Got scruptures 'bout heLL ???

Gospel Guy said:

The Bible never teaches anywhere that it is possible for man to cease to exist once each individual has been created and becomes conscience... the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (Romans 11:29) which includes being made alive, which means no man will ever cease to be consciously alive and aware after being created by God because man is a spirit that was created in God's image.

What we are doing in this life is deciding WHERE we will be alive at after this life is over... will we spend eternity being tortured and puinished along with satan and his angels in hell that was created for him and all those that belong to him, or will we spend eternity with the Father as a member of His family enjoying His presence where it's all good and no evil exists?

For all you folks that think there's not going to be people sent to hell where they will be alive and tormented just like satan and his devils for whom hell was created for... for your own good you'd better think again:

Click to expand...

So, God being a God of love, a good God and one who wants a "daddy" type relationship creates people knowing that the vast majority will spend eternity in torment.

Where goodness and love is in that scenario?

This God, who is just, who, when talking to man about justice says "But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise", which to me seems harsh, but just, condemns someone to eternal conscious torment for the sin of another man (Adam).

Where is the justice in that?

In fact, what sin can be done that requires an eternal punishment?

In my view, God's goodness, love and justice are compromised by an eternal punishment in hell.

That is not to say that: hell doesn't exist; that the verses you quoted are wrong; nor that God does not treat sin seriously.

It is just to say that, in my view, the traditional view of hell is flawed and there must be a better way which allows the goodness, love and justice of God to remain uncompromised.

53 passages proving that Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a Biblical Doctrine. The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever. They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.

1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

26
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

27
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

28
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

29
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

30
Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

31
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

32
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

33
Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

34
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

35
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

36
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

37
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

38
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

39
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

40
Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

41
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

42
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

43
Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

44
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.

45 and 46
Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return. (Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)

47
Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.

48
Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.

49
Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.

50
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.

51
2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.

52
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6

53
2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.


There is a mountain of scripture that says that the lost perish, are destroyed, and go to their deaths, and only those in Christ receive eternal life.

Haha ... I could do a similar thing for universalism ... I have a list of 100 verses.

Doesn't seem much point, though, as for me its more about how the concepts fit in with the rest of scripture and the nature and character of God.

God is good. God is love. Creating people the vast majority of whom will have to be either killed or sent to eternal torment in hell does not sound good or loving. So the nature of God is compromised.

I think evangelical universalism fits the bill. God is seem to be good, love and just and ... all people are eventually reconciled to Him in Christ and what was achieved at Calvary, which is after all what He wants. 1 Tim 2: 4

Win win, if you ask me.

Excellent job Gospel Guy.

Almost three decades ago, I use to bump into others that were putting time and effort as to where they will be spending their 'forever' time in, ie, all awake somewhere to await their new bodies either to be cast into the lake of fire, or be with God, forever and ever. In today's time either have a OSAS attitude, or a mutation of, or could care less.

Just ol' old Jack

MikeBigg said:

Haha ... I could do a similar thing for universalism ... I have a list of 100 verses.

Doesn't seem much point, though, as for me its more about how the concepts fit in with the rest of scripture and the nature and character of God.

God is good. God is love. Creating people the vast majority of whom will have to be either killed or sent to eternal torment in hell does not sound good or loving. So the nature of God is compromised.

I think evangelical universalism fits the bill. God is seem to be good, love and just and ... all people are eventually reconciled to Him in Christ and what was achieved at Calvary, which is after all what He wants. 1 Tim 2: 4

Win win, if you ask me.

Click to expand...

I agree that ALL of EVERYONE who is IN CHRIST will receive eternal life. I just don't see scriptural evidence that those who reject Christ will also inherit eternal life in Heaven, on Earth, or in Hell (as some imagine).

Please post the scriptures supporting Universalism. I WANT to be convinced that everyone will have eternal life. I don't agree, but I am willing to discuss whatever the Bible says. I don't agree with "Gospel Guy" because the verses he uses to "prove" eternal torture in Hell don't prove eternal torture in Hell.

MikeBigg said:

Haha ... I could do a similar thing for universalism ... I have a list of 100 verses.

Doesn't seem much point, though, as for me its more about how the concepts fit in with the rest of scripture and the nature and character of God.

God is good. God is love. Creating people the vast majority of whom will have to be either killed or sent to eternal torment in hell does not sound good or loving. So the nature of God is compromised.

I think evangelical universalism fits the bill. God is seem to be good, love and just and ... all people are eventually reconciled to Him in Christ and what was achieved at Calvary, which is after all what He wants. 1 Tim 2: 4

Win win, if you ask me.

Click to expand...

People who see only the love, goodness, mercy of God unfortunately ignore the judgment and justice of God. Notice how much of your view is about you, what you think, etc. and not about scripture.

Join us in the other two threads about Hell, "The Wages of sin is death..." and "Hell I'm not seeing it..." There is lots of scripture there. There is no need in having 3-4 threads about the same topic.

Timothew said:

I agree that ALL of EVERYONE who is IN CHRIST will receive eternal life. I just don't see scriptural evidence that those who reject Christ will also inherit eternal life in Heaven, on Earth, or in Hell (as some imagine).

Please post the scriptures supporting Universalism. I WANT to be convinced that everyone will have eternal life. I don't agree, but I am willing to discuss whatever the Bible says. I don't agree with "Gospel Guy" because the verses he uses to "prove" eternal torture in Hell don't prove eternal torture in Hell.

Click to expand...

I was just curious, eg, Rev.20:10, "...was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.....;and they shall be tormented by day and by night for the eons of the eons."

Do you view this as a forever 'party,' annihilation, and etc. or not happy campers? My view is they are presently looking for pain meds. and hopefully no room in the "lake hotel" for me as too full, ie, due to the time I was born into. I'm shooting for the upper levels of hell, and better yet the lowest latrine cleaner in heaven's glory.

Just ol' old non-partying Jack

Timothew said:

I agree that ALL of EVERYONE who is IN CHRIST will receive eternal life. I just don't see scriptural evidence that those who reject Christ will also inherit eternal life in Heaven, on Earth, or in Hell (as some imagine).

Please post the scriptures supporting Universalism. I WANT to be convinced that everyone will have eternal life. I don't agree, but I am willing to discuss whatever the Bible says. I don't agree with "Gospel Guy" because the verses he uses to "prove" eternal torture in Hell don't prove eternal torture in Hell.

Click to expand...

The discourse in Romans 5 I find compelling. Verse 18 says: "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."

My suggestion would be to read the abridged Hope Beyond Hell book:

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/pdf/Hope_Beyond_Hell_Abridged.pdf

HopeBeyondHell.net — The Righteous Purpose of God's Judgment

I'll see if I can find the list of 100 verses and post them if I do.

Regards,

Mike

Der Alter said:

People who see only the love, goodness, mercy of God unfortunately ignore the judgment and justice of God.

Click to expand...

Did you miss that I spoke about the goodness, love and justice of God. My conclusion being that I find the traditional view of hell and eternal torment compromises all three.

Notice how much of your view is about you, what you think, etc. and not about scripture.

Click to expand...

That's because they are my views, thoughts and feelings based on my study of the Bible, my reading of books and my relationship with God. I wouldn't want to put my views out there as fact, even though they are, I consider, Bible based.

Join us in the other two threads about Hell, "The Wages of sin is death..." and "Hell I'm not seeing it..." There is lots of scripture there. There is no need in having 3-4 threads about the same topic.

Click to expand...

I have read some of the other threads. I'm happy to have not contributed to them. They seem to develop into a verse / history throwing contest, which is not my style. Thank you for the invitation, though.


Mike

shturt678 said:

I was just curious, eg, Rev.20:10, "...was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.....;and they shall be tormented by day and by night for the eons of the eons."

Do you view this as a forever 'party,' annihilation, and etc. or not happy campers? My view is they are presently looking for pain meds. and hopefully no room in the "lake hotel" for me as too full, ie, due to the time I was born into. I'm shooting for the upper levels of hell, and better yet the lowest latrine cleaner in heaven's glory.

Just ol' old non-partying Jack

Click to expand...

Well, I believe what the Bible says. The lake of fire is the second death. So naturally, those who are cast into it die the second death. I don't believe that they are happy campers, being that they are dead. Don't shoot for the "upper levels of hell", which would mean that you are dead. "Shoot" for eternal life in Christ. Those of us (And I think this includes you) who have eternal life will have a party forever. Those who do not have eternal life will be dead and won't be able to party at all.

Gospel Guy said:

The Bible never teaches anywhere that it is possible for man to cease to exist once each individual has been created and becomes conscience... the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (Romans 11:29) which includes being made alive, which means no man will ever cease to be consciously alive and aware after being created by God because man is a spirit that was created in God's image.

What we are doing in this life is deciding WHERE we will be alive at after this life is over... will we spend eternity being tortured and puinished along with satan and his angels in hell that was created for him and all those that belong to him, or will we spend eternity with the Father as a member of His family enjoying His presence where it's all good and no evil exists?

For all you folks that think there's not going to be people sent to hell where they will be alive and tormented just like satan and his devils for whom hell was created for... for your own good you'd better think again:

Click to expand...

I find it ironic that your username is GOSPEL which means 'good news' and yet you are here promoting eternal purposeless torture of a kind that is worse than even Hitler can be accused of. If God is incapable of saving all with his plan for his creation then he is the worst despot of all to have even created those whom he, in his omniscience, knew would never accept Him in this age. Especially if they were not "predestined, fore-ordained, called, chosen" or lucky enough to have been in 'the elect' group, to begin with; as I believe I was. Thankfully God's has ages to deal with man.

EPH 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace 8 which he lavished upon us.
9 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ
10 as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite ALL (ALL ALL) things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

If He hasn't called you in this age then you will bend the knee following the judgment of the ages to come.

ROM 14:11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give PRAISE to God."

I like to think that as the scripture above says 'his will' is a mystery. Just as his 'plan for the fulness of time' appears to be.

If anyone thinks people being tortured in the hell of the orthodox church are going to "give PRAISE to God", then we obviously don't think alike.

I think this nonsense about eternal torture in hell has been well refuted.

I was wearing my WWJD plastic bracelet at the movies last weekend. Some guy's cellphone rings and the guy starts a loud conversation. I turned to him and politely asked him to take his call in the lobby. He says to me "Mind your own darn (not darn, another word) business. As I was choking the guy, I saw the WWJD bracelet on my wrist, so I let him go. Then I set him on fire and sent him to hell.

Just Kidding!

MikeBigg said:

The discourse in Romans 5 I find compelling. Verse 18 says: "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people."

My suggestion would be to read the abridged Hope Beyond Hell book:

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/pdf/Hope_Beyond_Hell_Abridged.pdf

HopeBeyondHell.net — The Righteous Purpose of God's Judgment

I'll see if I can find the list of 100 verses and post them if I do.

Regards,

Mike

Click to expand...

I read a few pages at your link. Everything the guy is saying is based on his personal feelings. How he felt when a muslim, named Anjou, asked him if he would see his wife and daughter again who were killed in a ferry accident and he could not answer. I wonder what does Islam offers its followers?

There is a scriptural answer.


The Muslim's wife and daughter wil not be judged on something they have never heard.

The writer of that book starts off with a truckload of assumptions before he even cites one verse.

From the introduction pp.6-7


Here is a passage that addresses the will of God and the will of men.

Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is [size=+1]הדבקתי[/size]/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”


Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Der Alter said:

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Click to expand...

Isn't this what I've been trying to tell you for four years?
Haven't you said time and time again that God hasn't ever destroyed a soul (Ignoring that my position is that wicked souls will be destroyed in the future, on Judgment Day).

I don't know how you can read what is plainly there, and still believe in the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

Timothew said:

Isn't this what I've been trying to tell you for four years?
Haven't you said time and time again that God hasn't ever destroyed a soul (Ignoring that my position is that wicked souls will be destroyed in the future, on Judgment Day).

I don't know how you can read what is plainly there, and still believe in the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

Click to expand...

Notice how your bias drove you to ignore that entire post and only see only one word? I thought about leaving out that last line but I deliberately left it in knowing you would jump on it like a duck on a june bug. Here is the definition of the word translated "destroy."


Ooops it does not mean to destroy in the eternal sense.

Der Alter said:

I read a few pages at your link. Everything the guy is saying is based on his personal feelings. How he felt when a muslim, named Anjou, asked him if he would see his wife and daughter again who were killed in a ferry accident and he could not answer. I wonder what does Islam offers its followers?

Click to expand...

That's just part of the introduction - it gets better.

If you want a proper theological treatment there are a couple of other books I can recommend, but I don't have links to a free pdf - you'll have to buy them.

They are:

The inescapable love of God by Thomas Tabott; and
The evangelical universalist by Gregory MacDonald aka Robin Parry.

The first has what I consider to be a fairly thorough look at universalism in Paul's writings. I haven't read all the second book yet, but the reviews of it suggest that it is a good treatment of the subject.

regards,

Mike

Der Alter said:

Notice how your bias drove you to ignore that entire post and only see only one word? I thought about leaving out that last line but I deliberately left it in knowing you would jump on it like a duck on a june bug. Here is the definition of the word translated "destroy."

[SIZE=+1]שׁחת[/SIZE]
shâchath
shaw-khath'
A primitive root; to decay, that is, (causatively) ruin (literally or figuratively): - batter, cast off, corrupt (-er, thing), destroy (-er, -uction), lose, mar, perish, spill, spoiler, X utterly, waste (-r).​

Ooops it does not mean to destroy in the eternal sense.

Click to expand...

My mistake, I'm sure the translators got it wrong when they translated it "destroy". Or maybe not, the definition includes "destroy", so unless one is biased against the definition "destroy", there is no reason that destroy doesn't mean destroy. And if it shachath doesn't mean destroy, then you are disagreeing with the experts who translated it that way.
Strong's Hebrew: 7843. שָׁחַת (shachath) -- perhaps to go to ruin

Parallel Verses
New International Version
I will smash them one against the other, parents and children alike, declares the LORD. I will allow no pity or mercy or compassion to keep me from destroying them.'"

New Living Translation
I will smash them against each other, even parents against children, says the LORD. I will not let my pity or mercy or compassion keep me from destroying them.'"

English Standard Version
And I will dash them one against another, fathers and sons together, declares the LORD. I will not pity or spare or have compassion, that I should not destroy them.’”

New American Standard Bible
"I will dash them against each other, both the fathers and the sons together," declares the LORD. "I will not show pity nor be sorry nor have compassion so as not to destroy them."'"

King James Bible
And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I will smash them against each other, fathers and sons alike"--this is the LORD's declaration. "I will allow no mercy, pity, or compassion to keep Me from destroying them."

International Standard Version
I'll smash them against each other, even fathers against their sons," declares the LORD. "I'll have no pity, mercy, or compassion when I destroy them."'"

NET Bible
And I will smash them like wine bottles against one another, children and parents alike. I will not show any pity, mercy, or compassion. Nothing will keep me from destroying them,' says the LORD."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Then I will smash them like bottles against each other. I will smash parents and children together, declares the LORD. I will have no pity, mercy, or compassion when I destroy them.'"

Jubilee Bible 2000
And I will break them one against another, even the fathers with the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity nor spare nor have mercy to not destroy them.

King James 2000 Bible
And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, says the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

American King James Version
And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, said the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

American Standard Version
And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith Jehovah: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I will scatter them every man from his brother, and fathers and sons in like manner, saith the Lord: I will not spare, and I will not pardon: nor will I have mercy, but to destroy them.

Darby Bible Translation
And I will dash them one against another, both the fathers and the sons together, saith Jehovah; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy so as not to destroy them.

English Revised Version
And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.

Webster's Bible Translation
And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

World English Bible
I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, says Yahweh: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.

Young's Literal Translation
And have dashed them one against another, And the fathers and the sons together, An affirmation of Jehovah, I do not pity, nor spare, nor have I mercy, So as not to destroy them.

I'm wrong and you are right. Everyone is wrong and you are right. Only Der Alter knows.

MikeBigg said:

That's just part of the introduction - it gets better.

If you want a proper theological treatment there are a couple of other books I can recommend, but I don't have links to a free pdf - you'll have to buy them.

They are:

The inescapable love of God by Thomas Tabott; and
The evangelical universalist by Gregory MacDonald aka Robin Parry.

The first has what I consider to be a fairly thorough look at universalism in Paul's writings. I haven't read all the second book yet, but the reviews of it suggest that it is a good treatment of the subject.

regards,

Mike

Click to expand...

He has already told me that he won't read anything except what already agrees with him. He will put this in different words, of course.

Here's a passage ... I'm not sure you can get much more universalist than this :

Col 1: 16 - 19

Kinda fits in nicely with Rom 5:18 and 1 Tim 4:10.