Hijacking the Holy Land documentary (Moved to Gen Politics)

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conamer

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Great, give me the names of those books. While we wait for those titles have you been here: Isn't it true that Palestine was empty and inhabited by nomadic people? - Palestine Remembered
:wave:



a couple things to notice was agriculture was the main source of living there and it doesn't sound like it was all that sparsely populated. :sorry:mk
tulc(will now wait for the standard dismissal of any fact that doesn't agree with the propaganda) :D
Think-Israel
Let’s start at the early days and continue into the Ottoman period:

The historian James Parkes wrote: “During the first century after the Arab conquest [670-740 CE], the caliph and governors of Syria and the Holy Land ruled entirely over Christian and Jewish subjects. Apart from the Bedouin in the earliest days, the only Arabs west of the Jordan were the garrisons.”[3]

In year 985 the Arab writer Muqaddasi complained: “the mosque is empty of worshipers… The Jews constitute the majority of Jerusalem’s population” (The entire city of Jerusalem had only one mosque?). [4]

In 1377, Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable Arab historians, wrote: “Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel extended over 1400 years… It was the Jews who implanted the culture and customs of the permanent settlement”.[5]

In 1695-1696, the Dutch scholar and cartographer, Adriaan Reland (Hadriani Relandi) , wrote reports about visits to the Holy Land. (There are those who claim that he did not personally visit the Holy land but collected reports from other visitors.) He was fluent in Hebrew and Arabic. He documented visits to many locations. He writes: The names of settlements were mostly Hebrew, some Greek, and some Latin-Roman. No settlement had an original Muslim-Arab name with a historical root in its location. Most of the land was empty, desolate, and the inhabitants few in number and mostly concentrated in Jerusalem, Acco, Tzfat, Jaffa, Tiberius and Gaza. Most of the inhabitants were Jews and the rest Christians. There were few Muslims, mostly nomad Bedouins. The Arabs were predominantly Christians with a tiny minority of Muslims. In Jerusalem there were approximately 5000 people, mostly Jews and some Christians. In Nazareth there were approximately 700 people – all Christians. In Gaza there were approximately 550 people – half of them Jews and half Christians. Um-El-Phachem was a village of 10 families – all Christians. The only exception was Nablus with 120 Muslims from the Natsha family and approximately 70 Shomronites.[6]

In 1835 Alphonse de Lamartine wrote: “Outside the city of Jerusalem, we saw no living object, heard no living sound. . .a complete eternal silence reigns in the town, in the highways, in the country.”[7]

In 1844, William Thackeray writes about the road from Jaffa to Jerusalem: “Now the district is quite deserted, and you ride among what seem to be so many petrified waterfalls. We saw no animals moving among the stony brakes; scarcely even a dozen little birds in the whole course of the ride.”[8]

In 1857, the British consul in Palestine, James Finn, reported: “The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is that of a body of population.”[9]


In 1866, W.M. Thomson writes: “How melancholy is this utter desolation. Not a house, not a trace of inhabitants, not even shepherds, to relieve the dull monotony … Much of the country through which we have been rambling for a week appears never to have been inhabited, or even cultivated; and there are other parts, you say, still more barren.”[10]

In 1867, Mark Twain – Samuel Clemens, the famous author of “Huckleberry Finn” and “Tom Sawyer”, toured the Holy Land. This is how he described the land: “There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent; not for thirty miles in either direction… One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings … Nazareth is forlorn… Jericho lies a mouldering ruin… Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation… untenanted by any living creature… A desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds. A silent, mournful expanse. We never saw a human being on the whole route. There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”[11]

In 1874, Reverend Samuel Manning wrote: “But where were the inhabitants? This fertile plain, which might support an immense population, is almost a solitude…. Day by day we were to learn afresh the lesson now forced upon us, that the denunciations of ancient prophecy have been fulfilled to the very letter — “the land is left void and desolate and without inhabitants.” (Jeremiah, ch.44 v.22)[12]

In 1892, B. W. Johnson writes: “In the portion of the plain between Mount Carmel and Jaffa one sees but rarely a village or other sights of human life… A ride of half an hour more brought us to the ruins of the ancient city of Cæsarea, once a city of two hundred thousand inhabitants, and the Roman capital of Palestine, but now entirely deserted… I laid upon my couch at night, to listen to the moaning of the waves and to think of the desolation around us.”[13]

In 1913, a British report, by the Palestinian Royal Commission, quotes an account of the conditions on the coastal plain along the Mediterranean Sea: “The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track, suitable for transport by camels or carts. No orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached the [Jewish] Yabna village. Houses were mud. Schools did not exist. The western part toward the sea was almost a desert. The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many villages were deserted by their inhabitants.”

The name “Palestina” is a Latin-Roman name based on the Hebrew Biblical name of the ancient “Philistines” — “Plishtim” in Hebrew. The translation of this name to English is: “invaders”. The Philistines arrived from the Mediterranean islands near Greece and invaded the land about 4000 years ago . The Philistines are extinct since approximately 2000 years ago, and have no ancestral or historical relationship to Arabs. Before 1917, during the 400-years rule of the Ottoman empire, the Ottomans did not call the Holy Land “Palestina”. The British decided to renew this ancient name and called the land “Palestine”. The local Arabs never called themselves “Palestinians”, not even during the British mandate. Both Arab and British leaders referred to them only as “Arabs”. For example: The Hope-Simpson report[15] published by the British in 1930, contains the phrase “the number of Palestinian unemployed, whether Arab, Jew or other…”. “Palestinian” was used only as an adjective in reference to the location and also included Jews. The Arab inhabitants were always referred to as “Arabs”. The word “palestinians” does not appear anywhere in this report. “Palestinian Arabs”, “Palestinian Jews”, and “Palestinian Christians” were common terms. But, “Palestinians”, as a noun, before 1948, was not yet invented.

After 30 years of invasion, following the end of the British mandate and the declaration of the state of Israel in 1948, the Arabs recognized the fact that they invaded foreign land and invented for themselves a name in English — “Palestinians”. If the British were to call the land “New England”, and the local Arabs were to call themselves “English” would they automatically become English? It is important to emphasize that the concept of a “Palestinian” to describe the local Arab residents was invented by the Arabs AFTER the declaration of the state of Israel. This group of Arabs, who started calling themselves “the Palestinian nation” after 1948, does not have an original name in their native Arabic language.

Is there any nation in the world which does not have a name in its original native language? The Arabs who invaded the Holy Land do not have a name in their native Arabic language because they are not, and have never been, a unified group or a nation. Most of those Arabs cannot even pronounce the word “Palestinian”. They pronounce it “Falestinian”.

Historically, a “Falestinian” people never existed. The fact is that the Arabs, who now try to call themselves by the English name “Palestinians” and mis-pronounce it “Falestinians”, don’t even know what their name is in Arabic. Even Arab leaders and historians have admitted that a “Palestinian” people never existed. For example:

In 1937, the Arab leader Auni Bey Abdul Hadi told the Peel Commission: “There is no such country as Palestine. Palestine is a term the Zionists invented. Palestine is alien to us.”

In 1946, Princeton’s Arab professor of Middle East history, Philip Hitti, told the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry: “It’s common knowledge, there is no such thing as Palestine in history.“

In March 1977, Zahir Muhsein, an executive member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), said in an interview to the Dutch newspaper Trouw: “The ‘Palestinian people’ does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel.”

Joseph Farah, an Arab-American journalist, writes: “The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never. Land. Palestine has never existed as an autonomous entity.
 
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tulc

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Think-Israel
Let’s start at the early days and continue into the Ottoman period:

The historian James Parkes wrote: “During the first century after the Arab conquest [670-740 CE], the caliph and governors of Syria and the Holy Land ruled entirely over Christian and Jewish subjects. Apart from the Bedouin in the earliest days, the only Arabs west of the Jordan were the garrisons.”[3]

In year 985 the Arab writer Muqaddasi complained: “the mosque is empty of worshipers… The Jews constitute the majority of Jerusalem’s population” (The entire city of Jerusalem had only one mosque?). [4]

In 1377, Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable Arab historians, wrote: “Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel extended over 1400 years… It was the Jews who implanted the culture and customs of the permanent settlement”.[5]

In 1695-1696, the Dutch scholar and cartographer, Adriaan Reland (Hadriani Relandi) , wrote reports about visits to the Holy Land. (There are those who claim that he did not personally visit the Holy land but collected reports from other visitors.) He was fluent in Hebrew and Arabic. He documented visits to many locations. He writes: The names of settlements were mostly Hebrew, some Greek, and some Latin-Roman. No settlement had an original Muslim-Arab name with a historical root in its location. Most of the land was empty, desolate, and the inhabitants few in number and mostly concentrated in Jerusalem, Acco, Tzfat, Jaffa, Tiberius and Gaza. Most of the inhabitants were Jews and the rest Christians. There were few Muslims, mostly nomad Bedouins. The Arabs were predominantly Christians with a tiny minority of Muslims. In Jerusalem there were approximately 5000 people, mostly Jews and some Christians. In Nazareth there were approximately 700 people – all Christians. In Gaza there were approximately 550 people – half of them Jews and half Christians. Um-El-Phachem was a village of 10 families – all Christians. The only exception was Nablus with 120 Muslims from the Natsha family and approximately 70 Shomronites.[6]

In 1835 Alphonse de Lamartine wrote: “Outside the city of Jerusalem, we saw no living object, heard no living sound. . .a complete eternal silence reigns in the town, in the highways, in the country.”[7]

In 1844, William Thackeray writes about the road from Jaffa to Jerusalem: “Now the district is quite deserted, and you ride among what seem to be so many petrified waterfalls. We saw no animals moving among the stony brakes; scarcely even a dozen little birds in the whole course of the ride.”[8]

In 1857, the British consul in Palestine, James Finn, reported: “The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is that of a body of population.”[9]


In 1866, W.M. Thomson writes: “How melancholy is this utter desolation. Not a house, not a trace of inhabitants, not even shepherds, to relieve the dull monotony … Much of the country through which we have been rambling for a week appears never to have been inhabited, or even cultivated; and there are other parts, you say, still more barren.”[10]

In 1867, Mark Twain – Samuel Clemens, the famous author of “Huckleberry Finn” and “Tom Sawyer”, toured the Holy Land. This is how he described the land: “There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent; not for thirty miles in either direction… One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings … Nazareth is forlorn… Jericho lies a mouldering ruin… Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation… untenanted by any living creature… A desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds. A silent, mournful expanse. We never saw a human being on the whole route. There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”[11]

In 1874, Reverend Samuel Manning wrote: “But where were the inhabitants? This fertile plain, which might support an immense population, is almost a solitude…. Day by day we were to learn afresh the lesson now forced upon us, that the denunciations of ancient prophecy have been fulfilled to the very letter — “the land is left void and desolate and without inhabitants.” (Jeremiah, ch.44 v.22)[12]

In 1892, B. W. Johnson writes: “In the portion of the plain between Mount Carmel and Jaffa one sees but rarely a village or other sights of human life… A ride of half an hour more brought us to the ruins of the ancient city of Cæsarea, once a city of two hundred thousand inhabitants, and the Roman capital of Palestine, but now entirely deserted… I laid upon my couch at night, to listen to the moaning of the waves and to think of the desolation around us.”[13]

In 1913, a British report, by the Palestinian Royal Commission, quotes an account of the conditions on the coastal plain along the Mediterranean Sea: “The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track, suitable for transport by camels or carts. No orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached the [Jewish] Yabna village. Houses were mud. Schools did not exist. The western part toward the sea was almost a desert. The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many villages were deserted by their inhabitants.”

The name “Palestina” is a Latin-Roman name based on the Hebrew Biblical name of the ancient “Philistines” — “Plishtim” in Hebrew. The translation of this name to English is: “invaders”. The Philistines arrived from the Mediterranean islands near Greece and invaded the land about 4000 years ago . The Philistines are extinct since approximately 2000 years ago, and have no ancestral or historical relationship to Arabs. Before 1917, during the 400-years rule of the Ottoman empire, the Ottomans did not call the Holy Land “Palestina”. The British decided to renew this ancient name and called the land “Palestine”. The local Arabs never called themselves “Palestinians”, not even during the British mandate. Both Arab and British leaders referred to them only as “Arabs”. For example: The Hope-Simpson report[15] published by the British in 1930, contains the phrase “the number of Palestinian unemployed, whether Arab, Jew or other…”. “Palestinian” was used only as an adjective in reference to the location and also included Jews. The Arab inhabitants were always referred to as “Arabs”. The word “palestinians” does not appear anywhere in this report. “Palestinian Arabs”, “Palestinian Jews”, and “Palestinian Christians” were common terms. But, “Palestinians”, as a noun, before 1948, was not yet invented.

After 30 years of invasion, following the end of the British mandate and the declaration of the state of Israel in 1948, the Arabs recognized the fact that they invaded foreign land and invented for themselves a name in English — “Palestinians”. If the British were to call the land “New England”, and the local Arabs were to call themselves “English” would they automatically become English? It is important to emphasize that the concept of a “Palestinian” to describe the local Arab residents was invented by the Arabs AFTER the declaration of the state of Israel. This group of Arabs, who started calling themselves “the Palestinian nation” after 1948, does not have an original name in their native Arabic language.

Is there any nation in the world which does not have a name in its original native language? The Arabs who invaded the Holy Land do not have a name in their native Arabic language because they are not, and have never been, a unified group or a nation. Most of those Arabs cannot even pronounce the word “Palestinian”. They pronounce it “Falestinian”.

Historically, a “Falestinian” people never existed. The fact is that the Arabs, who now try to call themselves by the English name “Palestinians” and mis-pronounce it “Falestinians”, don’t even know what their name is in Arabic. Even Arab leaders and historians have admitted that a “Palestinian” people never existed. For example:

In 1937, the Arab leader Auni Bey Abdul Hadi told the Peel Commission: “There is no such country as Palestine. Palestine is a term the Zionists invented. Palestine is alien to us.”

In 1946, Princeton’s Arab professor of Middle East history, Philip Hitti, told the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry: “It’s common knowledge, there is no such thing as Palestine in history.“

In March 1977, Zahir Muhsein, an executive member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), said in an interview to the Dutch newspaper Trouw: “The ‘Palestinian people’ does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel.”

Joseph Farah, an Arab-American journalist, writes: “The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never. Land. Palestine has never existed as an autonomous entity.

Nice! Now THIS is the sort of answer I love! :thumbsup:
tulc(will come back after looking these up!) ;)
 
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jgarden

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No, it was a dessert waste land in the early 19th century until Israelis turned it into fertile land, that's when Islam became interested in that land.
If changing desert into a "fertile land" is the justification for forcing the Palestinians out, then the Israelis should be prepared to meet the same fate if and when the next group that comes along that claims that they can make even better use of the land!
 
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jgarden

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..... Lastly they ignore the fact that G-d gave the land to the Jewish people in the first place.

But don't let 'facts' stand in your way when the lovely Palestinian Arabs just want peace and freedom and to live in harmony with their fellow man.
:doh:
**************************************************************************************************
Genesis 15:18-21

18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates—
19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites,
20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites,
21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”
Exodus 23:31

31 “I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you.

Deuteronomy 1:6-8

6 The Lord our God said to us at Horeb, “You have stayed long enough at this mountain.
7 Break camp and advance into the hill country of the Amorites; go to all the neighboring peoples in the Arabah, in the mountains, in the western foothills, in the Negev and along the coast, to the land of the Canaanites and to Lebanon, as far as the great river, the Euphrates.
8 See, I have given you this land. Go in and take possession of the land the Lord swore he would give to your fathers—to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—and to their descendants after them.”

Numbers 34:1-15 Boundaries of Canaan

1 The Lord said to Moses,
2 “Command the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter Canaan, the land that will be allotted to you as an inheritance is to have these boundaries:
3 “‘Your southern side will include some of the Desert of Zin along the border of Edom. Your southern boundary will start in the east from the southern end of the Dead Sea,
4 cross south of Scorpion Pass, continue on to Zin and go south of Kadesh Barnea. Then it will go to Hazar Addar and over to Azmon, 5 where it will turn, join the Wadi of Egypt and end at the Mediterranean Sea.
6 “‘Your western boundary will be the coast of the Mediterranean Sea. This will be your boundary on the west.
7 “‘For your northern boundary, run a line from the Mediterranean Sea to Mount Hor
8 and from Mount Hor to Lebo Hamath. Then the boundary will go to Zedad,
9 continue to Ziphron and end at Hazar Enan. This will be your boundary on the north.
10 “‘For your eastern boundary, run a line from Hazar Enan to Shepham.
11 The boundary will go down from Shepham to Riblah on the east side of Ain and continue along the slopes east of the Sea of Galilee.
12 Then the boundary will go down along the Jordan and end at the Dead Sea.
“‘This will be your land, with its boundaries on every side.’”
13 Moses commanded the Israelites: “Assign this land by lot as an inheritance. The Lord has ordered that it be given to the nine and a half tribes,
14 because the families of the tribe of Reuben, the tribe of Gad and the half-tribe of Manasseh have received their inheritance.
15 These two and a half tribes have received their inheritance east of the Jordan across from Jericho, toward the sunrise.”

Ezekiel 47:13-20 The Boundaries of the Land

13 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “These are the boundaries of the land that you will divide among the twelve tribes of Israel as their inheritance, with two portions for Joseph.
14 You are to divide it equally among them. Because I swore with uplifted hand to give it to your ancestors, this land will become your inheritance.
15 “This is to be the boundary of the land:
“On the north side it will run from the Mediterranean Sea by the Hethlon road past Lebo Hamath to Zedad,
16 Berothah and Sibraim (which lies on the border between Damascus and Hamath), as far as Hazer Hattikon, which is on the border of Hauran.
17 The boundary will extend from the sea to Hazar Enan, along the northern border of Damascus, with the border of Hamath to the north. This will be the northern boundary.
18 “On the east side the boundary will run between Hauran and Damascus, along the Jordan between Gilead and the land of Israel, to the Dead Sea and as far as Tamar. This will be the eastern boundary.
19 “On the south side it will run from Tamar as far as the waters of Meribah Kadesh, then along the Wadi of Egypt to the Mediterranean Sea. This will be the southern boundary.
20 “On the west side, the Mediterranean Sea will be the boundary to a point opposite Lebo Hamath. This will be the western boundary.
The Bible contains several definitions of the boundaries of "The Promised Land."

Genesis 15:18-21 definition includes the present state of Israel, the Palestinian territories, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, U.A.E, Oman, Yemen, most of Turkey, and all the land east of the Nile river.

In Deuteronomy 11:24, Deuteronomy 1:7, Numbers 34:1-15, and Ezekiel 47:13-20, the boundaries of Israel encompass a smaller geographical areas than those described in Genesis 15:18-21.

The fact remains that the Bible contains several definitions of "The Promised Land" none of which coincide with Israel's current boundaries.

Why should non-Jews, especially those adversely affected, place credence in any of these claims?

Land of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://www.google.com/search?q=bib...RH6GK2gW70YDoBA&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1600&bih=698
 
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conamer

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If changing desert into a "fertile land" is the justification for forcing the Palestinians out, then the Israelis should be prepared for the same fate when the next group that comes along that can make even better use of the land!
The only ones forced out was Jews from Muslim countries. Jews took in Jewish refugees as their own, Muslims didn't do the same for "Palestinians", they can't be useful if they became citizens in those Muslim countries. They must remain pawns in the deception tward destroying Israel.
 
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Zeek

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Great, give me the names of those books. While we wait for those titles have you been here: Isn't it true that Palestine was empty and inhabited by nomadic people? - Palestine Remembered
:wave:

Again just to clarify, I never claimed the district of Palestine was empty...my main point was that it was sparsely populated.

Thanks to Conamer for providing some names of travel books regarding this issue...also if you look at Middle East Piece - Population Estimates, Demography of Palestine
You will see description after description of just how desolate the late truly was...no one denies there were small pockets of fertile productive land, but the vast majority was barren, inhospitable and disease ridden.

I have several books myself that give mention of life in Palestine, including Scripture Manners and Customs by SPCK and The Land and the Book by Rev W M Thomson...all tie in with the independent witness of many people who travelled through this area.

a couple things to notice was agriculture was the main source of living there and it doesn't sound like it was all that sparsely populated. :sorry:
tulc(will now wait for the standard dismissal of any fact that doesn't agree with the propaganda) :D

Actually one of the things to note is that before 1917, we are talking of the whole district of Palestine that was incorporated into the Ottoman Empire as a province, and even with the best figures available, it is obvious to anyone that it was very very thinly populated.
 
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Zeek

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So you are against a two-state solution?

That is for the Israelis and Palestinian Arabs to thrash out between themselves...personally I would prefer to see Judea and Samaria annexed and more Settlements built, then the Arabs could be incorporated into Israel with full rights as Israeli citizens....I think most Arab Palestinians would prefer this to being under the corrupt rule of the PA.

I do not believe in the right of return.
 
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Zeek

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The Bible contains several definitions of the boundaries of "The Promised Land."

Genesis 15:18-21 definition includes the present state of Israel, the Palestinian territories, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, U.A.E, Oman, Yemen, most of Turkey, and all the land east of the Nile river.

In Deuteronomy 11:24, Deuteronomy 1:7, Numbers 34:1-15, and Ezekiel 47:13-20, the boundaries of Israel encompass a smaller geographical areas than those described in Genesis 15:18-21.

The fact remains that the Bible contains several definitions of "The Promised Land" none of which coincide with Israel's current boundaries.

Why should non-Jews, especially those adversely affected, place credence in any of these claims?

Land of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://www.google.com/search?q=bib...RH6GK2gW70YDoBA&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1600&bih=698

Yes the borders of Israel varied according to the battles they fought etc...but the fact is that Israel is not expansionist, and does not seek the original biblical borders, and is content to remain within a much smaller area. Also Israel today is largely secular, and the biblical land area that I bought up will only motivate a minority of Israelis...they have strong claims on the land apart from the biblical history, and the record of G-ds dealings with the Jewish people.
 
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Zeek

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If changing desert into a "fertile land" is the justification for forcing the Palestinians out, then the Israelis should be prepared to meet the same fate if and when the next group that comes along that claims that they can make even better use of the land!

You make it sound as if the nasty Jews just came over and ousted the thriving indigenous population...leaving out the fact that they had approx 75% of the land promised to them given away to make Jordan, and that they then agree to 12.5% of what they were originally promised...but the Arabs did not want them to have even this much, so the nasty Jews made a big mistake and defeated the 5 Arab armies that tried to destroy them and displaced some of the people that rose up against them and gained land in a defensive war....if only those pesky Jews had been annihilated then we wouldn't have this ongoing conflict. :doh:
 
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Zeek

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I think I'd much rather support the native Palestinian Christians that Israel is oppressing than the Israelis who are engaged in a repressive illegal occupation.

Who knows...perhaps one day you will stumble over the truth of the matter and see that the Arab Palestinian Christians have been severely persecuted, not by the Israelis, but by Arab Moslems...which is why in Bethlehem it was once approx 80% Christian, and is now less than 20%.

Also, many who call themselves Arab Christians, are nominal in their beliefs and fully side with their Moslem neighbours.

Also, it is very hard for true Arab Christians to voice their opinions because in all likelihood they will be abused, beaten up or killed.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/11000

And you can call the Nakba a myth as much as you like. We're not gullible enough to believe you. ;)

I think you have proved amongst other things that you have the monopoly on gullibility. :thumbsup:
 
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jgarden

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Can Israel make a legitimate claim of building settlements in land that once legitimately belong to them? Does the Bible say that land was given to them by God?

Please keep in mind, I don't agree with everything Israel does in relation to the Palestinians. At the same time, I also believe in Israel's absolute right to exist and am thankful to live in a country that has helped Israel so much.
Where else in the world can a group make land claims based on the fact their ancestors once occupied it 1000's of years ago?
 
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Zeek

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Where else in the world can a group make land claims based on the fact their ancestors once occupied it 1000's of years ago?

Ahhh, if that was the only string to Israel's bow, you might have a point...but Israel has a far greater claim on the land they now live in than you dare give them credit for, and they also have a much sounder claim on the whole of Judea and Samaria than any argument put forward by the Palestinian Authority.

It is also fair to bear in mind that virtually the whole of the Middle-East has been divided amongst many Arab/Moslem people, and Israel currently exists on a mere 1/6th of 1% of the total...given that the Jewish people have had a presence throughout the Middle-East and had 850,000 expelled from these lands with nothing but the clothes on their back, they have as much right to a homeland as Lebanon, Syria, Jordan etc etc, and legally their claim is 100% water-tight.
 
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jgarden

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History of Palestine

Before the Hebrews first migrated there around 1800 B.C., the land of Canaan was occupied by Canaanites.

“Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan...Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes.” Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, “Their Promised Land.”

The present-day Palestinians’ ancestral heritage

“But all these [different peoples who had come to Canaan] were additions, sprigs grafted onto the parent tree...And that parent tree was Canaanite...[The Arab invaders of the 7th century A.D.] made Moslem converts of the natives, settled down as residents, and intermarried with them, with the result that all are now so completely Arabized that we cannot tell where the Canaanites leave off and the Arabs begin.” Illene Beatty, “Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan.”

The Jewish kingdoms were only one of many periods in ancient Palestine

“The extended kingdoms of David and Solomon, on which the Zionists base their territorial demands, endured for only about 73 years...Then it fell apart...[Even] if we allow independence to the entire life of the ancient Jewish kingdoms, from David’s conquest of Canaan in 1000 B.C. to the wiping out of Judah in 586 B.C., we arrive at [only] a 414 year Jewish rule.” Illene Beatty, “Arab and Jew in the Land of Canaan.”

How long has Palestine been a specifically Arab country?

“Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics — including its name in Arabic, Filastin — became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314.” Edward Said, “The Question of Palestine.”

How did land ownership traditionally work in Palestine and when did it change?

“[The Ottoman Land Code of 1858] required the registration in the name of individual owners of agricultural land, most of which had never previously been registered and which had formerly been treated according to traditional forms of land tenure, in the hill areas of Palestine generally masha’a, or communal usufruct. The new law meant that for the first time a peasant could be deprived not of title to his land, which he had rarely held before, but rather of the right to live on it, cultivate it and pass it on to his heirs, which had formerly been inalienable...Under the provisions of the 1858 law, communal rights of tenure were often ignored...Instead, members of the upper classes, adept at manipulating or circumventing the legal process, registered large areas of land as theirs...The fellahin [peasants] naturally considered the land to be theirs, and often discovered that they had ceased to be the legal owners only when the land was sold to Jewish settlers by an absentee landlord...Not only was the land being purchased; its Arab cultivators were being dispossessed and replaced by foreigners who had overt political objectives in Palestine.” Rashid Khalidi, “Blaming The Victims,” ed. Said and Hitchens

Was Arab opposition to the arrival of Zionists based on inherent anti-Semitism or a real sense of danger to their community?

“The aim of the [Jewish National] Fund was ‘to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.’...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha’am wrote that the Arabs “understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at’...[Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated] ‘We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly’...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund’s request, evicted them...The indigenous Jews of Palestine also reacted negatively to Zionism. They did not see the need for a Jewish state in Palestine and did not want to exacerbate relations with the Arabs.” John Quigley, “Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.”

Inherent anti-Semitism? —

“Before the 20th century, most Jews in Palestine belonged to old Yishuv, or community, that had settled more for religious than for political reasons. There was little if any conflict between them and the Arab population. Tensions began after the first Zionist settlers arrived in the 1880’s...when [they] purchased land from absentee Arab owners, leading to dispossession of the peasants who had cultivated it.” Don Peretz, “The Arab-Israeli Dispute.”

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict
The Jews are just one of numerous groups that could lay claim to Palestine based on its history.

The Canaanites had settled in Palestine for approximately 2200 years before the arrival of Abraham and his extended family, and have remained there until the present.

The fact that they are no longer a distinctive ethnic group or have been assimilated with a succession of conquerors, in order to survive, does not mean that they must willingly submit to a "process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

The rationale for the current state of Israel is a result of the Holocaust in Europe and the belief by many Christians that it is the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

The Palestinians, however, were not responsible for Holocaust , nor should we be surprised that they take refused for not willingly forfeiting their homeland as the fulfillment of some other group's religious beliefs!
 
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Zeek

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[b)The Jews are just one of numerous groups that could lay claim to Palestine based on its history -

Fact of the matter is that Israel now exists as a legal homeland for the Jewish people and all those that already have claims in the area and are prepared to live peacefully as citizens of Israel.

Canaanites, Philistines and numerous other tribal entities have come and gone and are extinct as any sort of distinctive ethnic group...the Jewish people have maintained a continuous presence in the land, and have maintained their identity throughout the diaspora, despite the combined efforts of many nations to harrass, harm and eradicate them.
 
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jgarden

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History of Palestine

10,000 to 5000 BCE - agricultural communities established.

9000 BCE - Jericho - one of the oldest continuously-inhabited cities in the world

3000 to 1100 B.C. - Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon, much of Syria and Jordan

1800 B.C - arrival of a group of Semitic tribes from Mesopotamia settle {Hebrews - Abraham)

1600 to about 1270 BC - the Hebrew period of "bondage" in Egypt

1400 BC - Egyptian power weakens - arrival of an Aegean people of Indo-European origins (Philistines) who established an independent state on the southern coast of Palestine

1230 BC - Joshua leads a confederation of Hebrew tribes conquers into eastern Palestine from the Canaanites

1125 BC - Israelites defeat the Canaanites, but not the Philistines who retain control of the Canaanite town Jerusalem

1000 BC - Israelite tribes unified under King David defeat the Philistines and assimilate with the Canaanites
- Israel extends her borders to include neighbouring states, establishing a large independent nation, with Jerusalem as its capital
- Israel's "golden age" - 73 years of peace and prosperity under David and his son/successor Solomon

922 BC - after Solomon's death, civil war results in 10 tribes establishing Israel in the north and Judah in the south
- neither state able to retain its independence when confronted by the emergence of powerful neighbouring states independence against neighbouring . Israel fell to Assyria.

721 BC- the Philistines, and then Israel is conquered by the Assyrians and their people sold into slavery

586 BC - Judah conquered by the Babylonians - in Jerusalem the Temple, the Royal Palace and all the great houses were destroyed
- "The Exile" of the prominent political, economic and religious Hebrew families to Babylon

539 BC - Cyrus the Great of Persia conquers Babylonia and allows the "exiled" Jews to return to Judea, a district of Palestine
- while remaining part of the Persian Empire, the Jews rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem and codified the Mosaic law (the Torah)

330 BC - Alexander the Great conquered Palestine, and the region changed hands numerous times

219–200 BC - Palestine joins the Seleucid Empire

116 BC - Seleucid civil war - by 110 BC the Hasmoneans extended their authority over much of Palestine, creating a Judean–Samaritan–Idumaean–Ituraean–Galilean alliance

73–63 BC - the Third Mithridatic War results the Roman conquest of Judea in 63 BC and the splitting the Hasmonean Kingdom into five districts

66-73 AD - the 1st Jewish-Roman war - Emperor Titus destroys Jerusalem, including the Second Temple (leaving only the Western Wall)
- Jews are still able to retain their cultures and religious beliefs

132-136 AD - the Bar-Kochba revolt - Emperor Hadrian re-names the province Syria Palaestina (after the two traditional enemies of the Jews, the Syrians and the Philistines) and banishes all Jews from the region
- the remainder of inhabitants were descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and the original Canaanites that became collectively known as Palestinians

136 to 1948 AD -after the Romans, Palestine was under the control of the Byzantines, the Muslims, the Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans, the British, The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948-1967, on the "West Bank") and Egyptian Republic (in Gaza)

1948 -Israel achieves statehood
 
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Zeek

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History of Palestine

10,000 to 5000 BCE - agricultural communities established.

9000 BCE - Jericho - one of the oldest continuously-inhabited cities in the world

3000 to 1100 B.C. - Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon, much of Syria and Jordan.

The name 'West Bank' is simply used to try and make it seem as if it is separate from Israel...it isn't, it consists of Judea and Samaria which are the heartland of Israel.

1800 B.C - arrival of a group of Semitic tribes from Mesopotamia settle {Hebrews - Abraham)

1600 to about 1270 BC - the Hebrew period of "bondage" in Egypt

The Israelites were in bondage for 100 years longer than stated see
Exodus 12:40 Now the time that the sons of Israel lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years.

1400 BC - Egyptian power weakens - arrival of an Aegean people of Indo-European origins (Philistines) who established an independent state on the southern coast of Palestine

Seeing that Palestine as a district had not yet been invented, this is laughable.

1230 BC - Joshua leads a confederation of Hebrew tribes conquers into eastern Palestine from the Canaanites

Again no such place as Palestine at this time.

1125 BC - Israelites defeat the Canaanites, but not the Philistines who retain control of the Canaanite town Jerusalem

1000 BC - Israelite tribes unified under King David defeat the Philistines and assimilate with the Canaanites How did they assimilate?
- Israel extends her borders to include neighbouring states, establishing a large independent nation, with Jerusalem as its capital
- Israel's "golden age" - 73 years of peace and prosperity under David and his son/successor Solomon

922 BC - after Solomon's death, civil war results in 10 tribes establishing Israel in the north and Judah in the south
- neither state able to retain its independence when confronted by the emergence of powerful neighbouring states independence against neighbouring . Israel fell to Assyria.

721 BC- the Philistines, and then Israel is conquered by the Assyrians and their people sold into slavery

586 BC - Judah conquered by the Babylonians - in Jerusalem the Temple, the Royal Palace and all the great houses were destroyed
- "The Exile" of the prominent political, economic and religious Hebrew families to Babylon

539 BC - Cyrus the Great of Persia conquers Babylonia and allows the "exiled" Jews to return to Judea, a district of Palestine
- while remaining part of the Persian Empire, the Jews rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem and codified the Mosaic law (the Torah)

Nope...there is no Palestine.

330 BC - Alexander the Great conquered Palestine, and the region changed hands numerous times.

Still no Palestine

219–200 BC - Palestine joins the Seleucid Empire

No Palestine

116 BC - Seleucid civil war - by 110 BC the Hasmoneans extended their authority over much of Palestine, creating a Judean–Samaritan–Idumaean–Ituraean–Galilean alliance

It is the old idea of trying to repeat a lie as often as possible so that people will begin to accept it as true...but there is still no Palestine.;)

73–63 BC - the Third Mithridatic War results the Roman conquest of Judea in 63 BC and the splitting the Hasmonean Kingdom into five districts

66-73 AD - the 1st Jewish-Roman war - Emperor Titus destroys Jerusalem, including the Second Temple (leaving only the Western Wall)
- Jews are still able to retain their cultures and religious beliefs

132-136 AD - the Bar-Kochba revolt - Emperor Hadrian re-names the province Syria Palaestina (after the two traditional enemies of the Jews, the Syrians and the Philistines) and banishes all Jews from the region
- the remainder of inhabitants were descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and the original Canaanites that became collectively known as Palestinians

Where do you get the information that the remaining people in the area are now called Palestinians?

The Jews were banned from Jerusalem not the whole district as you imply, or rather your 'cut and paste' claims.

136 to 1948 AD -after the Romans, Palestine was under the control of the Byzantines, the Muslims, the Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans, the British, The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948-1967, on the "West Bank") and Egyptian Republic (in Gaza)

1948 -Israel achieves statehood

There was no district called Palestine after 1948, and the district/province of Palestine covered a vast area and was never an independent country or a sovereign State, and prior to 1948 it was the Jews that were called Palestinians, not the Arabs...they invented that name for themselves in 1964 under the ignominious leadership of Yassir Arafat.

Let me cut and paste a little something.....



Who of Israeli or Palestinian leaders
were born in Palestine?
ISRAELI LEADERS:
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU,
Born 21 October 1949 in Tel Aviv.

EHUD BARAK,
Born 12 February 1942 in Mishmar HaSharon,
British Mandate of Palestine

ARIEL SHARON,
Born 26 February 1928 in Kfar Malal,
British Mandate of Palestine

EHUD OLMERT,
Born 30 September 1945 in Binyamina-Giv'at Ada,
British Mandate of Palestine.
ITZHAK RABIN,
Born 1 March 1922 in Jerusalem,
British Mandate of Palestine.

ITZHAK NAVON,
Israeli President in 1977-1982. Born 9 April 1921 in Jerusalem, British Mandate of Palestine.

EZER WEIZMAN,
Israeli President in 1993-2000. Born 15 June 1924 in Tel Aviv, British Mandate of Palestine.

ARAB “PALESTINIAN” LEADERS:

YASSER ARAFAT,
Born 24 August 1929 in Cairo, Egypt
SAEB EREKAT,
Born April 28, 1955, in Jordan. He has the Jordanian citizenship.

FAISAL ABDEL QADER AL-HUSSEINI,
Born in1948 in Bagdad, Iraq.

SARI NUSSEIBEH,
Born in 1949 in Damascus, Syria.
MAHMOUD AL-ZAHAR,
Born in 1945, in Cairo, Egypt.


So, Israeli leaders, who were born in Palestine,
are “Settlers or Invaders”.
While Palestinian Arab leaders who were born
in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Tunisia
are “Native Palestinians”???

 
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Speaking of the history of Palestine:

791 bc. Israel falls to Assyria.
615 bc. Jerusalem falls to Babylon.
587 bc. Jerusalem falls to Babylon again.
70 ad. Jerusalem falls to the Romans.
135 ad. Jerusalem falls to the Romans again.
614 Jerusalem falls to Persia.
639 Jerusalem falls to the Byzantines.
648 Jerusalem falls to the Muslims.
1099 ad. Jerusalem falls to the Crusaders. The chief synagogue in Jerusalem is burned to the ground along with several rabbis inside.
1187 ad Jerusalem falls to Saladin.
1229 ad. Jerusalem falls to the Crusaders again.
1240 ad Jerusalem falls to the Muslims again.
1917 ad. Jerusalem falls to England.
1967 ad. Jerusalem falls to the Zionists.


But as everyone knows, Jerusalem will never, ever fall. Because, you know, there is a mark on Jerusalem, and God would never let that happen to the apple of His eye. Nope, never.
 
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