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he-man
he-man
You are in the grave continually unless God decides to awaken you for judgment.
Psa 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
1Sa 2:10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.
...following the way of Balaam ..2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
Job 6:17 What time they wax warm, they vanish: when it is hot, they are consumed out of their place.
18 The paths of their way are turned aside; they go to nothing, and perish.
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he-man
he-man
Correct, unless you sleep in Christ and believe.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:9
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he-man
he-man
A.T. Robertson CHAPTER V. P.170; Word-Formation 143-176
I. Etymology (d) The Adverb 4. Adverbs
These are usually formed either from adjectives or a preposition and a noun-root as in αποτόμως 2Cor 13:10,The κοινη shows a distinct turn for new adverbial combinations and the N. T. illustrates it very clearly. The chief compound adverbs used in the N. T. characteristic
of the κοινη are here given αποτόμως (Polyb., Diod., Wisd., Longin.)
[FONT=Greekth,Bold]g[/FONT]) Those from adjectives. The new substantives derived from adjectives in the later Greek found in the N. T. all have suffixes expressing quality. With ιαwe find [FONT=Greekth,Bold]αποτομια [/FONT](from [FONT=Greekth,Bold]αποτομος[/FONT], Diod., Dion., pap.);
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BrianJK
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I struggled with this for a long time. I was never given a satisfactory answer. I was basically told that I need to believe what everyone else believes or I'm not a Christian. No real solid Scriptural evidence. After talking to many pastors about it, I caved in. I accept the teachings of the church leaders based on trust in God's revelation to them. I still don't understand it and at times doubt, but what can I do?
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Phantasman
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I've learned over the years, that what I was taught, and what I experience now, is not the same thing when it come to many Biblical messages.I've had people tell me that "it's quite clear", with differing positions on what the Bible says. I gave up listening.
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Somewhat interesting but irrelevant to this discussion. You have been arguing that the noun [size=+1]αποτομια[/size] means exactly the same thing as the adverb [SIZE="+1"]ἀποτόμος[/SIZE]
A quality must be a noun. An adjective or adverb cannot be a quality. In Rom 11:22 [SIZE="+1"]αποτομια[/SIZE] is a quality of God in opposition to "[SIZE="+1"]χρηστότης[/SIZE]/goodness" Since you keep insisting that the noun [size=+1]αποτομια[/size] means "cut off" or "cutting off" please explain how either one of these could be a quality of God?
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Plenty in scripture that describes Hell for it is a state of consciousness after your body dies.
This is how scripture describes it:
1) Nakedness = disembodied conscious soul
2) Darkness = Away from God's presence is a state of conscious state of darkness.
3) Restlessness = you are constantly in conscious pain of not knowing when this conscious state will end.
4) Constant heightened fear = being a disembodied soul your consciousness is not able to interface like it did when it had a bio mechanical human body.
5) Torment = conscious state of doom by wanting out but not able to find an ending to the solitude.
Basically Hell is a place of incarceration a solitary confinement for the conscious disembodied soul.
How could it be likened to?
Like being buried alive in a coffin separated from everything in the pitch black darkness without the sensory inputs that come from our bio mechanical human bodies.
It is a state of living nightmare for the consciousness where screaming can't be herd nor can it be manufacturered as an output neither can you hear your imaginable screems as you don't have ears as input.
It is like taking away all five senses of the bio mechanical human body and then placing that person in a coffin in the ground.
It isn't pleasant way to end your existence and we are told in scripture that God is a merciful judge and he does at some point in time put them all out of their miseries in the lake of fire at the end of age.
So this second death is the death of the incarcerated disembied soul serving in Hell.
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You can not accept their word for it, unless the have solid scriptural proof. If they are teaching the truth, they should be able to supply proof from the Bible. If they can't, then they aren't teaching the truth. Read John 3:16, the only two options are perishing or having eternal life. Having eternal life being tortured in Hell forever is not one of the possibilities.
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BrianJK
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Unfortunately, even though I can't see the scriptural proof, apparently 99.9% of Christendom can. I wish they could explain it to me in a way that I could understand instead of simply accusing me of heresy by asking them how x verse proves y doctrine. However, I don't need to have everything logically proven in order for me to accept it. God has called me to a certain kind of ministry in a certain kind of church. In order to have any ministry position in almost any church, you have to profess this thing everyone but me understands about hell. If I do not, then I'm not allowed in. Simple as that. If God called me there, and the church leaders assure me they have sound theology even though I can't understand it, then I pretty much have to accept it.
Like I said, I really wish I could see how the Scriptures teach this doctrine. I haven't met anyone with the kind of patience it takes to teach me on this. I know it would take a lot! lol
Bottom line, I don't see the evidence, but I accept it. And I'm fine with that.
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I will try to give you the information you're asking for. I have been in this discussion for quite a while and have addressed all the arguments from the Hell-No faction. But instead of trying to reinvent the wheel I will post links to my previous posts. If you have any questions please respond to the post for which you have the question and I will respond as soon as I can. Just click on the green links.
28 passages where Jesus addresses the fate of the wicked.
[post=63584700]Jesus and Hell[/post]
Nine Greek sources, the definition of Aion
[post=63469310]Greek sources-[size=+1]αιον[/size]/aion def.[/post]
[post=63353872]Greek sources [size=+1]αιον[/size]/aion def.[/post]
[post=63296315]Greek sources [size=+1]αιον[/size]/aion def.[/post]
Jewish Encyclopedia [JE] Jewish belief in Satan
[post=63462264]JE - Jews and Satan[/post]
JE - Jewish belief in Hell
[post=63318413]JE-Jews and Hell[/post]
[post=63314072]JE-Jews and Hell[/post]
JE - Jewish Belief in the Resurrection.
[post=63367439]JE-Jews and resurrection[/post]
Talmud Jewish belief in hell
[post=63598623]Talmud-Jews and Hell[/post]
[post=63318413]Talmud-Jews and Hell[/post]
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Der Alter, I still can't see how this passage (the very first one of your "proofs") helps your side at all:
This is saying exactly what I've been telling you. He will burn up the chaff. He will not send the chaff to hell to be tormented alive forever and ever.Der Alter said:
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he-man
he-man
Exactly see A.T. Robertson CHAPTER V. P.170; Word-Formation 143-176
I. Etymology (d) The Adverb 4. Adverbs
These are usually formed either from adjectives or a preposition and a noun-root as in αποτόμως 2Cor 13:10,
The κοινη shows a distinct turn for new adverbial combinations and the N. T. illustrates it very clearly. The chief compound adverbs [a noun-root ] used in the N. T. characteristic of the κοινη are here given αποτόμως (Polyb., Diod., Wisd., Longin.)
BAG: αχυρον chaff On the burning of
ESV Xrefs: but the chaff he will burn with
Mal 4:1 For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.
(*) "burn up the chaff" Psalms 1:4, Mal 4:1, Mark 9:44 BARNES
but he will burn up the chaffempty, worthless professors of religion, void of all solid religious principle and character (see Ps 1:4). JFB
There is a day coming when the wheat and chaff shall be separated. The last judgment will be the distinguishing day, when saints and sinners shall be parted for ever.
Matthew Henry Concise Bible Commentary.
HCSB Xrefs: Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds [chaff]first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.
Lk 3:17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.
Mt 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge
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Exactly, and the greek word that is used for "burn up" in Matthew 3:12 and Luke 3:17 is κατακαύσει which means burn up, burn completely, burn down until nothing is left, consume by fire. From kata and kaio; to burn down (to the ground), i.e. Consume wholly -- burn (up, utterly).
Is it bizarre that someone would try to use Matt 3:12 to try to prove that evildoers are tormented by fire but never ever consumed by that fire. But people believe in eternal torment because they are told that it is true. Never mind that the Bible proves the opposite.
Strong's Greek: 2618. κατακαίω (katakaió) -- to burn up
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As you said exactly! This proves that [SIZE="+1"]αποτόμως[/SIZE] is an adverb! You have already acknowledged that [SIZE="+1"]ἀποτομία[/SIZE] is a noun. A noun cannot mean exactly the same thing as an adverb! [SIZE="+1"]ἀποτομία[/SIZE] is a quality of God in opposition to goodness. See Grimm-Thayer, definition of [SIZE="+1"]ἀποτομία[/SIZE], (where opp. to [size=+1]χρηστοτης[/size]...)
Using scripture to insult and judge me. Not relevant to the discussion of Rom 11:22 and the meaning of the word [SIZE="+1"]ἀποτομία[/SIZE]
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A blatantly false accusation. There are many who can document the belief in eternal torment from scripture, and historical evidence such as the ECF, the Jewish Encyclopedia, and Talmud. See my previous posts.
Jesus 28 passages which address the fate of the wicked.
[post=63584700]Jesus and Hell[/post]
Nine Greek sources, the definition of Aion
[post=63469310]Greek sources-[size=+1]αιον[/size]/aion def.[/post]
[post=63353872]Greek sources [size=+1]αιον[/size]/aion def.[/post]
[post=63296315]Greek sources [size=+1]αιον[/size]/aion def.[/post]
Jewish Encyclopedia [JE] Jewish belief in Satan
[post=63462264]JE - Jews and Satan[/post]
JE - Jewish belief in Hell
[post=63318413]JE-Jews and Hell[/post]
[post=63314072]JE-Jews and Hell[/post]
Talmud Jewish belief in hell
[post=63598623]Talmud-Jews and Hell[/post]
[post=63318413]Talmud-Jews and Hell[/post]
BAG Appolumi
[post=63733262]BAG [size=+1]απολλυμι[/size]/appolumi def.[/post]
Vss. where Apoleai does not mean destruction.
[post=63567154]Vss. [size=+1]απολεια[/size]/apoleia not = destruction[/post]
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"Oh look I found 1 verse out of the 28 which does not seem to support ET."
People are not chaff. With the exception of the buring bush and Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, there are no examples from life of something or someone being burned but not destroyed. But let us read further in my exposition.
Twelve (12) passages, in the order they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on eternal punishment of the wicked, passages which specifically mention or imply eternal punishment.
Matt 5: 29-30; 8:12; 13:39-42, 49-50; 18:8-9, 22:2-14; 23:13-15; 25:11-12, 41-46; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:22-31; John 15:6.
[1] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
[2] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
[2] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
When does scripture say the weeping and gnashing of teet h will end?
[3] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[4] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
[4] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
When does scripture say this wailing and gnashing of teeth will end?
[5] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [[SIZE="+1"]αιωνιον[/SIZE]/aiónion] fire.]
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
[6] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
[6] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
When does scripture say this weeping and gnashing of teeth will end?
[7] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
[8] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [[[SIZE="+1"]αιωνιον[/SIZE]/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [[[SIZE="+1"]αιωνιον[/SIZE]/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [[[SIZE="+1"]αιωνιον[/SIZE]/aiónion].
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
[8] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [[[SIZE="+1"]αιωνιον[/SIZE]/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [[[SIZE="+1"]αιωνιον[/SIZE]/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [[[SIZE="+1"]αιωνιον[/SIZE]/aiónion].
Does [[SIZE="+1"]αιωνιον[/SIZE]/aiónion punishment mean only an indeterminate ages long, that will eventually end?
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [[SIZE="+1"]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/SIZE]/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
If the [SIZE="+1"]εις αιωνας αιωνων [/SIZE]torment, of those who worship the beast and his image, and receive the mark of his name, ends at some, indeterminate, time in the future then the smoke is no longer theirs.
Does [SIZE="+1"]εις αιωνας αιωνων[/SIZE] means some definite, finite, “eon of eons,” in the future, when the torment ends? No! 10[sup]100[/sup] eons times, 10[sup]100[/sup] eons times, 10[sup]100[/sup] eons from now, God’s unchanging word will still say, “those who worship the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who worship the image of the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who receive the mark of the beast, they have no rest day or night.”
[9] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
If the unrighteous, in “hades,” eventually die or are destroyed, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?
If those in hell eventually die or leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern them?
[10] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
[11] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us [sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
[11] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us [sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.
[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10[sup]100[/sup] eons times, 10[sup]100[/sup] eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us.”
Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, often unclear, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?
In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.
But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
[12] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
[12] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire?
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BrianJK
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Der Alter, thank you for doing all that research and organization! I read through what you had posted on the various threads.
Like I said before, I kind of feel like I have to accept this doctrine in order to fit in to Christendom. On the 28 points, it seems most of them were geared at refuting Universalism, which I can clearly reject through those references and others.
However, when it comes to proving the eternal conscious torment of the damned, I'm still kind of taking that on blind faith.
All I see when reading Matthew 3:12 is that the damned will "burn up" in unquenchable fire (which, when I first read it years ago, simply made me think of throwing a piece of paper into the "Eternal Flame" at Arlington Cemetery). It seems like you and a lot of other people here are very proficient in Greek. Unfortunately, that's another area I simply have to trust people on. That's not a language I know. When I see long posts in Greek, I can't make much sense of them, but it seems like you argue that "burn up" doesn't necessarily mean what it seems to mean at first glance?
I was never given a timeline in the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" verses, so I never applied one, short or eternal. I'm curious as to what makes these references eternal in time. Is it something I'm missing within the context or is that coupled with your other references?
It seems I remember the language from Mark 9 being a reference from the Old Testament. Something about the worms eating those who have defied God's people never dying, if I remember correctly. Are you aware of a connection? I thought it was a way to illustrate the consequences of dying in sin by using an OT reference that the disciples would quickly comprehend, rather than a literal timetable (if it was a reference, as I thought). I'll have to study this one a bit more. Thanks for pointing it out!
As far as your analysis of the story of the rich man and Lazarus, I think we will simply have to disagree on that. I believe it is a parable. That's not to say that it has no bearing on the question, but we are told that Lazarus was saved having not been washed in the blood of Christ yet has been saved? That always made me think it was a parable. Also, after rereading it, there is a "great gulf" between Lazarus (in the place of comfort) and the rich man (in the place of torment), yet they are able to communicate. I don't see that as an illustration of Heaven and Hell anywhere else in Scripture. These are why I always thought of this passage as a parable. So this is one of those things we'll probably end up disagreeing on. Again, that doesn't mean this passage can't teach everlasting torment... I just don't see it.
Revelation 14:11 seems strong though. I'm sure it's a reference too, so I'll have to check that out. Isaiah I think. But it seems like that might be the verse I'm looking for. I hope so.
Again, thanks for all the work. Don't feel obligated to clarify any of that for me, but if you would like to, it would be much appreciated!
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