Unitarianism or Trinitarianism - which is Biblical?

Jesus was the son of Mary and so He is the son of man!

Re 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

You cannot convince me and I see you will not be either so this discussion is over.

You have something you are up to proving by your analysis and I have no idea what it is.

I admonish all on my part to be overcomers in this time we are in. If not done in this life there will be no prize.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

2 Gibs,
Jesus was the son of Mary and so He is the son of man!

I already know that, but you seem to struggle with that.
Mary was only a surrogate MOTHER. who generated that flesh and blood.

Re 12:5 And *she brought forth a man child,* who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman *which brought forth the man child*.
You cannot convince me and I see you will not be either so this discussion is over.

I'm not here to convince you. just tell you the truth by scriptures. what you do with the truth is your matter, and the Christ, (which is the son of Man). I have discharge my duties, I have told you the truth, according to scripture. so you will not have an excuse before the Lord at his Judgment seat.

and you're correct, this discussion is over, between you and I. but with other I will discuss this topic, in knowledge of the scriptures.


so be blessed, and good day.

You won't sell it to me, maybe someone else, I hope not.

Anyway you tried, be happy.

I am moving on.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs said:

No we cannot move on as the son of man and the Son of God are one and the same!

He is both, son of man born of woman, Son of God as Yah is His Father. Joseph was not Jesus's Father, Yahweh was.

Now born the Son of God didn't make Him God because He is a born entity. A born entity is formed in the womb.

Now read again,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

There is no god anywhere born or formed!

Yahweh's Only Begotten Son was God because of His Father's dwelling in Him in ALL fullness! A union, incarnation was made in the man Jesus Christ. He was thence Deity covered in humanity. It flashed out of Him at times and He did miracles only God could do that were not pertaining to His task of overcoming Satan from our level as one of us to be our substitute and example.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I have posted other verses that proclaim the same.

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

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Amen!Jesus is the TRUE GOD

1 John 5:20
New International Version (NIV)
20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Imagican said:

If Christ were "God in the flesh", why are we TOLD over and over again that God SENT HIS SON? Isn't that a bit DECEIVING?

I mean, if one takes the words LITERAL, then it was GOD's SON that came and died upon the cross.

But if what the 'trinitarians' teach is true, then Christ was not REALLY 'the Son of God', but God HIMSELF, in the flesh.

So isn't that quite deceptive if 'trinity' is TRUTH? For the Bible to tell us over and over again that GOD sent His Son yet the reality being is that God CAME in the form of a man?

And think about this: WHY did God use the term SON to begin with? For EVERY instance that exists in the lives of MEN, a Son comes FROM a Father. The Father is FIRST and the Son comes FROM the Father.

Yet 'trinity' teaches that Christ has ALWAYS been. How deceptive that is for God to teach us of our Savior by referring to Him as HIS SON when according to 'trinity' the Son if EQUAL to the Father. In other words, according to 'trinity', The Son has ALWAYS BEEN just as the Father, (which makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. Think about it: ETERNALLY GENERATED. FIND ONE LINE of scripture that offers anything REMOTELY similar to ETERNALLY GENERATED. You can't. For this term is UTTERLY foreign to the concepts offered in the Bible.

There WAS a time before Christ. PERHAPS more time BEFORE Christ than since. Christ was made BETTER than the angels. That means that the angels existed PREVIOUS to the creation of Christ.

There is not ONE mention of Satan and Christ being in heaven at the same time EXCEPT for the statement that Christ WATCHED Satan's fall. INDICATING that at the time Satan was cast out of heaven that Christ wasn't even strong enough at that time to even fight against Him. It was the ANGELS that fought against Satan and GOD that cast him out of heaven.

And with the concept of Christ being 'created', it is clear that ANY and ALL 'created beings' GROW and LEARN. The very words of Christ STATE that the things He did and the words He offered were the things that He had witnessed of HIS FATHER. He LEARNED these things FROM His Father: GOD.

He said that the words He offered were NOT His own, but GIVEN Him by the Father. That means that there was a TIME BEFORE the 'gift'. A time BEFORE those words were offered. A time BEFORE these words were shared by the Father WITH The Son.

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.


And just LOOK at how 'trinity' DESTROYS all of this. How 'trinity' DENIES the very EXISTENCE of God's Son and turns Him into GOD Himself.

Abraham was tested by God to prove his love for God. The test being to sacrifice his son FOR God. Fortunately for Abraham an angel stopped him right before plunging a knife into his son's heart.

If God demanded this of Abraham, could He offer ANY LESS to MEN?

But 'trinity' would destroy this ENTIRE concept: God offering His ONLY begotten Son as a sacrifice for US. But unlike Abraham, it was NECESSARY for God's Son to actually DIE.

While God was capable of raising Christ after His death, that doesn't alter the pain that must have been endured to watch one's ONLY begotten Son DIE such a hideous death. God loves us THAT MUCH. So much that He actually SENT His Son to DIE FOR us. Sent His Son to SUFFER the sins of this world. To be tempted over and over again. And ultimately to DIE ALONE upon a cross.

Just imagine BEING a 'sacrifice'. Being PUT to death as an OFFERING. Now, imagine DOING it WILLINGLY.

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Blessings,

MEC

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This is typical of a non trinitarian to use this argument. This shows an extreme lack of understanding of the Godhead.

The Trinity is one God who exists simultaneously in three persons. Each is coequal, copowerful, and coeternal with the other. Each person--Father, Son and Holy Spirit--is not the other. Without either there is no God; all comprise the one God.

Analogy of the Trinity: With time, for example, the past is distinct from the present, which is distinct from the future. Each is simultaneous. Yet, they are not three 'times,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: time

Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"


1 Cor. 12:4-6, "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."


2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

There was a time the Redeemer did not exist,

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pr 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Pr 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pr 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pr 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs said:

There was a time the Redeemer did not exist,

Pr 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pr 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Pr 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pr 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pr 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

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Prov 8:22-28 is about Wisdom, isn't it? The Hebrew word for Wisdom is feminine.

Wisdom is who He is, another name for the Redeemer, the Wordof God, the thoughts of God. The Branch sent out from the Father, Possessed of Him, extended, procured.

Possessed, of Proverbs 8:22 is 7069

qanah kaw-naw'

a primitive root; to erect, i.e. create; by extension, to procure, especially by purchase (causatively, sell); by implication to own:--attain, buy(-er), teach to keep cattle, get, provoke to jealousy, possess(-or), purchase, recover, redeem, X surely, X verily.

And so was known as Lord of Hosts 245 times and 40 times as God of Hosts in the old testament.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

One substance with the Father as He came out from Him, not born or created or formed,

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

So notice now who is your Saviour,

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

This all is no mystery, just think it through, He sent forth His Redeemer, Isa 44:6 to be incarnated into Jesus Christ the Body prepared.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Possessed Him in the beginning of His way before His Works of old! So in one sense He is not the first then.

But in reality He is because He and the Father are one substance, a projection out from the Father Himself to be separate from Himself for a great task but still of one substance, mind and Spirit!

Jesus says He is first, is He wrong?

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Assuredly not, we just need to get it straight in our minds the true case of the Fathers great plan of salvation.

The answer is, He truly did extend from Himself, and He say HIS redeemer, Isa 44:6.

OK, for sure on that. But now know He gave Him to us, actually a gift of Himself to come, incarnation, union in Jesus Christ, the body prepared and so then He became OUR redeemer, Saviour!

Realization! He our Heavenly Father not only gave Himself, He also gave to us His one and only Begotten Son. His Only Begotten also gave ALL, His life and shed His Blood and suffered tremendously at our hands. We are all guilty as we ALL have sinned! Actually Heaven could give no more. The Father dwelt in Him through it ALL and did not in anger destroy us all!

What forbearance, grace, Love and longsuffering of our Heavenly Father and Redeemer!

How can we not love them with ALL our hearts, minds and souls and desire to do His complete will for us? Is it not that we want to please Him in every respect? Rendering perfect obedience our goal!

He said, -
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

I purposely placed the two verses prior last to give you the context.

None can be plucked from Jesus's hand any more than the Fathers, Hmmm, yes because as He states, "I and my father are one".

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Once again exegesis is your Achilles heel. Proverbs is clearly about Wisdom and not a personification of God or Jesus. Wisdom being a feminine word works against it applying to Jesus.

John
NZ

Johhnnz,

Sure, have as you want but as for me it is clear,

Pr 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Pr 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Pr 8:32 ¶ Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Pr 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs said:

Johhnnz,

Sure, have as you want but as for me it is clear,

Pr 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Pr 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Pr 8:32 ¶ Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Pr 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

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May I ask what are your beliefs about the God head are?You seem to have a gross misunderstanding of Proverbs 8.

To begin with, even though the NT describes Jesus in language that is reminiscent of the Wisdom texts, with the early Church using Proverbs 8:22-36 to prove Jesus' prehuman existence and generation, the reference itself is not speaking of Christ. The context clearly shows that the passage is referring to God's own eternal attribute of Wisdom:

Does not wisdom call, does not understanding raise her voice? ... I, wisdom, dwell in prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion...The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, rejoicing in his inhabite world and delighting in the sons of men. And now, my sons, listen to me: happy are those who keep my ways. Hear instruction and be wise, and do not neglect it. Happy is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors. For he who finds me finds life and obtains favor from the LORD; but he who misses me injures himself; all who hate me love death." Proverbs 8:1, 12, 22-36 RSV

Solomon is taking an impersonal attribute of God and personifying it, a common literary feature of Wisdom literature. The reason why Solomon personified Wisdom as a woman is because the Hebrew word for it, hokmah, is feminine in gender.

Moreover, the verb for create in verse 22 is qanah which can refer to acquiring, purchasing, getting etc., just as the following lexicon explains:

1) to get, acquire, create, buy, possess
a) (Qal)
1) to get, acquire, obtain
a) of God originating, creating, redeeming His people
1) possessor
b) of Eve acquiring
c) of acquiring knowledge, wisdom
2) to buy
b) (Niphal) to be bought
c) (Hiphil) to cause to possess (Source)
It is used throughout Proverbs to mean "acquire," "purchase," "get":

"the wise man also may hear and increase in learning, and the man of understanding acquire skill," Proverbs 1:5

"do not forget, and do not turn away from the words of my mouth. Get wisdom; get insight... The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom, and whatever you get, get insight." Proverbs 4:5, 7

"He who ignores instruction despises himself, but he who heeds admonition gains understanding." Proverbs 15:32

"To get wisdom is better than gold; to get understanding is to be chosen rather than silver." Proverbs 16:16

"Why should a fool have a price in his hand to buy wisdom, when he has no mind?" Proverbs 17:16

"An intelligent mind acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge." Proverbs 18:15

"He who gets wisdom loves himself; he who keeps understanding will prosper." Proverbs 19:8

"'It is bad, it is bad,' says the buyer; but when he goes away, then he boasts." Proverbs 20:14

"Buy truth, and do not sell it; buy wisdom, instruction, and understanding." Proverbs 23:23

In the context of Proverbs 8:22 the verb is more literally translated, not as create, but as begotten or birthed, i.e. "Yahweh begot/ birthed me as the beginning of his ways." This can be readily seen from a more literal rendering of Proverbs 8:22-25:

"Yahweh himself begat me as the beginning of his way, the first of his acts of old. From eternity I was appointed, from the start, before the beginning of the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been fashioned, before the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains."

The text is obviously speaking figuratively on how Yahweh acquired Wisdom, i.e. Yahweh got it by begetting or birthing it in order to use it to create everything. We know that it is figurative since Yahweh doesn't literally give birth in labor pains.

The following texts make it clear that Wisdom was birthed for the purpose of being used by Yahweh to create:

"Happy is the man who finds wisdom, and the man who gets understanding, for the gain from it is better than gain from silver and its profit better than gold. She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her; those who hold her fast are called happy. The LORD BY WISDOM founded the earth; BY UNDERSTANDING he established the heavens; BY HIS KNOWLEDGE the deeps broke forth, and the clouds drop down the dew." Proverbs 3:13-20

David, in the Psalms, wrote that God created everything that has been made in Wisdom:

"He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved. You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. At your rebuke they fled; at the sound of your thunder they took to flight. The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them. You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth. You make springs gush forth in the valleys; they flow between the hills; they give drink to every beast of the field; the wild donkeys quench their thirst. Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; they sing among the branches. From your lofty abode you water the mountains; the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work. You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart. The trees of the LORD are watered abundantl, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted. In them the birds build their nests; the stork has her home in the fir trees. The high mountains are for the wild goats; the rocks are a refuge for the rock badgers. He made the moon to mark the seasons; the sun knows its time for setting. You make darkness, and it is night, when all the beasts of the forest creep about. The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God. When the sun rises, they steal away and lie down in their dens. Man goes out to his work and to his labor until the evening. O LORD, how manifold are your works! IN WISDOM HAVE YOU MADE THEM ALL; the earth is full of your creatures." Psalm 104:1-24 ESV

The fact that Wisdom was used by God to create every created thing shows that Wisdom itself is not created since it existed before creation. This leads us to our next point.

It is important to note that not every act of begetting or creation necessarily implies that the thing created or begotten didn't exist prior to that moment. For instance, the verb qanah is used in reference to Eve giving birth to Cain:

"Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, 'I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD.'" Genesis 4:1 RSV

It is obvious that Cain didn't come into existence the moment that Eve gave birth or "produced him" since he was already alive and existing in his mother's womb for at least nine months. This demonstrates that the verb qanah doesn't necessarily refer to creating someone or something from nothing, but can refer to something or someone that already existed and was then brought forth or birthed.

In light of the foregoing, the question then becomes from where did Yahweh beget Wisdom? Did he beget it by creating it out of nothing, ex nihilo, or did he beget it out of his own Being, out of himself? Proverbs itself provides a clue:

"For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding;" Proverbs 2:6 RSV

The Wisdom which Yahweh gives is the knowledge and understanding that comes from his mouth. The reference is essentially saying that Yahweh produced Wisdom out of his own mouth, which shows that Wisdom wasn't created from nothing since it existed with(in) Yahweh. In other words, Yahweh always had Wisdom as an attribute which he then produced or brought forth in order to create and to give to others.

Basically, what this implies is that Proverbs is using figurative language to describe how Yahweh birthed his own eternal attribute of Wisdom from Himself in creating everything. Thus, even if the text were referring to Christ this would only prove that the Creedal statements were correct in stating that Jesus was eternally begotten before all creation, begotten not made.

Yet, as it stands, this text isn't referring to Christ nor is it saying that Wisdom was created from nothing. It is simply a poetic description of how Yahweh used his own eternal attribute of Wisdom to create all things.

yogosans14 said:

This is typical of a non trinitarian to use this argument. This shows an extreme lack of understanding of the Godhead.

The Trinity is one God who exists simultaneously in three persons. Each is coequal, copowerful, and coeternal with the other. Each person--Father, Son and Holy Spirit--is not the other. Without either there is no God; all comprise the one God.

Analogy of the Trinity: With time, for example, the past is distinct from the present, which is distinct from the future. Each is simultaneous. Yet, they are not three 'times,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: time

Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"


1 Cor. 12:4-6, "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."


2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

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While my arguments may well be 'typical' of those presented by NON 'trinitarians', they are certainly valid.

And then LOOK at the scripture that you quoted. Not a SINGLE word concerning the existence of THREE PERSONS in ONE God. NOT a SINGLE word concerning their being 'three persons' that are "coequal, copowerful, and coeternal". l am forced to accept and BELIEVE what MEN have 'created' in order to believe what it is that YOU believe: "trinity". I think that I am in a 'better' position to simply accept what we have been offered in 'scripture' than that which WISE MEN created on their own.

But since you brought it up:

How is it that you are able to reconcile this 'coequal, copowerful, and coeternal' aspect of the 'three persons' when Christ Himself states that the Father is GREATER than the Son. That God is HIS FATHER. And that a 'servant is NOT 'greater' than his master'? That there are things that ONLY God knows. Things that Christ DOES NOT KNOW.

And HOW, if Christ is simply one of three persons that make up ONE God, does Christ STATE that God is HIS God, (not: I am a PART of God), as well as OUR God and God is HIS Father as well as Our Father?

How does Christ, (one of the three persons that make up ONE God), talk ABOUT God and TO God when HE IS GOD?

You see, NONE of these things has a REASONABLE answer as far as 'trinity' is concerned. I've had these conversations with those that are as VERSED in 'trinity' as one CAN BE. And it always leads BACK to the SAME answers when confronted with those THINGS offered in scripture that contradict it: It's a MYSTERY. And I contend that "IF" 'trinity' IS a mystery, then it was NEVER truly REVEALED. For once the ANSWER to a mystery is revealed, it is NO LONGER a 'mystery'.

So just try and answer ONE question if you are willing:

How do you reconcile your belief that all three persons of the 'trinity' are 'coequal, copowerful, and coeternal', when Christ OPENLY states that The Father is GREATER than the Son. And if you are willing, explain to us HOW the Son is equal in power to the Father when ALL the power that the Son possesses was GIVEN HIM by the Father.

John 17

King James Version (KJV)



17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.


Hmmmm..................I have declared unto them THY NAME??????? Let's see, WHO or WHAT NAME did Christ use to define 'He that SENT HIM'? One of the names was 'Father'. The other?: GOD.


He didn't say that He had declared THEIR COLLECTIVE NAME, but simply THY NAME as He was addressing HIS FATHER.



It's really THAT SIMPLE: God is THE God and Father of Christ. God is OUR God and OUR Heavenly Father. Christ is the SON of God. God IS His Father.


So you see, the REASON that you have heard these same arguments over and over is that 'trinity' CANNOT offer ANY acceptable answer to the questions raised by Christ's words themselves.


Most that believe as I do cannot FATHOM that Christ would have those that were with Him write down their accounts of their time with Him, sometimes even quoting Him OUTRIGHT, but NEVER ONCE mention anything about this "THREE PERSONS IN ONE GOD". Four Gospels and all that Paul penned and not ONE MENTION of 'trinity' or "three persons in ONE God".



Yet we DO have the words offered by John that I have posted here. And within those words, (if you read them and understand them), almost everything He offered utterly CONTRARY to the concept of 'trinity'. Especially what most on this forum OFFER concerning 'trinity'.


For you yourself offered that God CANNOT exist without ALL THREE PERSONS. Yet what Christ offered is that God SENT HIS SON, NOT that His Son is a 'THIRD PERSON that make up ONE God'. But that while His Son was living in the flesh here on Earth, God was STILL in Heaven.


The Words God and Father are OBVIOUSLY interchangeable. But NOT ONCE is Christ called: God the Son in the Entirety of scripture. Of ALL the names referring to Christ, funny that MEN would have to MAKE UP this: 'God the Son' in order to try and FIT 'trinity' into Christianity.



"Trinitarians" quote scripture that mentions The Father and Son being ONE as if this somehow PROVES 'trinity'. Yet above we have numerous lines of scripture where Christ is imploring HIS Father to let His followers be ONE as The Father and Son are ONE. So if this ONENESS proves that Jesus And The Father are merely TWO persons that make up ONE God, then Christ is begging His Father to make ALL Of Christ's followers GOD AS WELL. For He STATES: "AS WE ARE ONE.....let THEM be one".


The concept of 'trinity' did NOT EXIST at the time that the Bible was penned. If it HAD BEEN, it would certainly have been mentioned. Not even the CONCEPT of 'trinity' is mentioned in the Bible nor uttered among Christians for almost TWO HUNDRED YEARS after the DEATH of Christ. And then by philosophers of the Roman Empire.


And how funny is that? This "ALL IMPORTANT TRINITY" being UNKNOWN to Peter and Paul or ANY OTHER APOSTLE, but God REVEALING 'trinity' to the very people that nailed His Son to the Cross. And not during the lifetime of His Son, but a couple hundred years AFTER they had put His Son to death.


Christ STATES that He came, not ONLY as a sacrifice for our sins, but to REVEAL His Father: GOD. But He NEVER mentioned 'trinity'. Never mentioned that both Father and Son are the SAME God. Never mentioned that God CANNOT exist without The Holy Spirit and the Son.


Yet He DID state over and over that He was/IS 'the Son of the Living God'. he did state that there is NO OTHER God but THE God that is His Father. He DID state that what He did He did for the GLORY of His Father.


And folks, what is the significance of USING the word SON if it has NO meaning? Christ states that He possessed a PLACE in heaven BEFORE this world was formed. So this begs a question: Do you BELIEVE that Christ WAS God's Son BEFORE this world was formed? And IF SO, how does one HAVE a son that is NOT "CREATED"? For that 'eternal generation' is MEANINGLESS to me. NOT offered in the Bible. And really has NO significant definition even from those that COINED it.


The Bible STATES that the Son was MADE 'better than the angels'. MADE being the key word. That Jesus was the FIRSTBORN of every 'creature'. And the indication from Christ's words themselves is NOT that He has ALWAYS been, only that BEFORE this Earth was formed, He existed. That indicates to ME that He was FORMED, created, MADE, came into existence sometime BEFORE this world was formed. But it certainly doesn't even INDICATE an ETERNAL existence. He has existed FROM the 'beginning'. But that beginning is pertaining to that which involved US and THIS EARTH. Obviously God did NOT 'begin'. Obviously God is NOT the firstborn of every creature. And then there is THIS:


john 1:


4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.


Genesis 1

King James Version (KJV)



1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


And it's not until the SIXTH DAY that the use of PLURALS are used concerning God. As in: LET US make man in OUR image.


So what this indicates to me is that 'in the beginning', BEFORE this Earth was given 'shape', God 'created' LIGHT. And 'that Light' was HIS SON. That Light was the LIFE of men. For God created MEN through His Son. Christ was 'created' FOR God as 'man was created' FOR Christ.


Blessings,


MEC

Yogosans14,

Can you show us where this 'eternally begotten' phrase exists in the Bible? While I agree with PART of your statement, (Christ existed BEFORE 'creation'), the Bible indicates that this is not COMPLETELY true. For what the Bible indicates is that Christ came into existence when God SAID: Let there be LIGHT. That wasn't before ALL 'creation'. For the BEGINNING of 'creation' was God 'creating' the heaven and the earth. While some confuse this with THIS Earth, what it REALLY means is that God created Space and Matter. That which has NO form and that which is SOLID or that is capable of having a form. But it also states that the 'earth' that was created was VOID and WITHOUT FORM. When THIS 'Earth' was formed, even in it's infantile state, it would have had SOME sort of FORM. So we KNOW that the use of the word 'earth' is NOT in reference to this planet. But merely a reference to MATTER. For the 'earth', (matter), that was created was VOID and WITHOUT FORM.

So, first space and matter was formed. THEN God said, "Let there be LIGHT". I believe that this was the 'creation' of His Son. Not the SUN, but His only begotten Son. The LIGHT of men. For without LIGHT, there is NO LIFE. In essence, we were CREATED by LIGHT. For without it, we could not exist. NO LIFE that we KNOW of on this planet could exist WITHOUT LIGHT. Hence, the FIRSTBORN of EVERY CREATURE. Hence the, "in OUR image". For without Light, ALL would be DARKNESS. And I believe that the use of the word 'darkness' as offered in the beginning is in reference to NOTHINGNESS. And then God created His Son: LIGHT. And that LIGHT is the LIFE of men. That 'Light' is All life THAT WE KNOW OF.

Blessings,

MEC

yogosans14 said:

Solomon is taking an impersonal attribute of God and personifying it, a common literary feature of Wisdom literature. The reason why Solomon personified Wisdom as a woman is because the Hebrew word for it, hokmah, is feminine in gender.

The text is obviously speaking figuratively on how Yahweh acquired Wisdom, i.e. Yahweh got it by begetting or birthing it in order to use it to create everything. We know that it is figurative since Yahweh doesn't literally give birth in labor pains.

Wisdom is an attribute of God, what He is. God has not created a new aspect of Himself. That is a theological nonsense. The reference to God creating wisdom is to the evident wisdom and order we discern is creation. This is why the author writes "The fear of the lord is te beginning of wisdom."

The following texts make it clear that Wisdom was birthed for the purpose of being used by Yahweh to create:

The LORD BY WISDOM founded the earth; BY UNDERSTANDING he established the heavens; BY HIS KNOWLEDGE the deeps broke forth, and the clouds drop down the dew." Proverbs 3:13-20

Do we conclude that wisdom was created rather than being as aspect of who God is in His essence, but that understanding an knowledge were not so created. Was there a time when God was not wise, or knowledgeable or having understanding?

"Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, 'I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD.'" Genesis 4:1 RSV

Here your understanding of the text is inadequate. The verb used is commonly used throughout the OT with the meaning of acquire, purchase, to get. There is nothig to support your argument related to the process of begetting.

Yet, as it stands, this text isn't referring to Christ nor is it saying that Wisdom was created from nothing. It is simply a poetic description of how Yahweh used his own eternal attribute of Wisdom to create all things.

Click to expand...

A agree with that statement.

John
NZ

God the Father and the Branch He sent forth are the fountain and foundation and fountain of all widsom and understanding. The wise draw from that fountain.

The rest in this world is of Satan and his angels and men.

Their wisdom is for destruction for they are destroyers and we are now about to the summit of when God will bring an utter end to it. Look around you and discern the signs of the times, no not for clouds of rain but notice the clouds that signal we are at the end.

If any desire to be wise, the place to go is to Christ and ask Him for Wisdom and understanding. If you are truly one of His you will not be refused!

Yes Jesus Christ is the eternal existent one for the simple reason He came forth out of the Father, not born or formed but sent, extended, The Branch! Incorporated, the incarnation in Jesus born at Bethlehem. A union making Him one that finite minds are not able to fathom. Remember, God is Spirit not as we the finite. The real you and I are spirit as far as that goes dwelling in a body of flesh. The body dies and our spirit is held by God for resurrection #1 or #2.

If #2 our spirit is ended at that time!

It behooves us to be overcomers in the here and not,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Imagican said:

Yogosans14,

Can you show us where this 'eternally begotten' phrase exists in the Bible? While I agree with PART of your statement, (Christ existed BEFORE 'creation'), the Bible indicates that this is not COMPLETELY true. For what the Bible indicates is that Christ came into existence when God SAID: Let there be LIGHT. That wasn't before ALL 'creation'. For the BEGINNING of 'creation' was God 'creating' the heaven and the earth. While some confuse this with THIS Earth, what it REALLY means is that God created Space and Matter. That which has NO form and that which is SOLID or that is capable of having a form. But it also states that the 'earth' that was created was VOID and WITHOUT FORM. When THIS 'Earth' was formed, even in it's infantile state, it would have had SOME sort of FORM. So we KNOW that the use of the word 'earth' is NOT in reference to this planet. But merely a reference to MATTER. For the 'earth', (matter), that was created was VOID and WITHOUT FORM.

Void=empty. There were three days of creating order and three days of filling each realm.

So, first space and matter was formed. THEN God said, "Let there be LIGHT". I believe that this was the 'creation' of His Son. Not the SUN, but His only begotten Son. The LIGHT of men. For without LIGHT, there is NO LIFE. In essence, we were CREATED by LIGHT. For without it, we could not exist. NO LIFE that we KNOW of on this planet could exist WITHOUT LIGHT. Hence, the FIRSTBORN of EVERY CREATURE. Hence the, "in OUR image". For without Light, ALL would be DARKNESS. And I believe that the use of the word 'darkness' as offered in the beginning is in reference to NOTHINGNESS. And then God created His Son: LIGHT. And that LIGHT is the LIFE of men. That 'Light' is All life THAT WE KNOW OF.

Blessings,

MEC

Click to expand...

You are on your own with that interpolation of Jesus into that word in the creation account.

John
NZ

GINOLJC to all.

Now we will turn our attention to the Trinitarians. since the Unitarian doctrine is full of ERRORS. which are,
#1. our Lord Jesus is just a mere man as you and I. and that he is the agent of God, or work on god behalf as Saviour. that's a big mistake. if Jesus was a mere man as they say, then we all should transfigure ourselves as the Christ did?. ain't happening,.... is it. that alone should tell us that he's no mere humans man. but he is LIKE us, but not us.
#2. the Unitarian doctrine fail again by providing a physical Saviour for spiritual deliverance. that's another big ERROR, when the bible clearly states that no man was found worthy to save the world from their sins., which is spiritual deliverance. no mere man can do it. Only God coming in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh saved up, (see Isaiah 35:4). "a" human savior is one of the cornerstone foundation of the Unitarian doctrine. and now that their cornerstone of this human agent is taken away, their doctrine falls flat on its face.
#3. again the Unitarian doctrine fails as well as the oneness doctrine when they claim that God is one God, which is true. but they fail to see God in "diversity", as a man to save mankind. this is a big mistake on their part. but at least they do know that it is one God, but without knowledge. so now we will look at the Trinitarians failure to abide to the Exegesis of scriptures, and the result, an ERRONEOUS doctrine.
the first step in correcting ERRORS in a doctrine is to eliminate it strongholds. for the words the Lord Jesus said, Matthew 12:26 "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house".
so lets spoil the goods of the trinity doctrine, first by binding its strongholds, which is Genesis 1:26. the "us", and the "our", need proper explanation. and the second stronghold of the trinity doctrine is the baptizing of our Lord by John the Baptist. here, the Trinitarians say the father, the son, and the Holy Ghost is all present. well lets see.

the first binding: from Genesis 1:1 up until Genesis1:26 notice God never said let us make light, or let us make plants, or let us make animals and ect..... especially in our (God) image, or our (God) likeness?. I’m not trying to be funny here, or be disrespectful to God and his creation. but I’m setting a pattern for us to see something. only when we get to Genesis 1:26 did God say, “us", and “our”. I wonder why?. now some who have opposed the trinity doctrine have used the old English speech of kings of that day trying to blow off the Trinitarians with, “we” go, or they go, as to explain the plurality usage. that's good, but if I was a Trinitarian I wouldn’t let someone blow me off that easy. so lets go to the bible itself and understand why the plurality is used there.

turn in your bibles to Genesis chapter 5. one must fight fire with fire. and "our", well, "my" God is a consuming fire. verse 1 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him. 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created”. here is the account of what happen in Genesis 1:26 retold, when God made man. we have additional information on man's creation. it said he, (God), and he is singular, so where is the "us", and the "our" that's in Genesis 1:26?.....well. lets look at this in the net bible. maybe the KJV just didn’t get it right. (net bible) Genesis 5:1 "This is the record of the family line of Adam. When God created humankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female; when they were created, he blessed them and named them “humankind.”. Hmmmmmm, seems like the net bible is saying the same thing. “he”, which is singular for God. but when we look at all of the other translation they are saying the same thing too. if you will, check it out, maybe my bible program might have a glitch in it at to these verses. when you get through checking that out, then we can continue........ well its the same. Hmmmmm, this means only one of two things. #1. the bible have a contradiction, God forbid, or #2. what was said in Genesis have a mystery to it, which is just not known......... yet. my stand is this. the bible have no contradiction. and two when a contradiction seen to be, it just not understood yet. so, the quest is to find the truth is at hand. finding out the truth will eliminate any contradictions. so that what seems like a contradiction is really a lack of knowledge & understanding.

With the understanding of a diversity. meaning, "another,G243 ἄλλος allos of the same sort, or nature", as I have previous defined. we can began to see the "us", and the "our". Now, STOP, and think for a minute. how is God in diversity make the speech plural in Genesis 1:26, when the diversity is not until Mary birth?. good question. simple, the answer is in the very verse in question itself. Genesis 1:26, lets read it again and understand the truth. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth". here it said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness". HOLD IT, WHAT IS THE LIKENESS OF GOD?. and two, WHAT IS THE IMAGE OF GOD. remember, God is a Spirit, (no flesh, no bone, or blood). no one can see him. so I ask how can man be the in the Image of God who is a Spirit, that we can't see?. and two what is a Spirit likeness?, and also the image of the Spirit?... . well let the bible answer that question for us. Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come". that word Figure is G5179 τύπος tupos (too'-pos) n.
1. a die (as struck)
2. (by implication) a stamp or scar
3. (by analogy) a shape, i.e. a statue
4. (figuratively) style or resemblance
5. (specially) a sampler ("type"), i.e. a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning)
[from G5180]
KJV: en-(ex-)ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print

God figure, is God shape, and God shape is God fashion, and God Fashion is God image, and that image is "MAN".

so now we see why we have a fleshly body. FOR IT WAS TO COME. Adam the first man was only the figure, or as the definition states, the "PATTERN" of him to come. and he that came is God himself in a flesh body, which was the pattern to come. Christ (God) the "another", was to come in a body, who is the (diversified, "another" G243 ἄλλος allos of the same sort, or nature) which is God nature. this is also revealed in the name that he (God) gave to Moses. "I AM THAT I AM", which is revealed in the book of revelation, 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty". lets breakdown this name and see the diversity. I AM, "which is" Spirit (Genesis 1:1). THAT, "which was" in flesh & blood, (John 1:1). I AM, "which is to come", Spirit in flesh and bone, no blood, Glorified, (revelation 1:1). his name says it all, "I AM THAT I AM". God in "diversity". that why David said, "the LORD said unto my Lord". God in diversity, a flesh body, now glorified. this is the NEW MAN, that is to come. supportive scripture, 1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward (that which is to come),that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven". there you have it, the Lord is the "man from heaven", which is the come. Just as Isaiah 35:4 said, "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you".
THIS JUST KILLED TWO BIRDS WITH ONE STONE, meaning the ERROR of the trinity doctrine of our Lord's Baptism, as well as the "us", and the "our" of the image of the one to COME. so their is no trinity, only "DIVERSITY". this doctrine of diversity, answer the GODHEAD question truthfully by scripture. where the Trinitarians have a father and a son. these are only titles of the SAME ONE GOD IN "DIVERSITY".

conclusion: the Trinitarians have made titles, "Father, and "Son", and turn these titles into PERSON. which these titles are of the SAME Spirit. this is their corner stone ERROR. he who is the true God, they have made him their third PERSON in their trinity, the true Spirit, the Holy Spirit. what a gross mistake. titles into separate person, Oh Lord. "diversity" is the Exegesis of the scriptures.

be blessed.

GINOLJC.

2 matthewgraham027,

I was looking at you OP, especially #2. which states " If Unitarianism is correct then there is one God & one Lord (1 Cor 8:6), one God & one mediator between God & man the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2:5), one God & one man who has been exalted to God's right hand as "Lord" (Acts 2:32-33, Phil 2:8-11). In Unitarianism, the Bible makes much sense; one simply means one, there really is nothing behind that".
if your, meaning the Unitarian belief, that there is ONE God, and ONE Lord, and the Man Christ Jesus is exalted to God's right hand as "Lord". I have a question for you. why then did Thomas call Jesus both "Lord" and "God"?. scripture, John 20:26 "And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed".

could you please tell us why Thomas made that statement, and two why Jesus never corrected him?.

Well you know also that Jesus told Philip,

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Don't you see Yahweh the Father was in Him and so yes He is for sure Lord and God with us in a body of flesh. How else could he have seen the Father in Him if He weren't.

Don't you know when it is all over the Father's indwelling Deity is returned?

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.