Is there a break in Daniel's 70 weeks? (Daniel 9:26)

Anto9us said:

"I am very interested to see that two-thirds of the participants in this sub-forum view the end times dispensationally, but about three-fourth of the posts are anti-dispensational. "

It's the INTENSITY of the hatred of Futurism, Biblewriter - the maniacal DOUBLETHINK of the anti-dispies who can see BOTH Margaret Macdonald and the Jesuits Ribera and De La Cunza as the "evil origins" of Dispensationalism - the crazed notions that Futurists have never read the Bible but have swallowed unthinkingly the rhetoric of the Left Behind fiction novels...

well, it is as you say concerning the result of the polls

watermelon watermelon watermelon rind
look on the scoreboard and see who's behind

IT is a good point by Bible2 that "cut off" can mean both being killed or cutting a covenant on Messiah's point -- but it is all the same Point in time - Messiah's death - he did not bring in a new covenant by turning water into wine at the beginning of his ministry, but by shedding His blood at the end of it

as for READING THE BIBLE -- no one has seriously looked at the Anointing in verse 24 being of a place - the Holy of Holies; and yes, that is something of the 70 weeks purpose that Jesus did not do - He did not anoint Himself, which is not what is being spoken of, He did not anoint a holy of holies -- look at the words -- holy of holies -- look at it in the Greek Septuagint -- look at the two Hebrew same words side by side - look at Young's literal transalation - look at Darby's - look at the preponderance of versions where Most Holy PLACE is number one translation and "holy 'one' " is a long shot

"to anoint the Most Holy" in the KJV and NKJV is the ONLY translation that even leaves a chinaman's chance at saying this is the anointing of the Messiah - and that is by mistranslating and leaving off the end of "hagion hagione" as Septuagint has it

uh

yeah

eight to four

what inning is it?

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Yeah...well you're a chinaman...because the whole subject is messiah!!! You have to totally disregard it. Mesisah is the anointed one. So you're really not accepting the passage for what it says.

Kinda funny that when God sends Peter to preach to the Gentile Cornelius...Peter says it was the Messiah!!! Acts 10:38:
38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Are you in China yet?

What happens when you add 2/3 to 3/4?

ebedmelech said in post 118:

When it comes to eschatological views dispensationlism has missed the boat almost entirely.

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Dispensationalism has a correct eschatology in the sense that it's futurist. But it's important to always distinguish dispensationalism from futurism per se. For futurism per se is correct, because the tribulation and 2nd-coming prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 and Matthew 24 have never been fulfilled. But dispensationalism is mistaken, because it tries to set up a mutual exclusiveness between the church and Israel, whereas the Bible shows that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7). Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

~

Also, dispensationalism is mistaken because it tries to teach a pre-tribulation rapture, whereas the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

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ebedmelech said in post 119:

Well Zeke, there is the future coming of Christ for sure. The view that doesn't hold to that is "full preterism"...I think that really misses the boat because they hold that all is fulfilled. I don't ascribe to that at all.

Jesus will return!!!

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Amen.

But why does partial preterism believe in a future 2nd coming but not a future tribulation, when:

1. The 2nd coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);

2. The 2nd coming and rapture can't occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the tribulation and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and

3. At Jesus' 2nd coming to rapture and marry the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?

Partial preterism might answer: "It's obvious that the 2nd coming hasn't happened yet". And that's right. But full preterism nonetheless still (mistakenly) claims that the 2nd coming, resurrection, and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it's only allegorical, not literal" argument that partial preterism uses to (mistakenly) claim that all the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting that the 2nd coming, resurrection of the church, and rapture haven't yet occurred, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting that the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 haven't yet occurred either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?

Bible2 said:

Dispensationalism has a correct eschatology in the sense that it's futurist...

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Dispensationalism is erroneous on the passage of Daniel 9:24-27. That passage is about Messiah and the destruction of the sanctuary. The view erroneously inserts:

*antichrist

*A third temple

*Armageddon

None of which is in the passage. It's all contrived.

Bible2 said:

But why does partial preterism believe in a future 2nd coming but not a future tribulation, when:

1. The 2nd coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);

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This is an erroneous view...that's why. It's a rapture...but it's the last day.

Bible2 said:

2. The 2nd coming and rapture can't occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the tribulation and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and

3. At Jesus' 2nd coming to rapture and marry the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?

Partial preterism might answer: "It's obvious that the 2nd coming hasn't happened yet". And that's right. But full preterism nonetheless still (mistakenly) claims that the 2nd coming, resurrection, and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it's only allegorical, not literal" argument that partial preterism uses to (mistakenly) claim that all the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting that the 2nd coming, resurrection of the church, and rapture haven't yet occurred, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54, and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting that the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 haven't yet occurred either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?

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You're so wrong on many fronts.

*Tribulation involves serving the Lord, Paul tells us that as well as Jesus..."In the world you WILL have tribulation."

*There's no where where the scripture speaks to taking the church away. NO WHERE!

*1 Corinthians 15 is about resurrection...when is that? THE LAST DAY.

Jesus had every opportunity to speak of a rapture taking the church from the world...but what did He say? Have you read John 6? Listen to how many times Jesus says "THE LAST DAY":

John 6:39, 40:
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:43
43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:54
54 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

He had another chance to correct Mary at Lazarus' raising from the dead.
John 11:24
Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

Did Jesus say "just a sec Mary, I'm coming before the last day to get my church?"? No! This is what Jesus said...John 11:25:
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

No rapture again! It's on the LAST DAY!

ebedmelech said in post 124:

There's no where where the scripture speaks to taking the church away.

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Note that it hasn't been said that the rapture will take the church away. What was said in post 123 was that at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

ebedmelech said in post 124:

1 Corinthians 15 is about resurrection...when is that? THE LAST DAY.

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Note that it hasn't been said that the resurrection won't be on the last day. It just won't be on an amillennial last day. For the last days began in the first century AD, with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2), and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8), of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

ebedmelech said in post 124:

John 6:39, 40:
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

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Amen. And see also, regarding unbelievers:

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

But in John 6:39-40 and John 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera, G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (e.g. see the Greek of 2 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Peter 3:8, and John 8:56). John 6:39-48 and John 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Revelation 20:5).

When Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the bodily resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be bodily resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

ebedmelech said in post 124:

No rapture again! It's on the LAST DAY!

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Note that the resurrection being on the last day doesn't contradict that there will be a rapture. For the English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in the future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

ebedmelech said:

Dispensationalism is erroneous on the passage of Daniel 9:24-27. That passage is about Messiah and the destruction of the sanctuary. The view erroneously inserts:

*antichrist

*A third temple

*Armageddon

None of which is in the passage. It's all contrived.

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26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


...after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off: 33 AD


...the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: 70 AD


Verse 26 shows a time span of about 37 years.

The prophecy, which is chronological, has run to the time of 70 AD, at yet the 70th week has not begun. It doesn't begin until verse 27.

The 69th week ended with Messiah The prince.

That event took place on "palm Sunday". 5 days later, after the 69th week Messiah was cut off.

Messiah was cut off AFTER the 69th week.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

"he" is the last person mentioned, which is the prince who is to come.

The prince who is to come confirms a covenant for 7 years.

The prince who is to come puts an end to sacrifice and offering.

The events of the 70th week come after verse 26.

The events of the 70th week comes after 70 AD.

The events of the 70th week involves a temple and sacrifices.

In 70 AD the city and sanctuary were destroyed, yet in the 70 week we see another Temple and sacrifices taking place.


Daniel 70 weeks prophecy involves:

Messiah the Prince.

The prince who is to come.

A temple that was destroyed in 70 AD.

A new temple that was built sometime after 70 AD that involves animal sacrifices.

It is interesting to note that Jesus teaches us in Matthew 24, that the reader must understand Daniel, to understand what He is teaching in the Olivet Discourse.


JLB

JLB777 said:

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.


...after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off: 33 AD


...the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: 70 AD


Verse 26 shows a time span of about 37 years.

The prophecy, which is chronological, has run to the time of 70 AD, at yet the 70th week has not begun. It doesn't begin until verse 27.

The 69th week ended with Messiah The prince.

That event took place on "palm Sunday". 5 days later, after the 69th week Messiah was cut off.

Messiah was cut off AFTER the 69th week.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

"he" is the last person mentioned, which is the prince who is to come.

The prince who is to come confirms a covenant for 7 years.

The prince who is to come puts an end to sacrifice and offering.

The events of the 70th week come after verse 26.

The events of the 70th week comes after 70 AD.

The events of the 70th week involves a temple and sacrifices.

In 70 AD the city and sanctuary were destroyed, yet in the 70 week we see another Temple and sacrifices taking place.


Daniel 70 weeks prophecy involves:

Messiah the Prince.

The prince who is to come.

A temple that was destroyed in 70 AD.

A new temple that was built sometime after 70 AD that involves animal sacrifices.

It is interesting to note that Jesus teaches us in Matthew 24, that the reader must understand Daniel, to understand what He is teaching in the Olivet Discourse.


JLB

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That is the dispensational approach to Daniel 9:24-27...and no doubt what you think is correct.

Let's point some things out about Daniel 9:27:
27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;

Matthew 26:26-28
26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

So we have Jesus making a covenant, which is the New Covenant...and when is this? Right at the end of Jesus 3.5 year ministry! After this He will be crucified as the sacrifice for sin...IT'S THE MIDDLE OF THE 70th WEEK!

Continuing Daniel 9 27:
and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”
The wing of abominations (plural), is every sacrifice the Jews offered after Christ! When Christ died the veil of the temple was ripped in half as Matthew 27:51 says:
51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

That signaled then end of sacrifice and offering FOREVER. Any sacrifices after that are abominable to God.

Titus is the one that makes the complete destruction of the sanctuary and the city...He was "the prince to come". He was the son of Emperor Vespasian and certainly a prince. He later became Emperor.

Moreover let's look at the point of Daniel 9:24:
“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

What did Jesus say on the cross? John 19:30 gives us some insight to the phrase "to finish the transgression":
30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

That's the "transgression" that was finished! Jesus KNEW what he came to do...WHICH IS EVERY BIT OF DANIEL 9:24.

That ended the 70 weeks.

You can go with scripture or what you've been taught. I was taught that too...except I questioned it FOR A LONG TIME before I decided I needed to back up and let the scripture speak.

Houly said:

Whether you are a preterist that believes Daniel's 70th 'seven' (week of 7 years) was fulfilled in 70 AD or a futurist that believes Daniel's 70th week is yet to be fulfilled, you must place a break in Daniel 9:26, between the end of the 69th week in 33 AD (when Jesus Christ was cut off) and the beginning of the 70th.

If you do not accept a break, where do you place the beginning and end of Daniel's 70 weeks?

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The prophecy concerns the desolation and restoration of Israel. The prophecy was given in yr 1 of Darius, and the first year after that, Cyrus decreed the return to Jerusalem which was a Jubilee year, the year after this was the 50th, a year of replanting. The Jews returned and sacrificed to the Lord at a rebuilt altar. This was the end of the first 7 weeks (586 to 537 BC -- ie. total destruction by Nebucadnezzar up to the return).

Later Nehemiah rebuilt the walls, but the city was not right before the Lord, when he returned a second time he rededicated the poeple to the Lord and the Covenant with God/Moses,and restabilishing a Godly community (Restoration of the City of God), this year was about 433 BC, beginning the 62 weeks.

The coming of the Messiah to the temple as a baby ended the 62 weeks. Christ was consecrated at the temple by the priesthood and dedicated to the Lord by ritual and by prophetic fulfillment. The Messiah had arrived in the city. A new age began.

Soon following the 62 "and after" (Dan 9:25) Christ was crucified (cut off and no more) beginning the desolation again, which was fulfilled again in 70 AD according to Christ prophecy.

The final week of the 70 weeks begins when the antichrist makes a covenant with many 'a covenant great' (Daniel 9:26-27)

this is a hard one.
I am not as wise as some of u n this regard for sure,
so I will learn from your debates

but from my fairly new perspective
I have a few questions.

we need to break it down and go over each point separately,
because when we each go over the whole,
each from our own perspective, all at one time,
nothing ever gets accomplished.

so let's slow I down.
there are really only a few questions to work through

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

ok, this already happened for sure.
anyone disagree?
we know the beginning point and the end point.

we even know that this means the birth of Christ
because that's how the traveling magi knew when to look for Christ
and to deliver the gifts, which were prob in the employ of Daniel
and passed down through the years until it was time for Messiah as Gabriel had said
by calculating it based on years...
7+62, x7 years = Christ's birth

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

we already learned that the length of time was given as 7 + 62
and just in v26 we are told of the 62 part of that length which is about Jesus
anyone disagee?

so, we have a total of 70 weeks determined
we have a 7 + 62 length, the 62 about Jesus
but we don't yet have an explanation for the 7 that goes with it
and all that gets us to 69.

we still have that 70th as well.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

if this is about Jesus, and im not saying either way
wouldn't this be the 7 part of the 7+62
and not the 70th?

im confused???

ebedmelech said:

That is the dispensational approach to Daniel 9:24-27...and no doubt what you think is correct.

Let's point some things out about Daniel 9:27:
27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;

Matthew 26:26-28
26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

So we have Jesus making a covenant, which is the New Covenant...and when is this? Right at the end of Jesus 3.5 year ministry! After this He will be crucified as the sacrifice for sin...IT'S THE MIDDLE OF THE 70th WEEK!

Continuing Daniel 9 27:
and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”
The wing of abominations (plural), is every sacrifice the Jews offered after Christ! When Christ died the veil of the temple was ripped in half as Matthew 27:51 says:
51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

That signaled then end of sacrifice and offering FOREVER. Any sacrifices after that are abominable to God.

Titus is the one that makes the complete destruction of the sanctuary and the city...He was "the prince to come". He was the son of Emperor Vespasian and certainly a prince. He later became Emperor.

Moreover let's look at the point of Daniel 9:24:
“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

What did Jesus say on the cross? John 19:30 gives us some insight to the phrase "to finish the transgression":
30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

That's the "transgression" that was finished! Jesus KNEW what he came to do...WHICH IS EVERY BIT OF DANIEL 9:24.

That ended the 70 weeks.

You can go with scripture or what you've been taught. I was taught that too...except I questioned it FOR A LONG TIME before I decided I needed to back up and let the scripture speak.

Click to expand...

I just pointed out what the scriptures says.

Are the Jews still transgressing?

Yes there are.

What was finished was the Law.

Until the Jews accept Jesus as Messiah, the transgression wil continue.

LOL.


JLB

JLB777 said:

I just pointed out what the scriptures says.

Are the Jews still transgressing?

Yes there are.

What was finished was the Law.

Until the Jews accept Jesus as Messiah, the transgression wil continue.

LOL.


JLB

Click to expand...

No. You pointed out what you have been taught. The passage says "finish THE transgression"...it was a specific act, which was the crucifixion of Christ.

Another reason your view of the passage is mistaken.

Houly said in post 132:

The AofD is definitely an object (or person) set up (or standing) in the temple.

Click to expand...

That's right.

In Matthew 24:15, Jesus is referring to Daniel 11:31, in which the "abomination of desolation" was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after "they" have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

Houly said in post 132:

It is not the Crucifixion.

Click to expand...

Amen.

For the church is commanded to flee Judaea into the mountains when it sees the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15-16), whereas the church was commanded to remain in Jerusalem after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection (Luke 24:49,52, Acts 1:4 to 2:47). The church even continued to worship in the temple (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

Regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), note that this doesn't have to mean first century Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

ebedmelech said:

No. You pointed out what you have been taught. The passage says "finish THE transgression"...it was a specific act, which was the crucifixion of Christ.

Another reason your view of the passage is mistaken.

Click to expand...

The transgressions are not finished.

The Jews are going to build another Temple, with animal sacrifices.

The is only one event that will cause them to be finished with this transgression of rejecting Jesus as Messiah.

This event will occur on the LAST DAY of the 70th week.


10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

Then the transgression will be finished.

Jesus was cut off AFTER the 69th week, yet before the 70th week begins.

Jesus was cut off outside the city.

Jesus sacrifice includes Gentiles.

Jesus was not crucified within the time-frame of the 70 weeks!

The 70th week doesn't start till after the year 70 Ad as the structure of the prophecy is clearly laid out.

Your "theology" has been weighed and found wanting, brother.


JLB

JLB777 said:

The transgressions are not finished.

Click to expand...

Read it again it says "the transgression" (not plural). That was the crucifixion which is the only act that does what all of what Daniel 9:24 says.

JLB777 said:

The Jews are going to build another Temple, with animal sacrifices.

Click to expand...

Spoken like a true "Left Behinder"...but try as you might you can't find a temple in spoken of except Herod's Temple in the NT. All other references to a temple are the church or the temple in heaven of Revelation.

JLB777 said:

The is only one event that will cause them to be finished with this transgression of rejecting Jesus as Messiah.

This event will occur on the LAST DAY of the 70th week.

Click to expand...

No. Do you ever read Hebrews?
Hebrews 9:24-26:
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

JLB777 said:

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

Then the transgression will be finished.

Click to expand...

That's not at all what this passage is saying at all. First you have to realize who Jerusalem is. Paul tells us that in Galatians 4:26:
26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

Galatians 4:21-31 sets that record straight.

JLB777 said:

Jesus was cut off AFTER the 69th week, yet before the 70th week begins.

Jesus was cut off outside the city.

Jesus sacrifice includes Gentiles.

Jesus was not crucified within the time-frame of the 70 weeks!

The 70th week doesn't start till after the year 70 Ad as the structure of the prophecy is clearly laid out.

Your "theology" has been weighed and found wanting, brother.


JLB

Click to expand...

Not when you read the scriptures properly. The 70th week has been over. Peter asked Jesus how often should we forgive our brother?...what was Jesus answer? He said "seventy times seven" which is 490. Now why do you think Jesus said that?

Because He KNEW what He had come to do...He came to do what Hebrews 9:24-26 says he did. Which I said above.

What's "weighed and found wanting" is your "Left Behind theology" loaded with dispensationalism.

Why did Jesus say "It is finished"? He knew he had accomplished Daniel 9:24.

Why does Hebrews 1:3 say?:
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
This is because Jesus did what Daniel 9:24 says...which ended the 70th week.

Originally Posted by JLB777

That's not at all what this passage is saying at all. First you have to realize who Jerusalem is. Paul tells us that in Galatians 4:26:
26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

Galatians 4:21-31 sets that record straight.

Click to expand...

Every eye seeing Him when He returns has nothing to do with Galatians 4, that says Jerusalem above is our mother.

Total misapplication of context.

Zechariah 12:10 is referring to the inhabitants of the earthly city of Jerusalem.

That is what the 70 weeks pertains to; your people and your holy city...


I don't believe in pre-trib Rapture.

your presumption is very evident in what you teach.

Pre-trib Rapture is a false doctrine.

You miss the basic elements of this prophecy starting with Cyrus, and your presumption runs wild all through the whole time frame.

Even the most basic elements of the prophecy you have failed to grasp.

• Jesus was cut off AFTER the 69th week, yet before the 70th week begins.

• Jesus was cut off outside the city.

• Jesus sacrifice includes Gentiles.

Jesus was not crucified within the time-frame of the 70 weeks!


You refuse to see the gap between the 7th week and the 62 weeks.

You have failed to see who started the prophetic clock.

You have failed to realize what Matthew 1:17 so clearly teaches.

Instead you use secular dates that are not shown in scripture to "come up with" your own understanding.

You can lean on your own understanding all you want, but as I have said, it has been weighed and found wanting.


JLB

Houly said:

Alright, the KJV translation for Daniel 9:27 ("for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate") sounds like the doing of Christ. The NIV translation I believe is right ("and at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation") sounds like the doing of an antichrist.

Click to expand...

No. To take the view you're taking you would be disregarding Daniel 9:24, which introduces what happens in the 70 weeks.

*The Jews "finish the transgression" by the crucifixion of Christ.

It is the death of Christ that does the rest...which is:

*to make an end of sin,

*to make atonement for iniquity,

*to bring in everlasting righteousness, (our righteousness is in Christ)

*to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Houly said:

In Matthew 24:15, in both KJV and NIV, I think Jesus makes clear that the second translation is right.

KJV: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)"

NIV: "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—"

The AofD is definitely an object (or person) set up (or standing) in the temple. It is not the Crucifixion. Does anyone disagree with that?

Click to expand...

No.

The AOD is an act...not a person. The phrase is relevant to the Jewish mind of that day. This was a previous act committed by Antiochus Epiphanes, when he slaughtered a pig on the alter as well as erected a statue of Jupiter in the temple. With this fresh in the mind of the disciples, Christ gives this as a sign of WHEN TO FLEE Jerusalem.

It's made clearer by Luke who says it this way in Luke 21:24:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

The AOD is accomplished when Romans enter the temple. They are Gentiles, and only the Levitical priesthood could enter the temple. They defiled the temple at that point, just as Antiochus Epiphanes did.

This event is relevant to the destruction of the temple. Which I don't see to be relevant to anything stated in Daniel 9:24 relevant to the 70 weeks.

Houly said:

I'm convinced that the Crucifixion (the "cut off") is immediately at the end of the 69th week, before the 70th week starts. The AofD is a distinct event, which occurs in the middle of the 70th week.

Click to expand...

Again...Daniel 9:24 sets the precedent for what is accomplished in the 70 weeks...which is the crucifixion.

The phrase on "the wing of abominations" (note the plural), refers to every sacrifice the Jews make after Christ to atone for sin.

That's what I see there.

Houly said:

Then that would be the midpoint of the 70th week. The AofD is "set up in the temple" at the midpoint of the 70th week by "he," who is the ruler/prince that confirms the seven-year covenant.

Is the AofD in Daniel 9 the same as in Daniel 12? I definitely think so.

"From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days." (Daniel 12:11)

Sacrifices are stopped and the AofD is set up at the same point: in the middle of the 70th week.

“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—" (Matthew 24:15)

Click to expand...

Daniel 9:24 tell us what is accomplished in the 70 weeks...the temple is not mentioned at all.

YLT
Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and
　
to anoint the holy of holies.
　
DBY
Seventy weeks are apportioned out upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make expiation for iniquity, and to bring in the righteousness of the ages, and to seal the vision and prophet, and
　
to anoint the holy of holies.
　
NASB
"Seventy *weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to *finish the transgression, to *make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and *prophecy and
　
to anoint the most holy place.
　
RSV
"Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and
　
to anoint a most holy place.
　
The idea that a Temple is "not mentioned" in the 70 weeks is nothing but a load of
PRET HOGWASH