Strange phenomenon - bibliolatry and depression

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salamacum

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I have been thinking about a retired man. Irish, reads his bible, knows it better than me, better than most.
Has pretty traditionally biblical views on most things..
Yet he has suffered depression all his life.
When pressed about 'joining in' more with social activities, he graciously says that he 'just needs to read his bible more'
I'm an evangelical and there is something wrong here that I can't put my finger on.
Can you help me?
 

Pteriax

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The prophet Elijah was depressed too, suicidal if I recall correctly. I get depressed myself at the state of the world once in a while. I have my joy in the Lord Jesus Christ, and the work He has done, but I have my moments. I suggest simply praying for God to bring the man more joy.
 
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miamited

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I have been thinking about a retired man. Irish, reads his bible, knows it better than me, better than most.
Has pretty traditionally biblical views on most things..
Yet he has suffered depression all his life.
When pressed about 'joining in' more with social activities, he graciously says that he 'just needs to read his bible more'
I'm an evangelical and there is something wrong here that I can't put my finger on.
Can you help me?

Hi salmacum,

Do you have more evidence of his depression than just that he doesn't get involved in social activities. I'll be honest with you, I'm anxious about social activities a lot also, but it's got nothing to do with being depressed.

I went with my wife to a family get together a couple of weeks ago and there was some drinking and smoking and generally course language and while I did enjoy myself, I wouldn't likely have sidled up to any of them and said, "Hey, let's be friends." Many social invitations are like that. Drinking, revelry and the such and it really isn't my cup of tea any longer. However, I believe I'm far from being depressed. I enjoy life, my family, working on the yard and planting and caring for flowers and such.

So, I'm just curious if there is any other evidence that you see that would lead to your believing the man is depressed. There are people who are introverted and, for lack of a better word, keep to themselves pretty much because they don't really enjoy having to make conversation with people they don't know. They don't assimilate well and have a hard time just letting their hair down and enjoying much of the things that others enjoy doing.

While I am one of those, for the most part, I'm not depressed. I rejoice every day in all that God has blessed me with and quite honestly I enjoy spending time with my Father more than others. A man I volunteer with gets together with a half dozen guys a couple of times a week and plays poker. I've been invited, but playing poker doesn't appeal to me.

My suggestion is to start with making yourself available to him as a friend. Take him to lunch and just sit and talk with him about life. Seek out some of his wisdom about God and share some of yours. Then do it again and again. After a few of these one on one outings you might try introducing him to another friend or two, but I would try to stay away from large group gatherings until he gets fairly well acquainted with you and maybe one other. And if you do take him to a social gathering of some kind, then make sure that you make a conscious effort to stay with or near him. For someone like that who goes to a large social gathering with someone and that one goes off to be with other friends, he quickly begins to feel like a third leg wallflower and then resents having come and you're back to where you started.

Yes, unfortunately, if you really want to draw this man out of his shell, then you'll probably have to really commit to doing some serious work to accomplish that. Be a good friend and as that friendship grows, if it does, then you can slowly begin to introduce him to new adventures.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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salamacum

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Hello Ted, don't want to be offensive here, especially if you don't recognise bibliolatry.
Yes, I know this man quite well...

He thinks that in reading the bible, digesting it, understanding it, he will be healed of his depression.
I know he's got this pre-disposition - I am not saying his bible-reading is excessive or is the main cause of the depression.
It may be that his understanding of the deeper, higher and wider purposes of God are much better than mine.
But it hasn't alleviated his depression.
And I think his theology of healing is mostly the cause of his continuing depression. "I just need to read/understand the scriptures more to be joyful"
I'm almost at the belief that spiritual sickness needs spiritual healing, emotional healing needs human love, support and acceptance, physical healing needs a doctor. You know - horses for courses, cause and effect.

He is a total contrast with his wife, who was very sociable, outgoing (and very orthodox as well). But now she's died he does seem to be becoming a bit of a recluse.
 
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WOOD81

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he may be depressed because he is reading the bible so much. i know that when i read the bible, i get extremely convicted. sometimes i can get depressed because i realize how sinful we all are and how offensive that is to god.

same thing happend to martin luther. he would spend several hours a day in confession.

i love jesus and without his grace we are all bratwurst on the bbq. if you dont remind yourself of gods love and grace then i can see where one could get depressed. after all the bible speaks of gods wrath way more than his love.
 
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miamited

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Hello Ted, don't want to be offensive here, especially if you don't recognise bibliolatry.
Yes, I know this man quite well...

He thinks that in reading the bible, digesting it, understanding it, he will be healed of his depression.
I know he's got this pre-disposition - I am not saying his bible-reading is excessive or is the main cause of the depression.
It may be that his understanding of the deeper, higher and wider purposes of God are much better than mine.
But it hasn't alleviated his depression.
And I think his theology of healing is mostly the cause of his continuing depression. "I just need to read/understand the scriptures more to be joyful"
I'm almost at the belief that spiritual sickness needs spiritual healing, emotional healing needs human love, support and acceptance, physical healing needs a doctor. You know - horses for courses, cause and effect.

He is a total contrast with his wife, who was very sociable, outgoing (and very orthodox as well). But now she's died he does seem to be becoming a bit of a recluse.

Hi salamacum,

Oh, I do recognize bibliolatry, I was just making sure I understood why you were using that word here. You said the man likes to read the Scriptures or that he felt he needed to read them more. I don't think any born again believer would ever think that they read the Scriptures too, much.

For me, bibliolatry is when someone has a special place adorned with gold and silver or fine woods polished to a gleaming shine on which they keep their copy of the Scriptures. It is when someone bows down to a book that contains a translation of the Scriptures as if the book itself were the God that could save them. People who might say, "Oh, I could never set my bible down on the floor", might be thought of as bibliolaters. I just never understood that as properly being defined as just someone who reads the Scriptures a lot.

Yes, if you know this man and he himself describes himself as depressed, then I would be inclined to ask the questions that might uncover what is causing him to be so. The Scriptures say that we should be joyful in all things. I know for myself, while I may be depressed for some short period about something that has happened in my life, I believe that lifelong depression is a sign of not having that joy, and by extension if one doesn't have that joy, then are they really practicing and believing what the Scriptures say.

I mean, anyone with a third grade education can read, but God doesn't want us to just read the Scriptures - He wants us to understand and believe them. I can read all of the Harry Potter series and know everything that there is to know about Harry Potter, but I don't believe for a minute that the events and accounts found within those writings are true.

So, this is why I asked more probing questions regarding your diagnosis of your acquaintances depression. Yes, there can be some good reasons for a temporary period of a depressive attitude. He lost his wife. Perhaps she was the one on whom he had set his hopes and now she's gone. Left him to live alone with no real companionship and that causes him to be depressed. If you find that to be the case, and you will really only know if you take the time to sit with him and get to know him and ask him point blank, "Bill, why are you depressed? What kinds of thoughts are running through your head that would make you feel depressed about your lot in life?", then I would encourage you, if you really love him, to take the time to follow my encouragement before.

Just stop by one day or call him up and say, "Bill, why don't you come and go to lunch with me over at McDonald's? I'm buying." To be honest, and maybe you have portrayed this situation wrongly, but you seem to think that just being around other people fixes depression. It doesn't usually. Usually depressives are caught in a thought pattern that is depressive. They think thoughts of how bad their life turned out and how there just isn't any hope for them. Being with other people just means that they put on a smile and laugh with others while they think these thoughts. Depression is usually a matter of what kinds of things we tend to think about more than what kinds of things we do.

Just like those who suffer anxiety disorders will get in an elevator and all their thoughts are just focused on what it's going to feel like when the elevator plummets to the basement. The rest of us get on elevators and take for granted that it's going to get us where we want to go and enjoy the ride.

Most depressives don't really need a crowd, but rather just one real friend. And I'll repeat that just because he seems to know the Scriptures and can recite them backwards doesn't mean he's born again. Nicodemus could do that.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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salamacum

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Yes, thanks for that.
I'll ponder.
I do think he has a constitutional thing though. Always been insecure.. sometimes those are the men particularly who feel the need to acknowledge God. The rest of us have stiff necks and pride.
Speculation - maybe that's why married his wife - confident, affirming - their children are positive, achievers (and Christian). But I know the daughter has said she wished he would come out more rather than 'just read the scriptures'
I think bibliolatry is more than you describe.
There may be a wrong expectation of the scriptures.
The scriptures point to and explain our hope and joy, but it is Jesus in whom we find it. It is possible not to press on beyond what you read. (The whole application thing - it also happens that we think of holiness, sanctification, the application, as avoiding sin or demonstrating petty righeousnesses, which IMO can lead to legalisms and deadness)
Quick thoughts before I go to work....
 
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miamited

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Hi again salmacum,

Thanks for your response. That's why I went ahead and gave my understanding of bibliolotry. I do understand that individuals often read words and may have different understandings of what they actually mean.

The question to be answered here is whether much reading of the Scriptures builds one's confidence and expectation of the Scriptures or of the God that they portray. You said the man is a Christian, so I am going on that designation. But I'm fully aware that our just calling ourselves a Christian doesn't make it so, in Jesus' eyes. I think that Jesus made it quite clear that we will know who are our brothers and sisters are, not by their self description of themselves, but by the love of God that they show to others.

Jesus told his disciples of the day of judgment and said to them that on that day there would be many clamoring before him saying to him that surely he must know them because they did things in his name. I think this clearly teaches that these people, when living on the earth, called themselves Christians. After all, who else does things in Jesus' name, but Christians? But then Jesus turns to these people and says that he never knew them. I think we also need to be discerning in our acceptance of whether someone really is a born again believer Christian versus a just knows about Jesus Christian.

As to your retired friend, yes, if he suffers from long standing depression, my danger meter goes off. I'm asking myself, "How is it that he claims to be a Christian but never seems to be filled with the joy that should be evident in those who are the children of God?" Again, I will repeat, just knowing the Scriptures will not be the deciding factor in one receiving God's salvation. Nicodemus could probably recite them backwards, but Jesus is clear that he didn't have a clue about being born again.

The Jews as a people group knew all about God, they were entrusted with His very words, but still, they didn't get it. They read, but without understanding or application. So, yes, and perhaps I try to be a bit more discerning than others in not just taking peoples words at face value, I don't put a lot of stock in someone just saying that they are a Christian. I look for the evidence that supports the claim.

You are correct that many who read the Scriptures without the understanding of the Holy Spirit become legalists and they can cause great damage to the cause of Christ.

God bless you.
 
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The prophet Elijah was depressed too, suicidal if I recall correctly. I get depressed myself at the state of the world once in a while. I have my joy in the Lord Jesus Christ, and the work He has done, but I have my moments. I suggest simply praying for God to bring the man more joy.
Many Christians fall into depression whether or not they throw themselves into studying God's word or not. Depression can be both/either mental and/or physical, temporary or lifelong. I have a problem with "Christians" who are so calloused that they cannot empathize with someone suffering from depression. Praying for the man is a very good idea. Maybe if we all prayed more there would be less depression in the world. Just a thought.
 
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Jack Koons

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"For me, bibliolatry is when someone has a special place adorned with gold and silver or fine woods polished to a gleaming shine on which they keep their copy of the Scriptures. It is when someone bows down to a book that contains a translation of the Scriptures as if the book itself were the God that could save them. People who might say, "Oh, I could never set my bible down on the floor", might be thought of as bibliolaters. I just never understood that as properly being defined as just someone who reads the Scriptures a lot."

The part of this that gets my attention was this sentence:

"It is when someone bows down to a book that contains a translation of the Scriptures as if the book itself were the God that could save them."

I can see why he is depressed. (At least I think I can, to a point.) Here is a man that I think is going to his Bible to find comfort in an age when many of the religious leaders are telling us that the "Bible" he has been trusting in as the inerrant Word of God, is no longer inerrant! I can see how it becomes overwhelming to hear this continuing bombardment of propaganda concerning what he believes is the Word of God, while simultaneously looking around at the condition of deteriorating Christianity in this country. Some of us Fundamentalists are actually wandering how far away from God Christianity needs to go before God chastises us in a way that someone in the mainstream will figure out that that, was the hand of Almighty God?

Jack
 
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salamacum

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A linked phenomenon. It depends on what is meant by "well-taught". We have a lady who has devoured the scriptures for years. But it seems to me that it is all very individualistic.
In church for example it is clear that she has a biblical 'story' other than what is usually preached from the pulpit. This biblical story is that of God's dealings with 'Israel' and she does not mean the church by this. She has never prayed for 'the church', nor even for 'our church' in its ministry or outreach. God, she obviously believes has given up on 'the church' - it is full of tares and the birds have nested in its bloated and corrupt branches.
She is the only believer in her family and her bibliolatry has distracted them. She certainly believes a lot of things that can be given with a proof-text. But they have never been touched by the preaching of the church she attends. We all wonder where she has got her Jewishness from. Well, its through years of uncritical reading of the scriptures, where nothing has a context, where all passages have equal weight. And there's much more about God's love for the Jews than there is about His love for gentiles. Is this not an example of 'bibliolatry'? Something totally un-contextualised, without learning and wider study? Or should we just be fearful of the latter?
 
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salamacum

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Hello Ted,
Thanks very much for the concern. My Jewish believer I haven't seen for some time, or at least not to talk to.
An interesting thing though - as a result of her OT readings she expects in her own family life the same suffering and persecution of the Jewish people.
And then it ends up as fulfillment, because her family react to her religiousity, as alien - where did it come from?
 
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Gospel Guy

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I can read all of the Harry Potter series and know everything that there is to know about Harry Potter, but I don't believe for a minute that the events and accounts found within those writings are true.

Actually, witchcraft and black magic are true as devils can and do satanic works here on earth producing signs and wonders...

If I were you, I'd repent and ask God to forgive you for sowing thoughts of witchcraft and black magic into your soul by reading scary potter books and watching those movies that satan enjoys so much and considers to be some of his best work... laughing that Christians watch his propaganda, and his ganda ain't propa!

God does not appreciate his people taking pleasure in evil... God is not mocked, whatsoever we sow IS what we are going to reap so putting this stuff in one's soul is not a good thing to do at all.
 
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General Mung Beans

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Actually, witchcraft and black magic are true as devils can and do satanic works here on earth producing signs and wonders...

If I were you, I'd repent and ask God to forgive you for sowing thoughts of witchcraft and black magic into your soul by reading scary potter books and watching those movies that satan enjoys so much and considers to be some of his best work... laughing that Christians watch his propaganda, and his ganda ain't propa!

God does not appreciate his people taking pleasure in evil... God is not mocked, whatsoever we sow IS what we are going to reap so putting this stuff in one's soul is not a good thing to do at all.

lol
 
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salamacum

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The trouble is there are so many things 'out there' that are displeasing to God.
Yes, Harry Potter - avoid it. Yes, charismatic self-delusion - avoid it. Yes, biblical liberals - avoid them. Yes, insufficient biblical preaching - correct this. Yes, Lord of the Rings - glorifying dark forces and no mention of Jesus - avoid it. Yes, alien foreign religions in our midst - avoid. Yes, eclecticism - avoid.

Wrong views of Israel, dispensationalism, inerrancy, incarnation, cessationism, ministry, the church, the great commission. Correct and avoid.

No time, energy or theology left for ... fighting injustice, sadness, loneliness, fear, lack of care, ignorance of man as partaker in shalom/community and his wider needs.

Or maybe, as my first minister/pastor said - they just need to read the bible.
 
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bushinoki

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Soon as I saw Harry Potter mentioned, I knew LotR was coming into it. I'm getting a good laugh. Apparently it has been long forgotten that C. S. Lewis converted to Christianity after some in-depth talks with his good friend, none other than J. R. R. Tolkien. Poor Tolkien, all he wanted to do was write a good story with an English flair to it, and he gets compared to Anton LaVey.
 
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Hello Ted, don't want to be offensive here, especially if you don't recognise bibliolatry.
Yes, I know this man quite well...

He thinks that in reading the bible, digesting it, understanding it, he will be healed of his depression.
I know he's got this pre-disposition - I am not saying his bible-reading is excessive or is the main cause of the depression.
It may be that his understanding of the deeper, higher and wider purposes of God are much better than mine.
But it hasn't alleviated his depression.
And I think his theology of healing is mostly the cause of his continuing depression. "I just need to read/understand the scriptures more to be joyful"
I'm almost at the belief that spiritual sickness needs spiritual healing, emotional healing needs human love, support and acceptance, physical healing needs a doctor. You know - horses for courses, cause and effect.

He is a total contrast with his wife, who was very sociable, outgoing (and very orthodox as well). But now she's died he does seem to be becoming a bit of a recluse.[/quote]It ran's on the just and the unjust. I'm not saying the reading the Bible can not be depression. But one has to build their relationship with Christ as they go. I have been in a depression for 30 days that is how long I have been on my death bed. I want to go home and be with the Lord but when I see the people around me, when I see the pain in there eyes not knowing if I will be alive in the morning it hut me so I try to go on for them them.
 
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