Proof For Pre-trib Rapture/ Part 2

Jeremiah 30:7 - 'Jacob trouble' already fulfilled during captivity under Babylon. You have to read whole chapter 29 and 30 of Jeremiah are talking baout captivity under Babylon.

'Jacob trouble' is talking about Babylon invaded Israel and Jerusaelm about 593 B.C. Many Jews were killed, captured them, thousands were taken as captivity to Babylon. The Solomon temple was destroyed. That what 'Jacob trouble' is talking about.

Then they shall be saved out of it - mean, they will be freed from the capitcvity under Babylon - already fulfilled 70 years later.

Jer. 30:7 have do nothing with future seven year of Tribulation period. It is talking about history of Israel in the Old Testament, that they were taken captivity under Baylon. Please look in Jer. 29:28.

I urge you to read whole chapter 29 and 30 of Jeremiah.

Pretribbers alway pick one verse out of the context. They break the hermenuetic rule of interpreting the Bible, what it is talking about.

Early Church already face terrible persecutions. Many Christians were killed by eaten from wild beasts at Colosseum in Rome. Many Christians were killed by Catholic during Spanish Inquistion time. Are we better than them?

Matt 24:21 warns us, Great Tribulation will be much worse than all tribulations of the history.

Great tribulation is terrible persecutions, many Christians will be killed under the Antcihrist for onlyb 3 1/2 years, NOT 7 years.

Yes, we are face tribulations because John 16:33; Acts 14:22; 1 Thess 3:3-4; and 2 Thess 1:4-7 say so.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...Why do you think you will still have to go through the tribulation when these don't?...

Click to expand...

I believe the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in the war, famine, persecution, and cataclysm of the seals which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).

I believe they show that people can "obtain salvation" and enter into the great tribulation without being "appointed to the wrath" of 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...the tribulation period that will last 7 years.  This is Jacob's trouble...

Click to expand...

Does the Bible say that the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7-8) will be the entire tribulation?

If we equate the time of Jacob's trouble with the entire tribulation and with God's punishment, then are the great multitude of us Christians in the tribulation "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Revelation 7:9, 14) all Jacob?

Note the similarity between Jeremiah 30:7's "time of Jacob's trouble" and Daniel 12:1's "time of trouble," and between Jeremiah 30:7's "so that none is like it" and Daniel 12:1's "such as never was," and between Jeremiah 30:7's "he shall be saved out of it" and Daniel 12:1's "at that time thy people shall be delivered."

Daniel 12:1 (and so Jeremiah 30:7) will occur after all of the events of Daniel 11, and will be right before Israel's resurrection (at the 2nd coming) in Daniel 12:2, just as Jeremiah 30:7 will be right before Israel's deliverance (at the 2nd coming) in Jeremiah 30:8.

So Jeremiah 30:7's use of "great" and "day" doesn't require it refer to the entire tribulation: it is at the very end of it.

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...it would make no sense at all if He also punished christians...

Click to expand...

Does Revelation say the seals and trumpets of the tribulation are "punishments"? Could God's judgment not be come until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), none of which are directed at us Christians?

Could we Christians go through the war, famine, plague, persecution, natural disaster, and death of the tribulation just as we Christians have always suffered, and not because God was bringing punishment against us?

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...these will escape and go to the wedding supper of the Lamb...

Click to expand...

Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming.

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

Note that the supper on the earth in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with the same rapture and resurrection in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory" (Isaiah 25:8); "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54).

In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb shown to be at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)?

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
...I ain't gonna be there...

Click to expand...

Does any scripture promise us a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)? Don't we Christians have to go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13)?

Have you guys ever heard of the "pre-wrath" rapture?  Please read this entire post before responding to it (rather than breaking it into peices which will blunt the force of the argument).

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=624844

It solves the problems of denying pre-"tribulation" rapture because the rapture still occurs before the "wrath"... which is the wrath of God.  And yet Christians still go through the persecution of Satan (often translated "tribulation") through the Anti-Christ, as described in detail in Revelation 13.  It truly makes sense of the entire end times chronology.

In the mean time, I'll do a "quick and dirty" refutation of the pre-trib rapture using 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5.

First remember that chapter and verse distinctions were added about 100 years ago.

Now, the NIV puts a subject title of "The coming of the Lord" at 1 Thess. 4:13 and rightly so.  It includes everything from verse 4:13 until verse 5:11.

The rapture is unquestionably described in 1 Thess 4:13-18.

Notice that the first verse of chapter 5 says "Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

Now, wouldn't the Thessalonians want to know when the rapture will occur?  Of course they would!  So Paul tells them immediately about times and dates, anticipating the question.  He says "Day of the Lord" will come like a thief in the night, then (verse 5:4) "But you, brothers are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."  As Paul goes on about the ones who will be surprised by the day of the Lord and the ones who won't be surprised, he finishes up by saying that (verse 5:9) "God did not appoint us to suffer wrath".  This is quite true, but it is God's wrath that Paul is talking about.  Jesus never said anything about us escaping the persecution of the world, which hates Christians.  No, he instead said the very opposite that we would be persecuted relentlessly by the world!  But this isn't the clincher!  This just sets us up for the knock-out!

Now onto 2 Thessalonians!  Those Thessalonians seem to be having trouble getting Paul's teaching to stick.

In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul talks about the man of Lawlessness which is the Anti-Christ.  He introduces the topic by saying "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him."  Paul rightly ties the rapture and the second coming together.  He follows this immediately by saying that you should not become unsettled thinking that the Day of the Lord has already come!  The Thessalonians thought they had missed the rapture which occurs at the onset of the day of the Lord!  But no, Paul tells them that the Day of the Lord (and thus the rapture with it) cannot occur until "the man of Lawlessness" is revealed and he exalts himself over everything that is called God in the very temple of God in Jeruselum!  This is the abomination of desolation that Jesus mentions in Mathew 24!  This is the Anti-Christ!  And the rapture is after it!

The rapture will occur after the anti-Christs persecution (or more accurately, during it, but the persecution will by definition be ended when the targets of Anti-Christ's persecution are raptured away).  The day of the Lord and the rapture will bring the onset of God's wrath.  Thus the rapture is pre-wrath.  It occurs after the tribulation as post-tribs believe, but before the wrath of God as pre-tribs believe.  It is not mid "tribulation" (7 year) though.  It is at an unspecific day and hour at some point in the middle (probably closer to the end) of the 7 year period.  Thus the signs of the times can be read, but the day and hour are not known just as Jesus said.

Questions?

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
This is awesome to say the least!!  Folks, would you believe that Noah's ark was a copy of the Bridal chambers??    And if this is so, then the story of Noah would have to be a picture of the rapture of the bride.  Be careful to notice the parts below that I have typed in bold print.  Let me take you on a journey that the Holy Spirit took me on, of course, it was a little harder for me, because I had to do my own research.  But once again, I am glad to share it with you.

Click to expand...

Jesus himself compared his coming to the story of Noah in Mathew 24:36-41, but pretribulationists (maybe not you, but most of them) say that the "one" who is "taken" is the evil-doer and the ones who are left is Israel.  They say this because this coming of Jesus clearly describes the end of the world and they want to put the rapture before the tribulation, so to a pretrib, this can't be the rapture!  Yet you yourself just agreed that it is!  And I agree with you!  The Greek word used here for "taken" is Strong's number 3880.  It means "I take along" and is used in many instances of taking some thing or someone with you.  It is also used for "receiving" by Paul but NEVER "taking" as in "taking someone's life" or "taking the wicked away".

You are right that the story of Noah parallels the rapture.  Noah was literally raptured out of harms way in the ark on the very same day that the destructive flood came.  In the same way (just as Jesus says in Mathew 24) it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.  Jesus is going to rapture the church, then immediately God's wrath upon the world will begin.  This places the rapture immediately before the wrath of God. 

The important thing is not to confuse the wrath of God with the wrath of Satan.  Satan's wrath will be inflicted through the Anti-Christ upon the church.  The church is going to have to endure this wrath (which is not from God). 

One other important thing is to understand that the word used for the second "coming" of Christ does not refer to a singular event.  The word that is translated "coming" in dealing with the second coming is the Greek parousia which is Strong's number 3952 literally means presence.  Christ's presence will be upon the earth from the moment of the rapture forward.  His presence will be there throughout the wrath of God.  Most pre-tribs think, because of the misunderstanding of the word parousia, that Christ will come once and pick up the Christians (the rapture) and then come again and destroy everything).  In fact, he comes at the onset of God's wrath, raptures the Christians and then remains there and sees the work done (God's wrath, Armageddon, the 1000 year reign then the judgment).

Revelation 3:10 is often used to buttress pre-trib rapture theology, but it actually argues against it when translated properly from the Greek!

Revelation 3:10 usually reads "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I wall also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth."

"will keep" is Strong's number 5083 and means "I keep" or "I gaurd".  The idea is of protecting something.

"from" is Strong's number 1537 and is one of a few different words that we translate into from.  This particular one really means "from out". 

Together, these words don't mean that Christians will be taken away and kept from the "hour of trial" (literally hour of pressure), it means that they will be protected during it, and taken out from it!  The rapture will occur during the tribulation, and those Saints who truly trust God will be "kept".  The keeping is keeping in faith, not keeping from persecution.  We must wade through persecution and testify to Jesus who will strengthen us. 

If you think that this understanding is dubious, just review the rest of the things I've presented.  The pre-tribulation rapture just doesn't work.  The rapture is pre-wrath and will cause the end of the persecution/tribulation because persecution can't very well happen if there is nothing to persecute! (which is exactly what will happen when the church is raptured).

And in support of this understanding, observe the following verse:

"[Describes a great host in heaven from all the nations which must be the raptured church because it is from all the nations]  Then one of the elders asked me, 'These in white robes -- who are they, and where did they come from?' ...  'These are they who have come out of the great tribulation [persecution]'" Revelation 7:9-17

Notice that the raptured church comes out of the tribulation [persecution].  They do not miss it.

To preempt those who want to say that these are the new converts who come after the rapture, I have one question.  Why are there so many, and why do they have bodies?  Notice how different they are from the souls of the martyrs in Revelation which are under the alter?  These people in Rev 6:9-17 stand before the throne and they wear white robes (Rev 6:11). 

Notice that if this group JUST consisted of the martyrs described in Rev 6:11, then why didn't the elder say so?  Instead he said that they came out of the great tribulation (which is true of the raptured saints and the dead who rise first).

Also, note that the group of saints under the alter consists of ALL saints who were martyred, not just the ones martyred by the Anti-Christ (of course, if you're pre-trib, you don't believe the Anti-Christ's persecution has happened yet).

So, if you're pre-trib and have no signs of changing, who is this great multitude from every nation and why are they out from under the alter at this point with bodies (they are clothed, standing and hold palm branches in their hands) as opposed to the "souls" under the alter in Rev 6:9-11.

Even if you don't believe this position right now, keep it in mind at the very least, because it will aid you in understanding things when/if the rapture does not occur before the "tribulation" (which means persecution not "wrath" as in God's wrath ).

From the End Time's chronology that I posted, these are the primary scriptures which I believe all refer to the rapture:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 5:1-9(the rapture of the church will occur before the "wrath")
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (the rapture cannot occur until...[see placement of 2 Thessalonian scriptures above]).
Mathew 24:30-31, 36-41 (the rapture of the church precedes God's wrath)
Revelation 14:13-16 (the rapture of the church)
Revelation 7:9-17 (appearance of raptured saints in Heaven)

I will now compare the 5 and show that they do not describe separate gatherings (pre-tribs believe that some of these describe Israel's gathering and that they are thus different).

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  After that we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And so we will be with the Lord forever." 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

"Concerning the coming [presence] of our Lord and our being gathered to him, we ask you brothers..." 2 Thessalonians 2:1

"And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Mathew 24:31

"...one will be taken and the other left..." Mathew 40

"I looked and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one 'like a son of man' with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.  Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, 'Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.'  So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested." Revelation 14:13-16

"[Describes a great host in heaven from all the nations which must be the raptured church because it is from all the nations.]  These are they who have come out of the great tribulation [persecution]" Revelation 7:9-17

Now the Harmony:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  After that we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  And so we will be with the Lord forever.

So, we have Jesus in the sky, we have a trumpet call, and we have angels gathering Christians from all over.  The verses in 1 Thessolonians simply says that "we will be caught up" it does not say in what way.  It could be purely supernatural, but there's no reason why it couldn't be the angels mentioned in Mathew. 

The account in Revelation 14 doesn't change anything since it is in Revelation and sounds very symbolic rather than literal.  Jesus is on a cloud, and an angel tells him that it's time to harvest and he simply swings his sickle to harvest the earth.  This can easily be understood as symbolic and does not contradict the other rapture passages.

Revelation 7 merely clarifies that that particular host in heaven comes out of the tribulation (rather than missing it altogether).

Some might say that those are the Christians who die in the tribulation, but that ignores my End Time's chronology.  If that verse existed in a vacuum, then perhaps.  Notice that they are standing before God here with bodies (unlike during the 5th seal when they are souls under a throne).  Why do they have bodies now if they are not the multitude raptured out of the tribulation?

 

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER
postrib,
I see you are still holding on to your belief with all your might, but you are gambling my friend. You may not see it, but this is proof beyond a shadow of a doubt to me. You better hope you're not wrong, because you stand to lose an awful lot. Cheers!!

Click to expand...

Why do you think a Christian who doesn't have the right understanding of when the rapture will occur will miss the rapture?  This makes no sense at all.

Originally posted by postrib
Note again that just as God didn't have to rapture Noah into heaven to keep him from his wrath, so he won't have to rapture us into heaven to keep us from his wrath.

Click to expand...

Jesus compared his second coming to the destruction in Noah's day.  He meant that the wrath of God occured only after Noah was safely in the Ark.  At the second coming, we will be safely raptured the moment before the Wrath of God begins... but the wrath of God begins after the Anti-Christ persecutes the church.

Additionally, no man knows the day or hour of Christ's coming, yet post tribulationism puts it exactly 7 years after the treat with Israel so that we will know exactly when it is.  Mid tribulationism also puts it in an exact spot which is problematic.  Pre-trib preserves the no man knows the day nor hour thing, but it contradicts the scriptures in 2 Thessalonians.

Pre-wrath is the only way to go guys!  It answers everything!  I'm so happy that I got Van Kampen's book, prophecy actually makes sense now!

Originally posted by Rize
...Why do they have bodies now if they are not the multitude raptured out of the tribulation?...

Click to expand...

I believe the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in the war, famine, persecution, and cataclysm of the seals which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).

Note that when Samuel's spirit was brought up from sheol, he had some sort of ghostly body which was wearing a mantle (1 Samuel 28:14-20), and the souls of the martyrs in heaven are given robes to wear (Revelation 6:9-11), and the great multitude in heaven that come out of the great tribulation also wear robes and hold palm fronds in their hands (Revelation 7:9-14), even before the 1st resurrection (Revelation 20:4-5).

I believe spirits have bodily forms, but they are not corporeal:

"When the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear" (Matthew 14:26).

"Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit" (Luke 24:36-37).

"Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39).

Originally posted by Rize
...the wrath of God occured only after Noah was safely in the Ark...

Click to expand...

Note that just as God didn't have to rapture Noah (or Lot) into heaven to keep him from his wrath, so he won't have to rapture us into heaven to keep us from his wrath.

Noah was commanded to make extensive preparations on the earth in order to avoid God's wrath; he had to build a gigantic ark 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 4 1/2 stories high (Genesis 6:15), and he had to store up enough food to keep himself, 7 others in his family (Genesis 7:7), and every kind of animal alive in the ark (Genesis 6:19) for the 12 months and 10 days they would all remain in the ark (Genesis 7:11, 8:13-17) and until they could grow more food on the destroyed earth after the flood.

And Lot was greatly affected by the judgment on Sodom: he had to flee immediately and leave behind everything he owned; he even lost his wife; and he went to go live in a cave (Genesis 19:30).

I believe Isaiah 26:20-21 could be a command to those of us Christians still alive on the earth right before the 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out (Revelation 16). The 7 vials aren't directed at us Christians, so that our and our families' entering our "chambers" before the 7 vials and "shutting the doors" about us (Isaiah 26:20-21) could protect us in a way like Noah and his family's entering the ark before the flood and the "shutting" of "the door of the ark" protected them (Genesis 6:16, 7:16).

Note that we Christians can still be on the earth during the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16) without being appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) because the 7 vials aren't directed at us Christians. The 1st vial brings a sore only "upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image" (Revelation 16:2), and not upon us Christians. The 2nd vial kills only those creatures living "in the sea" (Revelation 16:3), and not us Christians. The 3rd vial turns to blood only "the rivers and fountains of waters" (Revelation 16:4), and not any stored water of us Christians. In the 4th vial it says only that "men were scorched with great heat" (Revelation 16:9), and not that any of us Christians sheltered from the sun's heat in our "chambers" (Isaiah 26:20) were scorched. I believe that the 5th vial will bring darkness and pain only upon the unbelievers in the kingdom of the beast (Revelation 16:10), and not upon us Christians who will have light sources in our chambers, just as the darkness brought upon the kingdom of Egypt did not come upon God's people who "had light in their dwellings" (Exodus 10:22-23). The 6th vial affects only the Euphrates river (Revelation 16:12), and not us Christians, and at the 6th vial Jesus addresses us Christians; he still hasn't yet "come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15). In the 7th vial, I believe that if the armies of unbelievers gathered at Armageddon can survive the earthquake and hailstones of the 7th vial in order for Jesus to slay them with the sword of his mouth (Revelation 19:19-21), and if there can be unbelievers "left" alive all around the world in bed and working in the field and grinding at the mill (Luke 17:34-36), then we Christians will survive the earthquake and hailstones as well.

Originally posted by Rize
...no man knows the day or hour of Christ's coming...

Click to expand...

Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

Before the 2nd coming, I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).

Good points.

At least we agree on one thing.  The pre-trib rapture is a joke

Still, this doesn't prove anything.

There is a problem with post-trib because of the sign in the sun moon and stars.  It happens at the 6th seal and the people even say "the day of the lords wrath has come".  That sounds a lot like the Day of the Lord to me (going by Mathew 24 for example).  Yet there are months worth of trumpet judgments to come.

How do you explain this in the post-trib position?  Jesus is supposed to get us the moment he comes (you can tell because the Thessalonians in 2 Thess 2 thought they had missed the rapture because the Day of the Lord had come).  But the destruction of the wicked during the Day of the Lord is not an immediate thing.  It's a 7 trumpet 7 bowl process followed by Armageddon (notice that the 7 bowls are referred to as the last 7 plagues; what are the first seven?  The trumpets imo).

Oh, and consider a few things about the great multitude in chapter 7 Revelation.

After the 5th seal, they were told (while under the throne) that they would not be avenged until their number had been completed.

Then in the 6th seal, the world is in terror because the day of God's wrath had come (they saw the sign in the sun moon and stars that Jesus talked about).

Then the 144,000 are sealed and we go to the great multitude who are those who came out of the great tribulation.  They are now standing before the throne which implies that their number has been completed.  The persecution of them by the AC is now finished imo.

Then God's wrath should ensue.

This is exactly what we see.  There is silence in the heavens for 30 minutes then the trumpets begin to sound bringing extreme calamity upon the earth.  If this isn't God's wrath I don't know what is.

Also observe that the bowls/vials are said to be the last 7 plagues (implying that the 7 trumpets are the first... unless you want to say it is the 7 seals, but I disagree for various reasons if anyone would like to contest it).

The only thing to do then is explain the Revelation chronology since it cannot be in chronological order if this is true.

The language structure implies possible breaks in the chronology at just the right places where a break is needed (before and after the details involving the number of the beast for example).

Rize, what's the title of Van Kampen's book?

Originally posted by Andrew
Rize, what's the title of Van Kampen's book?

Click to expand...

The Rapture Question Answered Plain and Simple

He's got another book called The Sign which is basically a peicing together of the entire end-times picture.  However, the entire book relies on accepting the pre-wrath rapture position, so you'd be best off reading the rapture book first.  Plus the Sign is huge and not necessarily as useful.  However, one can judge just how well everything fits together after assuming the pre-wrath position for the rapture at least.

thanks Rize, I am pre-wrath, pre-trib

Brother, you're going to be in for a rude awakening if these are the end times.  Just be sure that it is Christ that you awaken to.

Originally posted by Rize
...There is a problem with post-trib because of the sign in the sun moon and stars.  It happens at the 6th seal...

Click to expand...

The fact that the sun is darkened at the 6th seal may not be prima facie evidence that the 6th seal is after the tribulation, as in Matthew 24:29, for the sun is equally darkened in the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2). So the sun may be darkened more than once: twice in the tribulation and then again after the tribulation.

Also, at the 6th seal the moon appears blood red (Revelation 6:12), whereas after the tribulation the moon will not give any light at all: it will be entirely dark (Matthew 24:29). So I think the 6th seal event may not be the same event as the one after the tribulation. Joel 2:31 says the moon will turn to blood before the day of the Lord, which indeed it will, for the 6th seal may be some time before the 2nd coming.

We know that literal stars are much too big to fall to earth, in fact, each one is millions of times larger than the earth, so the stars that will fall to earth must be meteorites. While there will be a meteorite shower after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), so also there are meteoritic events during the tribulation, such as the 2nd and 3rd trumpets (Revelation 8:8-10). So the 6th seal meteoritic event may not be the same as the one after the tribulation.

Originally posted by Rize
... and the people even say "the day of the lords wrath has come"...

Click to expand...

Don't unbelievers say all sorts of wrong things in John's writings that aren't corrected? Should we believe that Jesus "deceiveth the people" because of what some unbelievers say in John 7:12? Should we believe that "out of Galilee ariseth no prophet" because of what some unbelievers say in John 7:52? Should we believe that because "we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is" (John 7:27) that Jesus must not be the Christ? If not, then should we necessarily believe that "the great day of his wrath is come" in the 6th seal because of what some unbelievers say in Revelation 6:17?

I think that Revelation 6:16-17 could be the terrified hyperbole of the unsaved, that they can't actually see the face of the Father sitting on his throne in heaven (Revelation 5:7), and that the 6th seal may not actually be God's wrath. Note that those in heaven don't say God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 16:1).

I think John could be seeing a cataclysmic event that precedes the trumpets, which may be an historically unprecedented volcanic eruption which will trigger devastating earthquakes all around the world, and which will fill the atmosphere with ash, blocking the light from the sun and making the moon appear blood red. I think this could be accompanied (possibly triggered) by a storm of large meteorites, "falling stars," which will hit the ground, and atmospheric explosions of those which don't make it to the ground.

When they see these horrors, the unsaved will no doubt believe they're all going to die, as "seeing the face of God" means death (Exodus 33:20), and that these events are God's wrath. But God's wrath may not be come in the 6th seal, nor in the 7th, nor in the 7 trumpets. God's wrath may not be come until the final stage of the great tribulation, the 7 vials (Revelation 16), which aren't directed at believers; we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12).

Originally posted by postrib
The fact that the sun is darkened at the 6th seal may not be prima facie evidence that the 6th seal is after the tribulation, as in Matthew 24:29, for the sun is equally darkened in the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2). So the sun may be darkened more than once: twice in the tribulation and then again after the tribulation.

Click to expand...

I said sun moon and stars.  Big difference there. 

Originally posted by postrib
Also, at the 6th seal the moon appears blood red (Revelation 6:12), whereas after the tribulation the moon will not give any light at all: it will be entirely dark (Matthew 24:29). So I think the 6th seal event may not be the same event as the one after the tribulation. Joel 2:31 says the moon will turn to blood before the day of the Lord, which indeed it will, for the 6th seal may be some time before the 2nd coming.

Click to expand...

Mathew 24:29 says that "the moon will not give it's light".  The moon being blood red certainly qualifies the moon for not giving any of its light (for the moons light is not blood red).  A technicality perhaps, but with the correlation between of the sun and stars as well, it's undeniable for me.

Originally posted by postrib
We know that literal stars are much too big to fall to earth, in fact, each one is millions of times larger than the earth, so the stars that will fall to earth must be meteorites. While there will be a meteorite shower after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), so also there are meteoritic events during the tribulation, such as the 2nd and 3rd trumpets (Revelation 8:8-10). So the 6th seal meteoritic event may not be the same as the one after the tribulation.

Click to expand...

Yes, but the word star does not mean the same that it means to us.  It does not say that all the stars, but only the stars will fall from the sky.  This could be a reference to meteors or something (a massive meteor shower perhaps).  Ah, I see that you agree.  But look at the 2nd and 3rd trumpets.  They are large meteors.  Perhaps, as in Beauseigner's trilogy and in the popular film "Armageddon", a barrage of smaller meteors will be precede the big ones.  The mention of sun, moon and stars along with the people cringing because the day of the lord's wrath has come is unmistakable to me.  I cannot deny it.

Originally posted by postrib
Don't unbelievers say all sorts of wrong things in John's writings that aren't corrected? Should we believe that Jesus "deceiveth the people" because of what some unbelievers say in John 7:12? Should we believe that "out of Galilee ariseth no prophet" because of what some unbelievers say in John 7:52? Should we believe that because "we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is" (John 7:27) that Jesus must not be the Christ? If not, then should we necessarily believe that "the great day of his wrath is come" in the 6th seal because of what some unbelievers say in Revelation 6:17?

Click to expand...

Unbelievers do, but in those cases it is implicit that they are wrong.  In this case, it is not.  Jesus himself said that his wrath would follow the sign in the sun moon and stars (which is a quote from the OT of which there are more if I'm not mistaken).  The sign is also the same.  Unless you have some strong evidence that points me to another position, I cannot ignore this clear teaching.

Originally posted by postrib
I think that Revelation 6:16-17 could be the terrified hyperbole of the unsaved, that they can't actually see the face of the Father sitting on his throne in heaven (Revelation 5:7), and that the 6th seal may not actually be God's wrath. Note that those in heaven don't say God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 16:1).

Click to expand...

According to the NASB, Revelation 11:15-19 says that the Your wrath came.

Originally posted by postrib
I think John could be seeing a cataclysmic event that precedes the trumpets, which may be an historically unprecedented volcanic eruption which will trigger devastating earthquakes all around the world, and which will fill the atmosphere with ash, blocking the light from the sun and making the moon appear blood red. I think this could be accompanied (possibly triggered) by a storm of large meteorites, "falling stars," which will hit the ground, and atmospheric explosions of those which don't make it to the ground.

Click to expand...

Ok.  What if it does?  That doesn't change where the sign appears

Originally posted by postrib
When they see these horrors, the unsaved will no doubt believe they're all going to die, as "seeing the face of God" means death (Exodus 33:20), and that these events are God's wrath. But God's wrath may not be come in the 6th seal, nor in the 7th, nor in the 7 trumpets. God's wrath may not be come until the final stage of the great tribulation, the 7 vials (Revelation 16), which aren't directed at believers; we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12).

Click to expand...

I think it's clear that God's wrath begins with the trumpets.

Present stuff that clearly opposes a pre-wrath position like this.  Attacking the sign in the sun moon and stars isn't working.