The Arminian Interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't even fit Arminianism

intojoy · Aug 21, 2013

I wanna be a moderate Calvinist

Hammster · Aug 21, 2013

intojoy said:
I wanna be a moderate Calvinist

I'm a Calvinist who moderates.

intojoy · Aug 21, 2013

Hammster said:
I'm a Calvinist who moderates.

Yea, I just have to get all my facts straight first.

Clare73 · Aug 22, 2013

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Thank you thank you, I had other terminology in mind, prescriptive, permissive, etc. but I think your response is better than mine would have been.

You're most welcome.

I have some thoughts on the word "permissive."

Do you think the Bible knows anything of a "permissive" will of God
(Ex 4:21, 9:16; 1Sa 18:10; 2Sa 24:1,10; 1Kgs 22:23; Job 12:16; Eze 14:9; Da 4:25)?

Or that the Bible knows anything of a God who unwillingly grants what he does not wish to happen
(Ex 4:11b; Dt 32:39; 1Sa 2:7; 1Kgs 11:14, 23, 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Is 45:7, 53:10, 54:16;
Jer 44:27-28; Lam 3:37-38; Amos 3:6; Zec 11:16; Mt 10:29; Jn 9:2-3; Rev 17:17)?

Or of a God whose will is thwarted by man (2Chr 20:6; Job 9:12, 42:2; Is 14:27; Da 4:35),

or whose plans are conditioned on or determined by the actions of man (Ex 9:16; Ac 4:28),

or who sustains loss because of the actions of man (Jn 6:37; Ac 13:48)?

I find only a God who ordains and decrees (not permits) everything (Lam 3:37),
down to the last detail (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4; Pr 16:33; Mt 10:30).

I find it is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do,
or what is going to happen.

I find the Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do
(Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Dt 2:25, 30;
Jos 11:20; 2Sa 24:1; 1Kgs 22:23; 1Chr 5:26;
Ezr 1:1, 5; Pr 21:21;
Eze 14:9; Da 1:9, 11:36;
Jn 6:37; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17),

and knowing what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen (Is 8:10, 14:24, 46:10).

What I find is that the Bible not only shows God is sovereign, but that he also acts sovereignly.

intojoy · Aug 22, 2013

Clare73 said:
You're most welcome.

I have some thoughts on the word "permissive."

Do you think the Bible knows anything of a "permissive" will of God
(Ex 4:21, 9:16; 1Sa 18:10; 2Sa 24:1,10; 1Kgs 22:23; Job 12:16; Eze 14:9; Da 4:25)?

Or that the Bible knows anything of a God who unwillingly grants what he does not wish to happen
(Ex 4:11b; Dt 32:39; 1Sa 2:7; 1Kgs 11:14, 23, 12:15, 24; Job 1:12; Is 45:7, 53:10, 54:16;
Jer 44:27-28; Lam 3:37-38; Amos 3:6; Zec 11:16; Mt 10:29; Jn 9:2-3; Rev 17:17)?

Or of a God whose will is thwarted by man (2Chr 20:6; Job 9:12, 42:2; Is 14:27; Da 4:35),

or whose plans are conditioned on or determined by the actions of man (Ex 9:16; Ac 4:28),

or who sustains loss because of the actions of man (Jn 6:37; Ac 13:48)?

I find only a God who ordains and decrees (not permits) everything (Lam 3:37),
down to the last detail (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4; Pr 16:33; Mt 10:30).

I find it is men, not the Bible, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do,
or what is going to happen.

I find the Bible presents God as causing men to do what he wills them to do
(Ge 20:6; Ex 3:21, 14:17, 23:27; Dt 2:25, 30;
Jos 11:20; 2Sa 24:1; 1Kgs 22:23; 1Chr 5:26;
Ezr 1:1, 5; Pr 21:21;
Eze 14:9; Da 1:9, 11:36;
Jn 6:37; Ac 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; 2Co 8:16; Rev 17:17),

and as knowing what is going to happen because he has decreed that it shall happen (Is 8:10, 14:24, 46:10).

What I find is that the Bible not only presents God as sovereign, but also as acting sovereignly.

Yet God does put limitations upon himself like with the flood.

And by enabling men to desire him (his elect) men (the elect) can exercise their will to believe the Gospel. Did God limit himself in the atonement to only save the elect? Or was the scope of the atonement greater than that? Did it render all men savable? If the cross was designed to save all men then then God failed in the atonement but it was not designed to save all men, it was designed to render all men savable and that only by men first believing then being saved. The cross alone is not the only saving implementation. Faith is required, election is required and calling is required. The gift of God is not faith, the gift is salvation.

Clare73 · Aug 22, 2013

intojoy said:
Yet God does put limitations upon himself like with the flood.

And by enabling men to desire him (his elect) men (the elect) can exercise their will to believe the Gospel. Did God limit himself in the atonement to only save the elect? Or was the scope of the atonement greater than that? Did it render all men savable? If the cross was designed to save all men then then God failed in the atonement but it was not designed to save all men, it was designed to render all men savable and that only by men first believing then being saved.

Not seeing how this is related to what I stated.

The cross alone is not the only saving implementation. Faith is required, election is required and calling is required. The gift of God is not faith,

Is that in agreement with Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3; Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1?

"who by grace had believed." (Ac 18:27)

"measure of faith God has given you." (Ro 12:3)

"it has been granted to you. . .to believe on Christ." (Php 1:29)

"have received a faith as precious as ours." (1Pe 1:1)

the gift is salvation

It is both faith and salvation,
as well as righteousness (Ro 5:17), and
repentance (Ac 5:31, 11:18; 2Ti 2:25).

sdowney717 · Aug 22, 2013

Ephesians 2 YLT - Also you -- being dead in the - Bible Gateway

8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,
9 not of works, that no one may boast;

reads to me like faith is given as a gift of God to those who 'having been saved'

sdowney717 · Aug 22, 2013

Where comes faith?

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

What did Jesus say about those who are unable to listen to His words?

Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Clearly scriptures point to the ability to hear God as a test of being 'of God'.
Jesus said they were not able to listen to His word as they were not of God having no spiritually enabled ears to hear what Jesus said.

Faith come by hearing God speak!
Faith come by having ears to hear the message God speaks.

2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land— 3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

BBAS 64 · Aug 22, 2013

Seven pages and still no non-reformed exergisis of the op's verse in it's own context....

Clare73 · Aug 22, 2013

sdowney717 said:
8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,
9 not of works, that no one may boast;

Ephesians 2 YLT - Also you -- being dead in the - Bible Gateway

reads to me like faith is given as a gift of God to those who 'having been saved'

Both "through faith" and "not of yourself" refer back to the verb "have been saved."

intojoy · Aug 22, 2013

Clare73 said:
Not seeing how this is related to what I stated.

Is that in agreement with Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3; Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1?

"who by grace had believed." (Ac 18:27)

"measure of faith God has given you." (Ro 12:3)

"it has been granted to you. . .to believe on Christ." (Php 1:29)

"have received a faith as precious as ours." (1Pe 1:1)

It is both faith and salvation,
as well as righteousness (Ro 5:17), and
repentance (Ac 5:31, 11:18; 2Ti 2:25).

I like that last part kid

Skala · Aug 22, 2013

OP anyone?

Metal Minister · Aug 22, 2013

intojoy said:
When you think God elects you because He saw you believed, you are saying God owes it to you to elect you, you took the first step - that's not grace.

Hallelujah! A light shines!

intojoy · Aug 22, 2013

The question I'm asking - myself, is how does God maintain sovereign control of me and elect me when without his grace I cannot choose to follow him? Does he gift me with faith or does he place a limitation on his sovereignty to allow me to exercise my will and choose him? Since I was totally depraved I in and of my own will could not do this so I lean towards God enabling the elect to have the desire to follow God and thereby are divinely enabled to exercise their will to receive the gospel by faith. Because God can and does choose to place limitations upon his divine sovereignty I realize that he can do this in the case of man by giving his elect a desire to follow him. Sorry for my confusion as I seek to know these things and to think about them.
Joy

sdowney717 · Aug 22, 2013

Skala said:
OP anyone?

I am in total agreement with you, I have a prior thread on the same idea.
Bringing out the total craziness of the armenian view. Why would God elect some, not others then wait for the non-elect to repent if He knows they never will?

To give them no excuse, double stamped.
To fill up the measure of their sins.

The passage in Acts 17

25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood[c] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’

This simply says God gave all men a chance to know Him, but they do not seek for Him and are without excuse since they exchange the true God for images of created things worshipping the creature. Not the creator as Paul noted them being very religious with all their temples and idols. Paul tells them all men on the face of the earth have had their times and boundaries pre appointed, which tells me He made circumstances amenable to allow them to seek for and maybe find Him. But they never will without His direct intervention personally into each of their lives. So at the judgement they will be without excuse all the more.

Paul is now giving them another chance with God, telling them to repent and believe the gospel. To reject this call is a final blow, as scripture says the first time He overlooked.

30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Clare73 · Aug 23, 2013

Skala said:
OP anyone?

It is devastating to the Armenian argument of conditional election.

Clare73 · Aug 23, 2013

intojoy said:
intojoy said:

Clare73 said:

"who by grace had believed." (Ac 18:27)

"measure of faith God has given you." (Ro 12:3)

"it has been granted to you. . .to believe on Christ." (Php 1:29)

"have received a faith as precious as ours." (1Pe 1:1)

It is both faith and salvation,
as well as righteousness (Ro 5:17), and
repentance (Ac 5:31, 11:18; 2Ti 2:25).

Click to expand...

I like that last part kid

Click to expand...

The question I'm asking - myself, is how does God maintain sovereign control of me and elect me when without his grace I cannot choose to follow him? Does he gift me with faith or does he place a limitation on his sovereignty to allow me to exercise my will and choose him? Since I was totally depraved I in and of my own will could not do this so I lean towards God enabling the elect to have the desire to follow God and thereby are divinely enabled to exercise their will to receive the gospel by faith.

It goes deeper than an exercise of the will.

The Holy Spirit changes our disposition in his gift of the new birth.

Our will acts according to our disposition.
The unregenerated are disposed toward sin, and
the regenerated are disposed toward God.

Free will is simply choosing without external constraint or force.
But your disposition determines your choice.

Hope that helps.

guuila · Aug 23, 2013

Clare73 said:
It is devastating to the Armenian argument of conditional election.

Hey... don't bring the Armenians into this! ^_^

guuila · Aug 23, 2013

Clare73 said:
It goes deeper than an exercise of the will.

The Holy Spirit changes our disposition in his gift of the new birth.

Our will acts according to our disposition.
The unregenerated are disposed toward sin, and
the regenerated are disposed toward God.

Free will is simply choosing without external constraint or force.
But your disposition determines your choice.

Hope that helps.

Exactly. I've said this a million times. The problem is the heart. The heart must be changed so that it will desire and have affection for Christ. That is the obstacle that must be overcome, which takes sovereign, regenerating grace. Once that happens, the desires are changed, thus the will chooses rightly. The synergistic scheme makes the human heart to be better than it really is, and in synergism there is no place for regeneration. It's simply not needed since according to them, the heart of stone is capable of loving God.

Clare73 · Aug 23, 2013

sdowney717 said:
I am in total agreement with you, I have a prior thread on the same idea.
Bringing out the total craziness of the armenian view.
Why would God elect some, not others then wait for the non-elect to repent if He knows they never will?

To give them no excuse, double stamped.
To fill up the measure of their sins.

Totally Biblical (Ge 15:16, 18:20; Jonah 1:2; Zec 5:6; Mt 23:32; 1Th 2:16; Ro 2:5).

The Arminian Interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't even fit Arminianism

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