Can Christians lose there salvation?

Pastor N.B. · Feb 8, 2003

Hi Watts:
first let it be known that if (?) there is a Watts or an Elder Mike, for me to have Agape Love for you is not the issue. What you say below in your missive is. The once saved always saved DOCTRINE is a 'hellish' false one. Does that mean that for me to HATE that DOCTRINE, means that 'i' hate you two? But you are saying... hardly the case for REAL FAITH IN CHRIST, huh?? Your bottom line is 'FAITH' alone, with no WORKING OBEDIENT FRUIT seen? This ALSO is a 's'antic doctrinal concept!

Real FAITH in Christ will have us FIRST to serve their MASTER, and then comes our [WORKING OBLIGATION] for man or womankind. When 'millions' & millions are, & have been deceived in the 'burning in hell eternally' doctrine, or this other one, do you believe that it is because they do not have FAITH or perhaps that they are IN THE WRONG FAITH? See Eph. 4:5!

There is ONE FAITH. That is differant than having FAITH! It is when one KNOWS for certain that their denomination is OPENLY LIVING IN KNOWN PRINTABLE SIN (or teaching it) that is the issue here! Do they have FAITH as you claim?? Are they 'in' CHRIST as seen in Rom. 8:1? Hardly! see Joshua 7:12's last part for the truth, THE KEY WORD HERE IS WHEN ONE [KNOWS ABOUT THIS!]. And the ACCURSED here in this thread is about FALSE KNOW DOCTRINE. This is what the study covers 'me' thinks?

Then Christ stated VERY PLAINLY & SIMPLY that there ARE HIS SHEEP in false 'folds' & that He would bring them.. 'BRING' them to 'THIS FOLD'. So there has got to be the TRUE FOLD, Fact! So, if one finds these USELESS & ETERNALLY FLAWED doctrines 'in their Faith or Fold' is it THEIR FAITH then, that of CHRIST, to remain 'yoked' to them in membership?? Hardly! For the Master tells us in His closing book of inspiration that we are 'PARTAKERS" even if we are in yoked membership with known false doctrine. AND HE TELLS US WHAT [*WILL] be our FATE! see Rev. Rev. 18:4 There CAN BE NO MISUNDERING OF THIS VERSE! Yet, the DECISION is 'our work of FAITH' to make!

Somewhere along the way comes this santanic idea that if one has a mental belief (faith) in salvation that that means that one is saved. But NO ONE will be in the kingdon of God that does not follow through on their faith without WORKS of obedience to back it up! try Acts 5:32 To LOVE CHRIST without LOVING WORKS?? See Rev. 3:16-17 how this is a Matt. 25 'fool'ish' Virgin 'FAITH", & it ENDS with these ones being SICKENING to the Master. These are "SPEWED OUT" He says!----But just do your thing, whatever your faith is???---P/N/B/

*******

Originally posted by FOMWatts<><
I tell ya what, let's not be so pushy! Let's discuss like brother's and sister's in Christ. I do not agree with you guys about the topic, so what! I KNOW that ONLY those chosen by God are His children, we can not choose God, I gave many many scripture backing that belief. The same Bible I derived those scripture form says NOT to have foolish arguments and to be quite honest this is a pretty foolish one. Salvation is a personal thing and frankly if you want to worry your whole life about whether or not you are saved, be my guest, but I am covered by the GRACE of GOD, and through my faith ALONE in Him, I will be saved. Not by my confession, or by own good works, but by FAITH. That's it to me, and if you guys want to keep on falling away and coming back that's your decision, but it is one I do not find Biblical, but again it is a personal issue.

The way these discussions go on here make me feel like God would not like them, and they truly aren't important to expanding His kingdom. I just want to enjoy the joy that God gives me in KNOWING that I am His and that I always will be, and nothing can change that God is good, and HE wouldn't want us to argue, ESPECIALLY about salvation I love you guys, and though we don;t agree and probably NEVER will on here, I am sure I'll see you in heaven and we can settle it with a friendly wrestling match, okay ? LOL I truly do love you guys!!!

Blessings,
FOMWatts<><

Pastor N.B. · Feb 8, 2003

Hi Forum: (and Watts)
Just a quick remark about my past post. It mentioned that the graph or poll at the top of the page was about 5 & 5, percentage wise, as being compared to Matt. 25's five wise & five foolish Virgins? And it was just intended on my part, as a passing thought.

You know the question asked in the survey? Well when I posted my first missive, it showed 25 for & 23 against, (or somewhere in that close range?) but now when I came back to view the response again, what do I find??

So, just let me leave you with one verse found in 2 Cor. 4:1-2 in part & with my highlights.

"THEREFORE seeing we have this ministry, ... HAVE renounced the [HIDDEN THINGS OF DISHONESTY], [NOT WALKING IN CRAFTINESS], nor [HANDELING THE WORD OF GOD DECEITFULLY].."

If one doesn't pass this test, I care not to respond to their remarks.

Now for the bottom line, has the graph been tampered with??? I do not know. Yet, if it has been, it is the owner of the site here, that is BOTTOM LINE responsible for its 'moderators' truthfulness, or do others have that access? Try Rev. 18:4? Let me put this another way, if I was the owner of any site, and 'if' this was done, and it was brought to my attention? This person would be by, by, unless confessed OPENLY!!

And if this were the case, which side benefitted by the change made? Your answer would be very interesting! ---P/N/B/

****

Originally posted by FOMWatts<><
I tell ya what, let's not be so pushy! Let's discuss like brother's and sister's in Christ. I do not agree with you guys about the topic, so what! I KNOW that ONLY those chosen by God are His children, we can not choose God, I gave many many scripture backing that belief. The same Bible I derived those scripture form says NOT to have foolish arguments and to be quite honest this is a pretty foolish one. Salvation is a personal thing and frankly if you want to worry your whole life about whether or not you are saved, be my guest, but I am covered by the GRACE of GOD, and through my faith ALONE in Him, I will be saved. Not by my confession, or by own good works, but by FAITH. That's it to me, and if you guys want to keep on falling away and coming back that's your decision, but it is one I do not find Biblical, but again it is a personal issue.

The way these discussions go on here make me feel like God would not like them, and they truly aren't important to expanding His kingdom. I just want to enjoy the joy that God gives me in KNOWING that I am His and that I always will be, and nothing can change that God is good, and HE wouldn't want us to argue, ESPECIALLY about salvation I love you guys, and though we don;t agree and probably NEVER will on here, I am sure I'll see you in heaven and we can settle it with a friendly wrestling match, okay ? LOL I truly do love you guys!!!

Blessings,
FOMWatts<><

Ben johnson · Feb 8, 2003

I love you guys, and though we don;t agree and probably NEVER will on here, I am sure I'll see you in heaven and we can settle it with a friendly wrestling match, okay ? LOL I truly do love you guys!!!

Likewise!

And I think we can find a LOT of agreement. We agree that perseverence is essential to salvation (though we may disagree on the SOURCE of that perseverence), we agree that salvation is IN CHRIST, we agree on "born again---new nature".

For two people who ARE fellowshipping "In Christ", one believes in predestination, one does not---both are certainly saved, both can fellowship in love and harmony.

Is that enough agreement???

(But I much prefer THUMB wrestling...)

jayebrownlee · Feb 8, 2003

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Likewise!

And I think we can find a LOT of agreement. We agree that perseverence is essential to salvation (though we may disagree on the SOURCE of that perseverence), we agree that salvation is IN CHRIST, we agree on "born again---new nature".

For two people who ARE fellowshipping "In Christ", one believes in predestination, one does not---both are certainly saved, both can fellowship in love and harmony.

Is that enough agreement???

(But I much prefer THUMB wrestling...)

Amen, although I not sure about the thumb wrestling.

I am kind of feeling that this thread is going round in circles now, really because the two sides are both firmly set in their beliefs. I am not going to close it and I will continue to come and see what is being said here but unless I feel very very strongly about something I think I am going to take a bit of a back seat now.

Those posting here are saved (or at least if we are telling the truth we are) and that is all that really matters. God understands what is going on here and knows the answer to every question that has been raised, once we join Him we will also know the answers, untill that day let us agree to disagree while being sure of our own salvation and rejoicing in God's grace.

Your sister in Christ

Jay

Ben johnson · Feb 8, 2003

God understands what is going on here and knows the answer to every question that has been raised, once we join Him we will also know the answers...

"We know in part, we prophesy in part; but when the Perfect comes, the partial will be done away. Now we see in a mirror dimy (in a riddle), but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

...until that day let us agree to disagree while being sure of our own salvation and rejoicing in God's grace.

You speak great wisdom, grasshopper...

Rize · Feb 9, 2003

Originally posted by Ben johnson
God "has chosen us before the foundation of the World"---but it is CHRIST who was before the foundation, predestined to die-on-the-Cross; and we are "chosen IN HIM, when we BELIEVE."

Matt22:2-14 explains it very well---ALL are called, SOME respond, and FEWER respond righteously. Verse 14 sums it up nicely: "For MANY are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN."

Those who hold to "Predestined-Election" say that God has TWO calls, a sincere (irresistible) call for His CHOSEN and an INSINCERE call for everyone else...

GOD is INSINCERE???

Yet according to the parable, all were called alike---those who CAME, did so because they wanted to. Those who came AND clothed themselves with righteousness, again was because they wanted to...

Please read 2Thess2:13, Rize---God has "chosen us from the beginning ...through our own faith"---it's not very complicated...

I think that we are only predestined and chosen in that God already knows everything.  Some how, we still have our own free will (or else, the world is a huge puppet show and it doesn't matter what we think anyway).

Ben johnson · Feb 9, 2003

I think that we are only predestined and chosen in that God already knows everything. Some how, we still have our own free will (or else, the world is a huge puppet show and it doesn't matter what we think anyway).

Just so!

Jesus died on a cross as the propitiation (appeasement) for our sins. Was it an EFFECTIVE death? According to Predestined-Election, it was NOT EFFECTIVE. For God had chosen BEFORE who are to be saved. Thus the CROSS does not EFFECT salvation---it is only the atonement for those God has ORDAINED.

"Limited Atonement" reduces the Cross to DEMONSTRATIVE, rather than EFFECTIVE; Jesus hanging on the Cross, becomes pageantry.

Why then is the Cross necessary for those God has already chosen? (This is not a rhetorical question---I would sincerely appreciate an answer from those-who-believe-in "Predestined-Election")...

eldermike · Feb 10, 2003

If God knew me before the foundation of the earth then He knew the need for the cross before the foundation of the earth. Because He knows my choices means nothing to me before I choose them. Because I was going to be born with the stain of sin and then choose life later, and He knew it, means not one thing to the process I went though to make the choice, to me it's still a choice.

I think we are getting the nature of God mixed two strongly into the mix of ideas here. God's knowledge of my choices doesn't make them any easier to me. So, it's not like I have nothing to worry about and especially remembering that Jesus sweat blood over the idea of dieing on a cross even though He knew it would be ok in the end.

The so called "transactional Christianity" sounds easy but it only describes the nature of God, it has nothing to do with making Christianity easy.

Pastor N.B. · Feb 10, 2003

Elder M.
This is one of the best statements that I have ever read in simple language! Thanks! Plain, clear, and TRUTHFUL!

Just a side thought, we caught a Babtist ministers remark on TV yesterday. He was talking about New Age & Christianity 'i' think? Any way, he was saying that some are saying that first there was the tad-pol, then the polly-wog, then the frog came along, then the monkey, then the man, now comes the Phd! (hope that I got that right?)

Now for your fallout? You did know that we are not suppose to think though? (smile) We are programed robots, huh? ---P/N/B/

PS: Thanks 'someone' out there, for re/setting the graph to its honest setting!

******

Today at 11:45 AM eldermike said this in Post #268 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=644602#post644602)

If God knew me before the foundation of the earth then He knew the need for the cross before the foundation of the earth. Because He knows my choices means nothing to me before I choose them. Because I was going to be born with the stain of sin and then choose life later, and He knew it, means not one thing to the process I went though to make the choice, to me it's still a choice.

I think we are getting the nature of God mixed two strongly into the mix of ideas here. God's knowledge of my choices doesn't make them any easier to me. So, it's not like I have nothing to worry about and especially remembering that Jesus sweat blood over the idea of dieing on a cross even though He knew it would be ok in the end.

The so called "transactional Christianity" sounds easy but it only describes the nature of God, it has nothing to do with making Christianity easy.

eldermike · Feb 10, 2003

Pastor N.B.,
Thanks.
I do enjoy reading your posts.

standing in the gap,
Eldermike

Ben johnson · Feb 10, 2003

If God knew me before the foundation of the earth then He knew the need for the cross before the foundation of the earth. Because He knows my choices means nothing to me before I choose them. Because I was going to be born with the stain of sin and then choose life later, and He knew it, means not one thing to the process I went though to make the choice, to me it's still a choice.

We agree on everything except thw power of that choice; you understand that: though "to YOU it was a choice", in the grander scheme of things you HAD no choice---your "choice" was decreed by God.

The whole question here is simply, "does God KNOW your choice before hand?" ---or does God MACHINATE your choice from the start? Does the believer have the choice, to choose? (This is our difference---you say "no", I say "yes"...)

Let's say "PREDESTINATION" is right, Scripturally; so it is GOD who decrees that this person be saved, and that OTHER one be ignored (and left to his reprobation); the choice having been made MILLENIA ago, before the creation of the Earth[/b]. What purpose does the Cross serve? I know the "pat" answer, "the sacrifice needed to be made"; why? Why the second covenant at all?

What I'm struggling to understand, is why Jesus needed to be sacrificed? If God imputes His righteousness to us, apart from our will or choice, then why did Jesus need to be sacrificed? THe Bible says, "that all who behold Him and believe, may have eternal life". God determines who will believe, and still needs to send Jesus to BE that sacrifice?

In light of "predestinationism", I say "Jesus sacrifice was demonstrative, not effective"; you say "Jesus sacrifice WAS effective, but only for those God PRE-CHOSE". Why?

SoccerAaron · Feb 10, 2003

God's knowledge of my choices doesn't make them any easier to me. So, it's not like I have nothing to worry about and especially remembering that Jesus sweat blood over the idea of dieing on a cross even though He knew it would be ok in the end.

Refer to my sig. Why'd he repeat himself? He said "For those he foreknew, he ALSO predestined". He did not say "For those he foreknew , he also foreknew"

Ben johnson · Feb 10, 2003

Romans 8:29 (paraphrased to fit Arminianism by me) "For those he foreknew, he also foreknew".

I am not an Arminianist---but I suppose I'm closer to that than I am to Calvinism.

"Proginosko", "knew beforehand". Predestined for what? For salvation? Not what it says. It says:
"For those whom He KNEW BEFORE, He purposed them to be CONFORMED to the image of Jesus---that Jesus might be the first among many". (see Eph4:13-14) Could His "FOREKNOWING" embrace "Knowing those who CHOOSE Him"?

If I may turn your technique back on you, how do you read Eph2:8?
"For by grace through grace have you been saved..."? According to Predestined-Election, that MUST be the MEANING; if faith-unto-salvation is but an imposition from God (unilaterally, apart from will---as PE/Calvinism asserts), then it is but a second dispensation of GRACE. "By GRACE through GRACE have you been saved..."

Pastor N.B. · Feb 11, 2003

What IS FAITH?

Is God, GOD? ETERNAL? EVERLASTING GOSPEL & EVERLASTING COVENANT?
Did He know the end from the biginning? End & beginning of what?? You call that, FAITH?? (smile) Still, all of this does not, or can not change the fact of each & every one of us DEVELOPING CHARACTER by His free PROVISIONS & our FREEDOM of CHOICE! Of course He had, (has) eternally known what this bottom line of free choice would be! Including Lucifer, that of HIS VERY FIRST *PERFECT CREATION!---P/N/B/

PS: Perhaps one might study Rom 4:17's last part of the verse to understand to a miute degree of what ETERNAL KNOWLEDGE is??

*****

Yesterday at 08:05 PM Ben johnson said this in Post #273 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=645583#post645583)

I am not an Arminianist---but I suppose I'm closer to that than I am to Calvinism.

"Proginosko", "knew beforehand". Predestined for what? For salvation? Not what it says. It says:
"For those whom He KNEW BEFORE, He purposed them to be CONFORMED to the image of Jesus---that Jesus might be the first among many". (see Eph4:13-14) Could His "FOREKNOWING" embrace "Knowing those who CHOOSE Him"?

If I may turn your technique back on you, how do you read Eph2:8?
"For by grace through grace have you been saved..."? According to Predestined-Election, that MUST be the MEANING; if faith-unto-salvation is but an imposition from God (unilaterally, apart from will---as PE/Calvinism asserts), then it is but a second dispensation of GRACE. "By GRACE through GRACE have you been saved..."

eldermike · Feb 12, 2003

I have been reading Isa 66 this week. I believe if you study this text you will find two types of faith. One is a faith in a relegion and the other is a faith given by God. And, I am thankful to God alone that I have faith. As reasonable as it might be to be Christian, to believe fully in the word of God, I can tell you that I would not be here typing this if it were up to me to find that faith, to convince myself of any of this. God spoke to me and upon His word I believed. That He spoke to me through a friend makes no difference, He still spoke to me. There is no way to maintain a faith in God by works becuase He will not allow it. I am convinced of several matters concerning faith.
It comes from God.
It is maintained by God.
It is given for His purposes, not my good.
It is given so that my life can reveal His Glory, for His pleasure.
It is not a test of man's nature, although we are tested (God already knows our nature, hense, the cross. If man could pass His tests, the cross has no meaning)
God will not give me faith expecting me to manage it through the stain of sin, He will do as He said and forgive me.
He will use my faith for His purpose and that might not be some grand plan, it could be something I didn't even know I did.
He will never leave me, He will eternally light my path even if I don't walk on it.
I don't deserve it.
I can't earn it.
I can't pay back any of the costs for me.
I will stop preaching here.

Blessings

FOMWatts<>< · Feb 15, 2003

AMEN ELDERMIKE!!!!!

Blessings All,
FOMWatts<><

Pastor N.B. · Feb 15, 2003

12th February 2003 at 09:27 AM eldermike said this in Post #275 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=648779#post648779)

I have been reading Isa 66 this week. I believe if you study this text you will find two types of faith. It comes from God.
It is maintained by God.

(zapped for content)

****
P/N/B/ here: Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 are not for our good??

God did not CREAT any being, including Luciffer, Adam or Eve, and ALL of us, with a PERFECT DEVELOPED CHARACTER did He?? He wanted faith developed regardless of how one feels, Did He not?? Emotion, feelings are not true faith, are they?? Yet, they might be the after effects, at times??

And a person must be Bora Again & re/created with this FIRST love, right? And in Rev. 3:16-17 we see that this is ONLY the starting point, 'me' thinks! These CONVERTED ones who have their names at present, recorded in the Lambs book of life ARE IN TROUBLE! Their LOVE has become a sickening one the Master says! Yet, they DO HAVE THE BORN AGAIN AGAPE LOVE.

And, it (Agape Love) was given to us to be tested safe to SAVE! Do I really LOVE you LORD? Over, the LONG DURATION?? We will see shortly? See Na. 1:9

Tested?? Try our first parents. A beautiful tree right there in the midst of the garden!! And they were PERFECT (very good) And US?? Try Rom. 8:1.
'Not my good' .. you say below???
Just remember, in the NEW BIRTH, or the BORN AGAIN life, one is GIVEN A NEW NATURE!! See 2 Cor. 3:3 And this NEW NATURE needs testing to DEVELOPE A CHARACTER where as sin WILL NOT ARISE A SECOND TIME!!
****

It is given for His purposes, not my good.
It is given so that my life can reveal His Glory, for His pleasure.
It is not a test of man's nature, although we are tested (God already knows our nature, hense, the cross. If man could pass His tests, the cross has no meaning)
God will not give me faith expecting me to manage it through the stain of sin,

****
P/N/B/ here: Faith is given in 'MEASURE' at re/creation, it grows only in MATURITY! (again BY THE POWER IN CHRIST) Yet, it MUST DEVELOPE! That IS OUR WORK. (it still is by the Master's given Power, but is ALWAYS our free will) Every son God says that He receiveth IS SCOURGED. (chastisement) Why?? To DEVELOPE UNWAVERING FAITH! (mature Character)
****

(zapped fpr content)

He will never leave me, He will eternally light my path even if I don't walk on it.

***
P/N/B/ here: This above is not accurate! "And the LORD said, [MY SPIRIT SHALL NOT ALWAYS STRIVE WITH MAN], ..." Gen. 6:3.
***

(again zapped for content)

I will stop preaching here.

*****
P/N/B/ here: Hi friend, I shortened your sermon! Smile!
*****

Blessings

eldermike · Feb 16, 2003

Yes, God's Spirit will not always strive with man, there will be no need in Heaven, now will there?

Blessings

Pastor N.B. · Feb 16, 2003

Hi friend,
what are you suggesting? This verse reads:

"And the Lord said, My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for he also is flesh, [FOR HIS DAYS SHALL BE AN HUNDRED AND TWENTY YEARS]." Gen. 6:3

Perhaps you think that we will only live these 120 yrs. in heaven? (smile!)

Or perhaps this was a date given by God for the ENDING of the antediluvian age.---P/N/B/
*******

Today at 06:44 PM eldermike said this in Post #278 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=657431#post657431)

Yes, God's Spirit will not always strive with man, there will be no need in Heaven, now will there?

Blessings

eldermike · Feb 17, 2003

No, It's just 2 seperate thoughts. Both results of Sin. Mans days on earth are numbered and a new way of being with God on earth.

Can Christians lose there salvation?

Can a Christian lose there salvation?

yes, if they lose their faith

no, never

depends on the situation

only if they commit the unforgiveable sin

unsure

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