Israel and the Church

Dispy · Sep 1, 2013

Anaphero said:
OK, thanks for clarifying! The article you posted above was very helpful as well! I am reading some of L.S. Chafer right now, trying to get some clarification on a few things. A lot in my library is dispensational by nature but I do not think I had connected the dots until I set out to study the different schools of thought (i.e. CT, NCT, DT, PD).
Another few questions if you do not mind...When does Israel and the Church fulfill God's plan for both? Is it after the Millennial kingdom? Also, what is the purpose of the Millennial Kingdom?
Thanks for your patience and taking the time to answer my questions! I know that I could probably find the answers eventually but sometimes I like to be enlightened through interaction.

God Bless

I am impressed with your desire to understand the Bible "rightly divided" (2 Tim. 2:15). Too many take the "spoon fed" gospel given by denominationalists.

I do believe that studying the Bible from a dispensational viewpoint is the proper way to study. However keep in mind that there are 3 major dispensational viewpoints. There are the Acts 2 dispies, the mid-Acts, Acts 13 dispies, and the Acts 28:28 dispies.

The most traditionalist dispies believe the Church, the Body of Christ, began at Pentecost. The Acts 9 - mid-Acts dispies believe it began with the conversion of Saul/Paul, and the Acts 28:28 dispies believe it began with Paul receiving the full knowledge of the mystery. I consider myself a non-denominational Acts 9/mid-Acts dispy.

To help you understand my position better, I would like to send you a couple of books written by Joel Finck. He writes in a manner that a beginner Bible study individual can understand. Don't believe that he uses a word that costs more then 15 cents. (My kind of teacher).

The books are titled Common Questions About the Grace Message, and THE MYSTERY.

If you wish to receive these books just PM me with your name and mailing address, and I will send them to you at my expense. I promise{/B] I will keep that information private, and will not send you any other un-requested material.

Looking forward to your reply.

Danoh · Sep 1, 2013

prov1810 said:
Jewish and gentile believers are today united in one body. The New Jerusalem will unite all who believe in Jesus in a building whose very architecture unites the old and new covenants. The old Jerusalem will be destroyed (Matt. 24:35; 2 Pet 3.10). I do not believe in replacement theology. But I do believe that after the promises to Israel are fulfilled on Earth this fulfillment will continue forever in a new Jerusalem that replaces the old one.

Prior to the Spirit's declaration of Israel's fall in Acts 7 per Matt. 12's warning of unpardonable sin, Israel was basically still considered the Circumcision, Acts 3. But with their fall at Acts 7, they were now considered Uncircumcision, or heathen; now no longer any closer to God than the Gentiles, albeit, temporarily, Rom. 2 and 9-11.

This is why you see Paul go to both, an understanding without which agreement with James, Cephas, and John to confine his ministry to the Gentiles appears to contradict his consistent practice of going to both.

God had concluded "All" under sin, that He might now show His mercy to both without distinction. It is why this is an AGE of grace and peace on God's part toward all humanity "until the fulness of" this offer to and through "the Gentiles be come in."

This work of God among and through the Gentiles directly, rather than through Israel (on hold for now), is part of the mystery solely preached by the Apostle, aptly commissioned, of (belonging to) the Gentiles.

The fullness of the Gentiles also refers to Paul's warning in Rom. 11, taken up by him earlier, in 2 Thess. 2. In both places he warns of the highmindedness which will end this AGE of God's offer of UNMERITED Grace and Peace as He once more begins to move events, this time, at last, towards His making a short work (seven years) in righteousness upon this planet, ending that with the promise of Peter's Circumcision gospel in Acts 3; 1 Peter 1 and 2 Peter 3 - the Lord's promise of His return to Israel.::

James, Cephas and John then had their "Great Commission" confined to "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16). In other words, "they of (belonging to) the Circumcision which (had) believed... the gospel of (belonging to) the Circumcision" Acts 3; 10:45; Rom. 2:27-29; Rom. 9:6-8.

They, together with those yet future Great Tribulation saints will inherit the kingdom prophesied by Moses in Ex. 19, and so forth throughout the OT, and reiterated by the Lord in Matt. 25.

The Body of Christ is "a new creature" God had kept His plan and purpose to one day begin forming a secret until Paul, 1 Cor. 2; Eph. 1-3, etc.

It is by way of this seemingly odd, one apostle too many to God's purpose in the Twelve before Paul; it is by the very gospel by which he himself was saved - the gospel of the UNcircumcision - that God then began to show mercy toward both, UNcircumcised in heart Jews, and UNcircumcised in the flesh Gentiles WITHOUT distinction, as laid out by Him through this new Apostle, in passages such as Rom. 2-4, Galatians.

That laid out, it is not Jew and Gentile He is saving now, but both in Uncircumcision. It is failure to note this key disctinction that throws these things off as it does.

Key to it all is striving to arrive at a firm grasp of Rom. 9-11. In fact, Covenant Theology arose out of a failure to heed the Spirit's words through this new Apostle there, summarized by him in 11:25-27.

If that offends some, as it surely will no matter how worded, stand in line; its been doing so ever since it's Apostle was first hounded for same.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

Danoh · Sep 1, 2013

Dispy, are you the brother I used to refer to as El, elsewhere?

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

Anaphero · Sep 1, 2013

Dispy,

I thank you for expounding further on the different schools of Dispensational thought! Last night while doing some research I stumbled upon the fact that there were different views as to when the Church began. I had not realized this beforehand and began to read a bit on it before I hit the rack. I will PM you shortly!

God Bless!

Danoh · Sep 1, 2013

I once read this long communication between students having to do with their attempt to get at the proper sense, or meaning, intended by Paul as to "rightly dividing the word of truth" 2 Tim. 2:15. Relying on the Greek every which way possible, together with various commentaries, in the end they all concluded they were no closer to a sense of Paul's intent than when they first began their project.

The following is similar - the resulting inability of being fed a steady diet of books supposedly about the Bible rather than a diet rich in principles about how to study Scritpure that they might then apply as they read through the various commentaries, etc.. Instead, all one finds is a continued, failed attempt to arrive at an answer through the very same type of reasoning most commentaries are based on - human viewpoint (the likes of men like Joel Finck and Richard Jordan often being more an exception, than the rule in their brand of reasoning).

paleoevangelical: How a Series of Mistakes Created Dispensationalist-Covenantalist Animosity

DanoEph. 4:16

Dispy · Sep 1, 2013

Danoh said:
Dispy, are you the brother I used to refer to as El, elsewhere?

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

I don't think so. I used to go under the username of BigD. Still do on the CARM forum.

Zeek · Sep 1, 2013

Dispy said:
The book of the Revelation is the fulfillment of OT prophecy pertaining to the nation of Israel. The Church, the Body of Christ, cannot be found in the book of the Revelation.

Hi...trying to follow your line of argument/understanding on this....because the ekklesia is predominant throughout Revelations, starting with the 7 congregations mentioned in chap 1...which are all part of the Body of Messiah.

Rev 1:29 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the (congregations)/churches.

Later we read. 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the (congregations)/churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

This shows me that both the start and the finish of the book of Revelation deal specifically with the Body as exemplified with how the Spirit instructs the 7 congregations initially mentioned....a blue-print for the whole Body?

Maybe I'm missing something?

Danoh · Sep 2, 2013

Dispy said:
I don't think so. I used to go under the username of BigD. Still do on the CARM forum.

Was wondering because he emphasizes Stam's writings, had apparantly known Stam, emphasizes the Greek in many of his posts, and offers to send others literature. Your posts do emphasize the Greek more though, and you appear a bit chearier, so I wondering.

By the way, if you don't mind; how did you come to both know of as well as embrace the Mid Acts Perspective?

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

Dispy · Sep 2, 2013

Danoh said:
Was wondering because he emphasizes Stam's writings, had apparantly known Stam, emphasizes the Greek in many of his posts, and offers to send others literature. Your posts do emphasize the Greek more though, and you appear a bit chearier, so I wondering.

By the way, if you don't mind; how did you come to both know of as well as embrace the Mid Acts Perspective?

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

It was Pastor Stam that introduced me to the mid-Acts dispensational position.

I was reared and educated in a major denominational church and school. I read (studied) my Bible daily as instructed. The more I studied my Bible the more confused I became. The Bible became a contradictiory book, with the OT beginning to read like a fairy tale, and my pastor and teachers could not reconcile what I seemly thought were contradictions. They could only give me church doctrine answers to my questions, which did not answer my questions.
Therefore, I quit reading my Bible for fear of going crazy not being able to understand it. Also I searched other churches for answers and got basically the same type answers. Therefore, I gave up on all churches for about 15 years.

It wasn't until circumstances brought me to a small church in South Chicago where Pastor Stam was filling in being they had no pastor. It was there I heard my first dispensational sermon.

Pastor Stam was beginning a series on the book Acts. He did an overview of the book. In that one sermon he answered all the questions of my youth without me asking one question. I sat dumbfounded as he opened up the entire book to my understanding. What I thought were contratictions were not that at all, but a transition from the doctrine of Law to the doctrine of Grace.

My problem was that I tried to live both doctrines at the same time, but could not do it.

I am so grateful to that man and feel blessed in getting to know him personally. I have all his writings.

Dispy · Sep 2, 2013

BigD said:
The book of the Revelation is the fulfillment of OT prophecy pertaining to the nation of Israel. The Church, the Body of Christ, cannot be found in the book of the Revelation.

Zeek said:
Hi...trying to follow your line of argument/understanding on this....because the ekklesia is predominant throughout Revelations, starting with the 7 congregations mentioned in chap 1...which are all part of the Body of Messiah.

Rev 1:29 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the (congregations)/churches.

Later we read. 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the (congregations)/churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

This shows me that both the start and the finish of the book of Revelation deal specifically with the Body as exemplified with how the Spirit instructs the 7 congregations initially mentioned....a blue-print for the whole Body?

Maybe I'm missing something?

Yes the word "church" is mentioned many times in the book of the revelation. The meaning of the word is meeting of any type of group. It can be a church, or even a general meeting of persons.

From OT Scriptures we learn that Israel must endure two things prior of the establishment of the kingdom upon the earth. First the must endure the 7 year Tribulation period of Daniel 9, and the Jesus must suffer the many things of Isaiah 53.

The Church, the Body of Christ is not Israel, or spiritual Israel. Israel is God's special/favorite people, but they are presently in the same "set aside" (slumbering eyes) condition as the set aside Gentiles were back at the Tower of Babel in Gen. 11. Paul explains this clearly in Romans 11:7-12, 25.

When God gave Israel slumbering eyes, He raised up Saul/Paul to usher in this present dispensation of Grace in which He made a "new creation" known as "the Body of Christ" will consists of Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction and not under the Law.

The Church, the Body of Christ will not endure the Tribulation (cf. 1 Thess. 5:9), and will be raptured to heaven prior to the events mentioned in the book of the Revelation.

The Church, the Body of Christ is universal. The 7 churches in the book of Revelation are 7 Jewish Churches that will be during the events mentioned in Revelation. We know they are Jewish Churches because of the phrase "l know they works". Works are always connected to the nation of Israel.

Further, candlesticks and angels are never mentions with the Church, the Body of Christ.

Hope this is helpful.

Looking forward to your response.

prov1810 · Sep 2, 2013

Dispy said:
We know they are Jewish Churches because of the phrase "l know they works". Works are always connected to the nation of Israel.

1 Corinthians 12:6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

1 Corinthians 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

2 Corinthians 4:12 So death works in us, but life in you.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Ephesians 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,

Colossians 1:29 For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.

1 Timothy 2:10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.

1 Timothy 5:10 having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.

1 Timothy 6:18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 each mans work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each mans work. If any mans work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any mans work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 16:10 Now if Timothy comes, see that he is with you without cause to be afraid, for he is doing the Lords work, as I also am.

1 Corinthians 16:16 that you also be in subjection to such men and to everyone who helps in the work and labors.

2 Corinthians 8:6 So we urged Titus that as he had previously made a beginning, so he would also complete in you this gracious work as well.

Galatians 6:4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.

Ephesians 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

Philippians 2:12-13 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Philippians 2:30 because he came close to death for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was deficient in your service to me.

Colossians 1:10 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,

1 Thessalonians 1:3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

1 Thessalonians 5:13 and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another.

2 Thessalonians 1:11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,

2 Thessalonians 2:17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

2 Timothy 2:21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Dispy · Sep 2, 2013

prov1810 said:
1 Corinthians 12:6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

1 Corinthians 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

2 Corinthians 4:12 So death works in us, but life in you.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Ephesians 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,

Colossians 1:29 For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.

1 Timothy 2:10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.

1 Timothy 5:10 having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.

1 Timothy 6:18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 each mans work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each mans work. If any mans work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any mans work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 16:10 Now if Timothy comes, see that he is with you without cause to be afraid, for he is doing the Lords work, as I also am.

1 Corinthians 16:16 that you also be in subjection to such men and to everyone who helps in the work and labors.

2 Corinthians 8:6 So we urged Titus that as he had previously made a beginning, so he would also complete in you this gracious work as well.

Galatians 6:4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.

Ephesians 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

Philippians 2:12-13 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Philippians 2:30 because he came close to death for the work of Christ, risking his life to complete what was deficient in your service to me.

Colossians 1:10 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,

1 Thessalonians 1:3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

1 Thessalonians 5:13 and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another.

2 Thessalonians 1:11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,

2 Thessalonians 2:17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

2 Timothy 2:21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Works, under the Law, were always required of those in Israel to demonstrate their FAITH.

In this dispensation of Grace, one is saved by FAITH alone in the Cross work of Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-4) for their salvation.

We are saved unto good works (cf. Eph. 2:10).

prov1810 · Sep 2, 2013

God's household is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (Eph. 2:19-20).

Dispy said:
Even thought Paul is writing to member of the Church, the Body of Christ, I do believe that God's household is His entire creation. All that is revealed to us is based on what the Apostles and prophets spoke of.

This passage is about the church. (Eph. 2:19-22) So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

We are fellow citizens in one household with the Old Testament saints. There is no distinction between "earthly" and "heavenly" peoples in the eternal state. I believe that Paul's metaphorical building, built on apostles and prophets, is realized in John's literal building, which bears the names of apostles and patriarchs. The Jewish remnant will dwell with their elect fathers in the heavenly city, as the kings of Israel rested with their fathers in the earth. They are one people. And we are fellow citizens.

prov1810 · Sep 2, 2013

Dispy said:
Works, under the Law, were always required of those in Israel to demonstrate their FAITH.

In this dispensation of Grace, one is saved by FAITH alone in the Cross work of Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-4) for their salvation.

We are saved unto good works (cf. Eph. 2:10).

Jewish and gentile believers are saved by the same savior in the same way.

There is nothing in Rev 1 to indicate that these are "Jewish churches". Paul evangelized the church at Ephesus and lived there for three years. If there were Jews among the members of these churches, that doesn't make them "Jewish churches".

Danoh · Sep 2, 2013

Both are saved on the basis of the Lord's finished work on the Cross, true, but Israel entered into a Covenant with God at Sinai wherein they agreed to demonstrate their faith through works done in faith (in contrast to works that were merely an outward profession). This is illustrated in Deut. 6:24, 25, Matt. 5:20, Rom. 2:25-29 and is referred to as "the law of righteousness" in Rom. 9:32
, "the law for righteousness" in Rom. 10:4, and "the righteousness which is of the law" in verse 5.

Romans, especially 9-11, explains how that God, knowing that Israel would once more fail to keep that system of works done in faith, had planned, not only to set His plans for the Earth through that nation aside once more, albeit, temoporarily, but had planned a purpose among the Gentiles directly, under Grace, rather than directly through Israel under the Law (now on hold til the fulness of this purpose among the Gentiles is complete).

In this age, Israel is just another, lost, in UNcircumcision nation. A Jew today has to approach God via Paul's UNcircumcision gospel.

Study that principle out and the two principles - Israel's "by faith" and the Gentiles' "through faith" Rom. 3:30, not only becomes clear, but clears up all the above as to the difference in the works of each (Israel, in contrast to the Body).

Danoh
Eph. 4:16

prov1810 · Sep 2, 2013

Danoh said:
Israel entered into a Covenant with God at Sinai wherein they agreed to demonstrate their faith through works done in faith (in contrast to works that were merely an outward profession).

I understand. But Dispy is connecting this with the seven churches of Revelation.

Dispy · Sep 2, 2013

BigD said:
Even thought Paul is writing to member of the Church, the Body of Christ, I do believe that God's household is His entire creation. All that is revealed to us is based on what the Apostles and prophets spoke of.

prov1810 said:
God's household is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (Eph. 2:19-20).

We know from scripture that God set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel (Gen. 11).

We know from Romans 11:7-12, 25 that God gave Israel temporary slumbering eyes (temporary setting Israel aside), (no longer considering Israel His special/favorite people).

From these two set aside people God created "the one new man" of Ephesians 2:18, i.e. the Church, the Body of Christ. The one new man consists of believing former set aside people that placed their FAITH ALONE in the Cross work (death, burial, and resurrection - 1 Cor. 15:1-4) of Christ, the Body of Christ. There is now no distinction between the Jew and Gentile (cf. Rom. 10:12, Gal. 3:18).

prov1810 said:
This passage is about the church. (Eph. 2:19-22) So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of Gods household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Yes, this passage is about the Church, the Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing without distinction, and not under the Law. We are all fellow members of the household of God and built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets.

Jesus Christ is the corner stone for in which that householdis built.

prov1810 said:
We are fellow citizens in one household with the Old Testament saints. There is no distinction between "earthly" and "heavenly" peoples in the eternal state. I believe that Paul's metaphorical building, built on apostles and prophets, is realized in John's literal building, which bears the names of apostles and patriarchs. The Jewish remnant will dwell with their elect fathers in the heavenly city, as the kings of Israel rested with their fathers in the earth. They are one people. And we are fellow citizens.

There is a vast difference between the OT saints that were promised an eternal earthly kingdom (Jer. 23:5) and members of the Body of Christ who are promised an eternal heavenly home (cf. 2 Cor. 5:1).

Dispy · Sep 2, 2013

BigD said:
Works, under the Law, were always required of those in Israel to demonstrate their FAITH.

In this dispensation of Grace, one is saved by FAITH alone in the Cross work of Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-4) for their salvation.

We are saved unto good works (cf. Eph. 2:10).[/QUOTE

prov1810 said:

Jewish and gentile believers are saved by the same savior in the same way.

There is nothing in Rev 1 to indicate that these are "Jewish churches". Paul evangelized the church at Ephesus and lived there for three years. If there were Jews among the members of these churches, that doesn't make them "Jewish churches".

Click to expand...

It is true that Jewish and Gentile believers are saved by the same savior, but not in the same manner.

Since the fall of man, God was gracious in providing man with a means by which one could be reconciled back to God. It was strickly base on FAITH. FAITH in believing/doing what God required at that point in time of human history.

Under the Law, Jewish citizens had to do the deed/works of the Law, by FAITH in order for their sins to be covered. During that time if one that was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God of Israel, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Civil, Moral, and Ceremonial Laws of Moses. (In the OT one cannot even find the name Jesus.)

In this present dispensation of Grace, all one needs to do is place their FAITH alone in the Cross work of Christ for their salvation.

Zeek · Sep 2, 2013

Dispy said:
Yes the word "church" is mentioned many times in the book of the revelation. The meaning of the word is meeting of any type of group. It can be a church, or even a general meeting of persons.

Understood.

From OT Scriptures we learn that Israel must endure two things prior of the establishment of the kingdom upon the earth. First the must endure the 7 year Tribulation period of Daniel 9, and the Jesus must suffer the many things of Isaiah 53.

Not sure how you think Dan 9 has already occured?
(no need for massive explanation, just a short note I will do the homework

)

The Church, the Body of Christ is not Israel, or spiritual Israel. Israel is God's special/favorite people, but they are presently in the same "set aside" (slumbering eyes) condition as the set aside Gentiles were back at the Tower of Babel in Gen. 11. Paul explains this clearly in Romans 11:7-12, 25.

Ok...important point I think...I wouldn't go so far to say that Israel are G-ds favourite people...His testimony about them is often not that favourable...what comes across is His loving faithfulness and commitment to them despite themselves.

When God gave Israel slumbering eyes, He raised up Saul/Paul to usher in this present dispensation of Grace in which He made a "new creation" known as "the Body of Christ" will consists of Jews and Gentiles on equal footing, without distinction and not under the Law.

Ok...I'm not into the dispensation stuff, but I get your drift.

The Church, the Body of Christ will not endure the Tribulation (cf. 1 Thess. 5:9), and will be raptured to heaven prior to the events mentioned in the book of the Revelation.

I simply believe that when the tribulation comes, Believers will find the love and grace of G-d to be in it, endure it and be faithful unto death...I do not buy into the idea of being whisked away...but that is another discussion, I can still follow your points for now.

The Church, the Body of Christ is universal. The 7 churches in the book of Revelation are 7 Jewish Churches that will be during the events mentioned in Revelation. We know they are Jewish Churches because of the phrase "l know they works". Works are always connected to the nation of Israel.

Ok...now I can see how you arrive at the churches being Jewish..but I can't work out this idea about 'works' in this context...if they were Believers, they would be accutely aware that works were not salvic, but indicative of the work of the Spirit within a person.

Further, candlesticks and angels are never mentions with the Church, the Body of Christ.

Sounds tenuous.

Hope this is helpful.

Yes, thanks...appreciate your response, helps me grasp things a little better, even if I find some of the things you present outside the borders of my present tent of faith.

Dispy · Sep 2, 2013

Danoh said:
Israel entered into a Covenant with God at Sinai wherein they agreed to demonstrate their faith through works done in faith (in contrast to works that were merely an outward profession).

prov1810 said:

I understand. But Dispy is connecting this with the seven churches of Revelation.

Click to expand...

The Church, the Body of Christ will have been raptured to heaven prior to the resumption events in the book of the Revelation. The dispensation of Grace will have ended, the prophecies pertaining, and the Tribulation will resume from the point whey they were interrupted. Therefor, the Church, the Body of Christ, cannot be found in Revelation. The Law will again be in effect, and 144,000 sealed Jews will bring the gospel of the kingdom to the world. Untold numbers will be saved (cf. Rev. 7:4-15.)

Israel and the Church

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Follower of Messiah, Israel advocate and Zionist

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