed to, every time. But those Jews who officiated it, were corrupt beyond all get out. They made a mockary of the law. And so Yeshua is upholding it as the standard by which 'they' will be judged. We who are in Messiah are not judged by it. As we have been forgiven and made clean by the blood of Messiah, who dwells within us. Keeping us till the day of our eternal promise.

David was not bound by Saul, was he? David was the annointed King, Saul was realizing his kingdom was being given to David. And wanted to kill him.

The same way, Yehsua is not bound by those who sat in Moses seat, was he? Yeshua was the annointed Judge/King/Ruler, the Jews were realizing their kingdom was being given to Yeshua. And killed Him for it. Like the parable He gave about the vineyard.

Other verses to consider are ISAIAH 53:8, JOHN 18:12 & JN.8:24 and ACTS 8:33, which teach that Messiah Yeshua did allow Himself to be ARRESTED and Led Away BOUND in Humiliation & Oppression for JUDGMENT - and more can be seen in MATTHEW 27:1-2, MARK 15:1, and LUKE 22:66-71 when it notes in the scriptures that our Savior & Lord DID Submit Himself to Jewish Condemnation UNDER The LOM wherein THEY Convicted HIM of "blasphemy" for Being AND Telling THE Truth to those who were Sitting IN The JUDGMENT Seat of MOSES' Chair ...[/font]


Additionally, when looking very carefully at LUKE 22:53 in Comparison & Contrast with LK.22:69, one finds these Scriptures teach the corroborating BEFORE verses AFTER set of facts, below:


"While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me, but THIS is YOUR Hour & The POWER of Darkness is YOURS...BUT Henceforth & Hereafter THE Son of Man WILL Be SEATED IN POWER at The Right Hand of G-d."(LUKE 22:53 and LK.22:69 )
Thus, during His INCARNATION He did Submit himself even in bondage to their authoritative power - but never again did He do so since now Forever IN Eternity HE Is SEATED On THE Heavenly THRONE

That said, for other things to consider as it concerns the context/culture of the times Christ lived in (since he wasn't speaking of one person in specific for Moses' seat)....I had always taken Ex. 18 as a description of the seat of Moses
Ex. 18: 13-26/Exodus 18

13 The next day Moses sat to judge the people, and the people stood around Moses from morning till evening. 14 When Moses’ father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he said, “What is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you sit alone, and all the people stand around you from morning till evening?”

15 And Moses said to his father-in-law, “Because the people come to me to inquire of God;16 when they have a dispute, they come to me and I decide between one person and another, and I make them know the statutes of God and his laws.”

17 Moses’ father-in-law said to him, “What you are doing is not good.

18 You and the people with you will certainly wear yourselves out, for the thing is too heavy for you. You are not able to do it alone.

19 Now obey my voice; I will give you advice, and God be with you! You shall represent the people before God and bring their cases to God,

20 and you shall warn them about the statutes and the laws, and make them know the way in which they must walk and what they must do.

21 Moreover, look for able men from all the people, men who fear God, who are trustworthy and hate a bribe, and place such men over the people as chiefs of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens.

22 And let them judge the people at all times. Every great matter they shall bring to you, but any small matter they shall decide themselves. So it will be easier for you, and they will bear the burden with you.

23 If you do this, God will direct you, you will be able to endure, and all this people also will go to their place in peace.”

24 So Moses listened to the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said.

25 Moses chose able men out of all Israel and made them heads over the people, chiefs of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens.

26 And they judged the people at all times. Any hard case they brought to Moses, but any small matter they decided themselves
Due to Jethro's advice, the council was divided up to share Moses' power in authorization....and one can also go to Numbers 11:15-17 /Numbers 11:24-26 Numbers 16:1-3. Additionally, for other scriptures on the Council and Court themselves:


  • Exodus 22:8-9
  • Numbers 25:5
  • Deuteronomy 1:16, Deuteronomy 16:18, Deuteronomy 19:17-18, Deuteronomy 21:2 and Deuteronomy 25:1
  • Joshua 8:33, 23:2 and Joshua 24:1
  • 1st Samuel 8:1
  • 2nd Samuel 9:11
  • 2nd Chronicles 1:2 and 2nd Chronicles 19:5-6
  • MATTHEW 12:17/LUKE 19:11, Matthew 23:1-3 & Luke 22:66 through Luke 23:26 and John 5:45-47
I understood the Seat of Moses in a judicial way. Where the statutes and laws were reiterated to the people and where disputes were brought for final decision. Basically, as the Supreme Court of Israel. And what they ruled and decreed in this official capacity was to be obeyed.

Thus, while the Seat of Moses contained Pharisees, not all Pharisees were in the Seat of Moses. This is something which is (IMHO) a consistent view on the matter - for Yeshua directed His disciples to obey the Pharisees when they were speaking from their official position as the 'judicial' group, but when Seat of Moses' Pharisees were not speaking from their position in the judicial group, and Pharisees who were not members at all in the judicial system - then Jesus' warnings of 'beware the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees' *(Luke 12 and Mark 8/Matthew 16) applied

Viewing it similarly to the Supreme Court in the US, when as a group they make rulings - those are to be obeyed. If one of the Court's justices then went and taught a group at a law school, then he is not speaking in his 'official' capacity and his assertions and opinions do not have the weight of the jurisdictional system behind them (in the same way that not all traditions from a Sect in Judaism - be it those from the Talmud or another rabbi's interpretation - were binding on all when they gave a ruling

The Chair of Moses' Judgment Seat was a Council of 71 Elders... the Council of Elders was made up of Moses PLUS Seventy co-counsellors of Israel for a total of 71 Co-Chairmen/Joint-Judges who Sat COLLECTIVELY In the Seat of MOSES' Authority AND Shared HIS Legal OBLIGATION To hand down judicialapplications/Decisions/Interpretations/Opinions/Orders/Rulings AS Law UNDER The LOM

The fact that many individual Members of this GOVERNING GROUP became Corrupt & Hypocritical self-serving sinners NEITHER Abolished NOR Invalidated THEIR Official Position as the Beit Din HaGadol/House of Judgment/Supreme Court. What Yeshua warned the Jews against in MATTHEW 23:1-3 was disobeying anything that the scribes & the Pharisees who Sat on the GREAT Sanhedrin said to DO & OBSERVE - with Jesus himself commanding Jews under the LOM to do as they SAID, but NOT As They DID, since They Themselves did not even do AS THEY Said To DO ( the tried-and-true reality that's typical of Legislators who MAKE LAW while Breaking the Law).

The party of the Pharisees consisted of members by the thousands who comprised a Sect WITHIN Judasim, just as did the party of the Sadducees (and of course, camps who left Jerusalem due to corruption/believing they were more in line with Moses - such as the Essenes ) -- What each "branch or denomination" (so to speak) devised as "Must Do/Must NOT Do within Their OWN Sect" bore no power over The People as a whole nation. The expression "ex cathedra" literally means From the Chair as the Greek "synedrion" and the Hebrew "sanhedrin" both mean "sitting with" for the Purpose of Governance/Judgment/Rulership over those who were Bound under Law to obey.

However, the cautionary criticism from Yeshua of the scribes & the Pharisees also applied to those on the Chair of Moses' Judgment Seat/Great Sanhedrin/Beit Din HaGadol/Supreme Court as we can all read right there in Matthew 23:4-39 likewise - and likewise, elsewhere throughout the Gospels, it is evident that he was continually about challenging THEIR arguments during Religious "study, debate & learn" Sessions .....Having the right to ENFORCE Their LAW by the AUTHORITATIVE POWER of their OFFICIAL Position did NOT MEAN they Were Right when it came to EITHER Their Deeds OR Their Teachings


One immediate example that comes to mind - in regards to where Christ transformed the Torah application/showed what it really meant to live it:

John 5:16-47
14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” 15 The man went away and told the Jewish leaders that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.............

......39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[d]?45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
 
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Lulav

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The question is, did Yeshua actually want His disciples to do what those who sit on Moses Seat say, or did He want them to do as Moses said?

If Yeshua was the one that Moses wrote about he came to bring the people back to the Torah and teach them the true understanding of it. So those who were the Torah teachers and were teaching the Torah, were to be listened to, the Torah that is. But using them as an example as to how to live Torah was a different thing altogether. That is what Yeshua did and that is who we are to emulate.
 
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Lulav

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Are you suggesting to disregard the Jerusalem Council? They set Halacha for non Jews in Messiah via the Holy Spirit.
Why do you always have to resort to strawmen?

I don't see any new halacha being 'set' they were giving council on a new thing. The Gentiles did not have to follow the Rabbinic oral laws. What they said to teach them were for the newbies coming in. So they could have fellowship with the Jews.
And they were expected to go to synogogue every week and learn from the Torah of Moses.

This only meant they did not have to do the things the Pharisees taught, such as handwashing rituals etc. Yeshua's disciples apparently weren't Pharisees either because they didn't wash their hands and the Pharisees saw it and asked Yeshua why he didn't make them do it.

It was not Torah, therefore was not required. Same for the Gentiles.
 
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Why do you always have to resort to strawmen?

I don't see any new halacha being 'set' they were giving council on a new thing. The Gentiles did not have to follow the Rabbinic oral laws. What they said to teach them were for the newbies coming in. So they could have fellowship with the Jews.
And they were expected to go to synogogue every week and learn from the Torah of Moses.

This only meant they did not have to do the things the Pharisees taught, such as handwashing rituals etc. Yeshua's disciples apparently weren't Pharisees either because they didn't wash their hands and the Pharisees saw it and asked Yeshua why he didn't make them do it.

It was not Torah, therefore was not required. Same for the Gentiles.

Straw man? I can counter your post from a Jewish point of view.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Whilst we have primarily Greek manuscripts available to us, this does not preclude one or all of the gospels having been originally penned in another language, e.g. hebrew, syric.

Early church writers attest to the fact Matthew was written in Hebrew. Which leads on to another point.1 Modern scholars assert Matthew's work is based on Mark's, which begs the question, what language was penned in?


Steve


1. Gospel of Matthew
Great question....although I'd also ask how it can be verified outside of what they suggested that the Gospel of Matthew itself was written in Hebrew since many Early church writers also said a host of things which many would disagree with today when it comes to verifying tradition - and seeing how some views were based more so on hearsay of the day rather than solid fact. It's not to say that something is 100% not true - but what is being said is that how can one truly verify outside of seeing others attest to something being true? If others can attest to something being true today (Even when there is no evidence or videos/documentation), it'd be wild for others centuries into the future to look back.....see gaps in history....and then take those things said in our era that others proclaimed without verification to be true as if it was proven due to the assertion alone. We'd look at them noting "Some things are not so simple since you only got after-the-fact testimony "
 
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Lulav

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I request to the mod's that this type of discussion should stop because it's an offense to my brethren who might be lurking on this forum.

Marc, do you realize that you are separating yourself out of the body of believers here?

And do you not think that Gentiles that are part of this forum and others that might be lurking would not be offended at what you said here?

What I'm saying is in the Gospel's non Jews should put their fingers in their ears because they don't necessarily apply to non Jews, the applications. In the same way that I'm Jewish Galatians doesn't apply to me. But doesn't mean we shouldn't learn so we are able to teach etc.

So do you believe there is one gospel for the Jews and one gospel for the Gentiles?

I agree that many things that Yeshua taught were speaking to the culture and laws of the Jews, but is that not the family that Gentiles have been invited to become part of?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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At the time it was spoken it was directed to the Jewish community. Later at the Jerusalem Council it included Gentiles. The Gospel didn't go to the Gentiles until Cornelius which as at the very least 4-7 years after. The Jerusalem Council included halachtic decrees pertaining to Gentiles. Acts 15 wasn't directed to Jews.

What I'm saying is in the Gospel's non Jews should put their fingers in their ears because they don't necessarily apply to non Jews, the applications. In the same way that I'm Jewish Galatians doesn't apply to me. But doesn't mean we shouldn't learn so we are able to teach etc.

What I'm saying those that sit on Moses seat exchange doesn't apply to non Jews. Non Jews at the time it was spoken weren't under the authority of those that sat on Moses seat unless they became Jewish.
I think what should be remembered was that Acts 15 was a council pertaining to the issue of SALVATION - as opposed to being the only time Gentiles were addressed.

For there were already god-fearers within the Nation of Israel long before that time (the Roman Centurion in Matthew 8 and Luke 7:1-10 coming to mind) - and that was something present and that many were well aware of when it came to others who were Gentiles, within Israel, seeking to honor what they saw in the Torah and they were not turned away or told that nothing of Torah applied to them.

The Gospel of Luke was one which many have noted in the Early Church to be applied specifically with Gentiles in mind - and the other gospels were for all believers, Jew and Gentile, to listen to when it came to the examples of what Yeshua did with all in his life/ministry - from how he treated Samaritans to how he handled others in sin (Luke 15 ) to his deliverance of the Gentiles bound by the demonic (Mark 5) to the Greeks who came to hear him in John 12.

The Gospel had LONG gone to the Gentiles before the Council of Acts 15. For in Acts 2, you had others present who were NON-Jews there (Arabs being one prominent example)

Acts 2:1-12/Acts 2:4



The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

2 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”


And of course, the conversion of Cornelius WAS a milestone in the church’s history. .

Acts 10:34
Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Acts 10:33-35

It was here where we see the Gentile Church experiencing the Gentile Pentecost in Acts 10-11 (with the meeting of Cornelius and Peter years later). And yet Gentiles and Jews were still distinct in their experiences/practices.

Of course, the experience led to several having issue with Peter for his working with Cornelis - as seen when it notes that “The apostles and believers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. So that when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the uncircumcised believers criticized him and said, ‘You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them’” (11:1-3).


And as Acts noted, Peter appealed to God as the One who orchestrated the meeting with Cornelius. Thus, Peter concludes his defense by saying, “If God gave them [the Cornelius group] the same gift he gave us…who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?” (11:17). The important phrase here is “same gift.” The Gentiles experienced something similar in all essentials to that of the original Jewish disciples at Pentecost (2:1-5). That being so, they should have an equal membership in the body of Christ.

The church has been given a command to spread out and fill the earth as (Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). But like all people, the apostles struggled with the temptation to settle in one place and build—-and some of this may’ve been due to their desire to not go through so much transition since they already had to deal with being a new movement and seeing their Lord ascend into Heaven. The Church in Antioch was radically different from others seeing how they sent their very best (Paul and Barnabas) out into uncharted territory rather than keep things within the camp—and whereas the Jerusalem Church looked out for its own, it didn’t do so for others abroad….and had to LITERALLY be forced through persecution to spread out.

To see how the Gentile Churches had to literally keep sending support to the Jerusalem Church (Romans 15:25-28, I Corinthians 16:1-23) is amazing, especially seeing how the Mother Church of Jerusalem was responsible for so much—-and yet, the Jews there mainly kept to their own…even avoiding those who were Samaritans (Half Breed Jews) until forced out in Acts 8:. That’s odd to see the church do that since Jesus Himself had a heart for Samaria ( John 4:4-6, Luke 9:50-56, Luke 17:10-19, )—-and he told them SPECIFICALLY that the power of the Spirit was to go to Samaria and all the ends of the earth (Acts 1:7-9 ).

Philip the deacon went into Samaria and preached as noted in Acts 8 - although it was the case that he was by himself for a good minute.

Outisde of that, we also have how Acts 11:19-30 shows the Church expanding into Syria. In Acts 11:20, Luke began his story of the Gentile mission by recounting the proclamation of the gospel by Hellenistic Jews in Syrian Antioch - a city that will become the staging area and springboard for missionary activity to other parts of the Roman Empire and that will also serve as kind of second headquarters area for the growing church. Antioch, the largest city of Syria, is on the Orontes River, about 300 miles north of Jerusalem and 20 miles inland from the Mediterranean.

Luke portrays Antioch as the church where the mission to the Gentiles in general begins (11:19-26). Antioch will soon become a mission-sponsoring church, sending Paul and Barnabas on tours of evangelism (13:1-3). Paul will use Antioch as his home base of operations...and it was in Antioch that Luke notes how Jewish evangelists for the Gospel (from Cyprus and Cyrene ) came to Antioch and they began to speak “to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus” (11:20).


As it concerns Moses Seat and its relevance to the Gentiles, yes there are observances that are solely to the Jews ...but even the Torah doesn't forbid a non Jew from observance and it notes specific things given to the Gentiles... and that's something that other Messianic Jewish groups have long noted when it comes to saying that such is not condemned in the movement.

As there were other Gentiles in the times Christ lived in - including in Jerusalem and making pilgrimage to the place to serve the Lord - it wasn't a small thing for them to be present when hearing what Christ said about Moses.

Where many are coming from is that something that was not meant to ever be a focus - claiming ALL Gentiles must observe in the same ways as the Jewish people - doesn't equate to it being wrong for Gentiles to wish observance in the same ways as the Jewish people.

And for those sojourners/foreigners who wished to basically convert (i.e. Gentile believers in the land who'd be counted as Hebrews - seperate from those Gentiles in the land who were believers but not the same as Israel), the Lord made a place for them:
Isaiah 56:5-7/ Isaiah 56
For this is what the Lord says:
“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant— 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord
to serve him, to love the name of the Lord,
and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations

Nonetheless, within God's overall scheme/view, it did seem he valued distinctions and never held to a mindset that all Gentiles not observing at all points like the Jewish people were either condemned or "inferior believers" in comparision. With what Yeshua often noted with "salvation to the Jew first, then the Gentile", this is something that must always be kept in mind - more shared on the issue here in #11
 
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Gxg (G²) said:
As it concerns Moses Seat and its relevance to the Gentiles, yes there are observances that are solely to the Jews ...but even the Torah doesn't forbid a non Jew from observance and it notes specific things given to the Gentiles... and that's something that other Messianic Jewish groups have long noted when it comes to saying that such is not condemned in the movement.

I don't know why there is such a problem with this?

James statement wasn't about Torah keeping for non Jews it was about salvation PERIOD! His statement about Moses being read is past and the fulfillment James noted Amos. The message of Moses being read was the beginning of the dawning of the age!!
 
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visionary

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...but even the Torah doesn't forbid a non Jew from observance and it notes specific things given to the Gentiles...
But orthodox Jew do... eg.. Shabbat isn't for a gentile to observe.. While there are some mitzvot that are obligatory on all people (e.g. the seven laws of Noach), the observance of Shabbat is not one of them. It therefore seems entirely natural that if one needs a forbidden creative labor done on Shabbat, one could simply call on a non-Jew to do it for them.

Yet right in the Law of God it is written....
8 “Remember the day, Shabbat, to set it apart for God. 9 You have six days to labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Shabbat for Adonai your God. On it, you are not to do any kind of work — not you, your son or your daughter, not your male or female slave, not your livestock, and not the foreigner staying with you inside the gates to your property. 11 For in six days, Adonai made heaven and earth, the sea and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. This is why Adonai blessed the day, Shabbat, and separated it for himself.
This is where tradition contradicts the very law itself.
 
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Lulav

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Ok, I can't read all that but succinctly G, are you saying that there were gentiles present at Shavuot in Jerusalem immediately following the last Passover of Yeshua's?

The Gospel had LONG gone to the Gentiles before the Council of Acts 15. For in Acts 2, you had others present who were NON-Jews there (Arabs being one prominent example)
Because then you say this:

And of course, the conversion of Cornelius WAS a milestone in the church’s history. .It was here where we see the Gentile Church experiencing the Gentile Pentecost in Acts 10-11 (with the meeting of Cornelius and Peter years later).

Because when read without all the extraneous, you can see you are clearly contradicting yourself here, and you even underlined this from acts 10

The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.

If there were gentiles at the first Shavuot (Pentecost) then why would those with Peter years later be astonished if it had already happened?

See what I mean? It can't be both.


There were pious Jews from every nation under heaven living in Jerusalem. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd gathered. They were mystified because everyone heard them speaking in their native languages. 7 They were surprised and amazed, saying, "Look, aren't all the people who are speaking Galileans, every one of them? 8 How then can each of us hear them speaking in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; as well as residents of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the regions of Libya bordering Cyrene; and visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism), 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the mighty works of God in our own languages!"

All those countries mentioned they were speaking of Jews or converts, they were Greek Jews, Roman Jews, Arab Jews, Judean Jews, etc, but they were all Jews. There was a huge crowd of Jews gathered there for the holy day of Shavuot.
 
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Lulav

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I don't know why there is such a problem with this?

James statement wasn't about Torah keeping for non Jews it was about salvation PERIOD! His statement about Moses being read is past and the fulfillment James noted Amos. The message of Moses being read was the beginning of the dawning of the age!!

Can you please explain what you mean by that, I am having trouble following you.
 
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visionary

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Has it not been told to you, that gentiles can not keep the shabbat. That even in their efforts to keep it they must break the shabbat, because it was never given to them in the first place to keep. That is all traditional understanding.
Isaiah 56:6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to ADONAI to serve him, to love the Name of ADONAI, and to be his workers, all who keep Shabbat and do not profane it, and hold fast to my covenant, 7 I will bring them to my holy mountain and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all peoples."
 
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