Hell: I am not seeing eternal torment in the scriptures

Eternal Life and Immortality – Only Available through the Gospel

The offer to receive eternal life as opposed to suffering everlasting destruction is what the gospel of Christ is all about. We see this plainly expressed in this passage:

2TIMOTHY 1:10

But (God’s grace) has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”

Notice that life and immortality are only available through the gospel. What exactly is “the gospel?” The gospel literally means “good news.” Its main message is summed up in the famous passage John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Note, once again, what is clearly being contrasted in these passages:

In John 3:16 perish is contrasted with the gift of eternal life; in 2Timothy 1:10 death is contrasted with both immortality and life, which are said to be made available through the gospel. If the eternal torture doctrine were true, these verses would be contrasting eternal life and eternal life being tortured, or immortality and immortality in fiery torment. I realize this sounds absurd, but the bible would certainly speak in such honest, blatant terms if this teaching were true. Or do you think God would be misleading or ambiguous about such an important issue in his Holy Scriptures?

If the soul didn't cease to exist,it would live forever,and scripture teaches that only the saved will live forever.......

I don't think there's a verse in the bible that tells us about the real suffering in hell directly. All we see are scattered scriptures. I managed to get some of these...

Job 16:17
Psalms 88:3-6 forgotten by God in darkness...
No peace: prince of peace: isaiah 57:21
No hope: Isaiah 38:18
No love: God is love
Psalms 11:6
Vengeance of eternal fire : Jude 1:7
Deuteronomy 29:23[bless and do not curse]
Place of fear Isaiah 24:17
So really, how do you explain a place of no peace, no love, eternal fire, fear, no water, darkness, hunger, no hope....n that's forever!!!

"it's worm never dies" scientifically, when a maggot is feeding on flesh n the flesh is finished, the maggot dies but here this maggot never dies meaning, this flesh never gets consumed. The situations there in are supposed to kill you but you don't die, it's forever...ISNT THAT TORMENTING ENOUGH?

n2thelight said:

Eternal Life and Immortality – Only Available through the Gospel

The offer to receive eternal life as opposed to suffering everlasting destruction is what the gospel of Christ is all about. We see this plainly expressed in this passage:

2TIMOTHY 1:10

But (God’s grace) has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.”

Notice that life and immortality are only available through the gospel. What exactly is “the gospel?” The gospel literally means “good news.” Its main message is summed up in the famous passage John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Note, once again, what is clearly being contrasted in these passages:

In John 3:16 perish is contrasted with the gift of eternal life; in 2Timothy 1:10 death is contrasted with both immortality and life, which are said to be made available through the gospel. If the eternal torture doctrine were true, these verses would be contrasting eternal life and eternal life being tortured, or immortality and immortality in fiery torment. I realize this sounds absurd, but the bible would certainly speak in such honest, blatant terms if this teaching were true. Or do you think God would be misleading or ambiguous about such an important issue in his Holy Scriptures?

If the soul didn't cease to exist,it would live forever,and scripture teaches that only the saved will live forever.......

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Exactly. It is so clear, I wonder why people don't understand this.

If God really did create an awful place of eternal suffering and He planned this as the penalty for sin, Why Didn't He Tell Anyone About It?
Dr. Strangelove: Of course, the whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you keep it a secret! Why didn't you tell the world, EH?

The Bible never, not once, says that wicked people go to hell when they die where they will be kept alive and tortured forever.

Hillsage said:

As always, we are in agreement about eternal purposeless torture. But if the price of sin is eternal annihilation then Jesus didn't fully pay the price for sin, for anybody.

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According to the Bible, the wages (or price, as you say) of sin is death. Jesus did fully pay the price for sin when He died on the cross. He was resurrected, we also can be resurrected to eternal life. But those who reject Him will not be resurrected to eternal life. They will die the second death. but the second death will not come to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ. So they will live forever. They will have eternal life. Those who perish will not have eternal life. People make this more difficult than it is.

I have annihilated any further attempts on my part

to communicate with Annihilationists, and the brick wall of their

"The wages of sin is Annihilationism" mantra.

Der Alter said:

Unlike you I do not find a secular dictionary a reliable source for Biblical interpretation.

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Unlike you I check ALL sources for inspiration.

Der Alter said:

assumptions/presuppositions does not make them correct

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That is why you do not take the translations of superstitous men as Gospel!

Der Alter said:

You have provided no credible evidence that the 1917 Jewish Publication Society translation of Ezek 32;21 was incorrect. Eze 32:21 [SIZE=+1]ידברו 1696 shall speak לו אלי40 The strong גבורים1368 among the mighty מתוך8432 to him out of the midst שׁאול7585 of hell את854 with עזריו5826 them that help ירדו3381 him: they are gone down, שׁכבו7901 they lie הערלים6189 uncircumcised, חללי2491 slain חרב׃2719 by the sword [/SIZE]This is the correct translation.

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Do you read HEBREW? Lets take each word one by one and not interject our own.

Eze 32:21 The strongH410 among the mightyH1368 shall speakH1696 to him out of the midstH4480 H8432 of hellH7585 withH854 them that helpH5826 him: they are gone down,H3381 they lieH7901 uncircumcised,H6189 slainH2491 by the sword.H2719

גבורים 410 adj./n. hero, protagonist; valiant, valorous, brave

ידברו 1696 shall speak (You have quoted that correctly)

אלי40 nm. deity 1st word(two words not one)2nd word 1368 לו pron. him, to him, to it (3rd person sing.masc.)

H1368 gibbôr Intensive from the same as H1397; powerful; by implication champion, chief

H8432 prep. from, out of, from the inside

שׁאול7585 of Sheol (You have quoted that correctly)

את854 with Often with another preposition prefixed

H5826 ‛âzar protect or aid

H3381 ירדו to go down
שׁכבו7901 v. lie down (You quoted that correctly)

הערלים6189 adj./n. uncircumcised, Gentile; unpruned (tree)
חללי2491 nm. dead, fatal casualty, fallen

חרב׃2719 by the sword (You quoted that correctly)
WOW! four you have correctly quoted!

Corrected it then says:
The chief gods [protagonist] of you shall speak to him, with their aids; from the inside of Sheol they have gone down, they lie down, the Gentile, dead by the sword.

Der Alter said:

The eli among the g'borim are gentiles, not chief gods,

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You are way out in left field on that:
H410 אל 'êl Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god)

gibbôr Intensive from the same as H1397; powerful; by implication chief

Wowest....I love the way y'all wanna deeply analyze this stuff, close to the debate about the existence of God...infact no difference.....it's kinda creepy #RunsOff

he-man said:

Unlike you I check ALL sources for inspiration. That is why you do not take the translations of superstitous men as Gospel! Do you read HEBREW? Lets take each word one by one and not interject our own.

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False biased accusation. As I have shown I consult many credible, verifiable sources, such as BDB, TWOT, Louw-Nida. Do you know what those are? As a matter of fact I do read Hebrew. I studied it at the grad level a few decades ago. What are your qualifications in Hebrew? I identify all my sources, you dont!

You can copy/paste from anonymous sources until your keyboard falls apart, but nothing you have posted has proved that the JPS, or other sources, I have quoted, are wrong. Do you even know how to do that? Disproving the JPS would require quoting from credible scholarly sources showing that their translations are incorrect. Just saying "Nuh Uh" and quoting something that translates the passage differently does not prove anything except that you cherry pick sources. That is what you have done more than once.

Eze 32:21 The strongH410 among the mightyH1368 shall speakH1696 to him out of the midstH4480 H8432 of hellH7585 withH854 them that helpH5826 him: they are gone down,H3381 they lieH7901 uncircumcised,H6189 slainH2491 by the sword.H2719

גבורים 410 adj./n. hero, protagonist; valiant, valorous, brave

ידברו 1696 shall speak (You have quoted that correctly)

אלי40 nm. deity 1st word(two words not one)2nd word 1368 לו pron. him, to him, to it (3rd person sing.masc.)

H1368 gibbôr Intensive from the same as H1397; powerful; by implication champion, chief

H8432 prep. from, out of, from the inside

שׁאול7585 of Sheol (You have quoted that correctly)

את854 with Often with another preposition prefixed

H5826 ‛âzar protect or aid

H3381 ירדו to go down
שׁכבו7901 v. lie down (You quoted that correctly)

הערלים6189 adj./n. uncircumcised, Gentile; unpruned (tree)
חללי2491 nm. dead, fatal casualty, fallen

חרב׃2719 by the sword (You quoted that correctly)
WOW! four you have correctly quoted!

Corrected it then says:
The chief gods [protagonist] of you shall speak to him, with their aids; from the inside of Sheol they have gone down, they lie down, the Gentile, dead by the sword.

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Wow! Another false accusation. Everything I quoted was from a credible source, quoted exactly as it appears in the source. So I did not quote anything wrong or incorrectly! I said before, which you have ignored, this quote proves that the [size=+1]אלי גבורים[/size]/eli gibborim, are not gods in any sense they are only dead gentiles.

You are way out in left field on that:
H410 אל 'êl Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god)

gibbôr Intensive from the same as H1397; powerful; by implication chief

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I have not quoted anything wrong! What are your qualifications to tell me that what I quoted from credible sources is wrong? How many semester hours of Hebrew do you have and why should I take your interpretation over the JPS, NIV, ASV, CEV, NASB, RSV, K&D and NET?

In Jer 32:18 and Isaiah 10:21, when YHWH is called [size=+1]אל גבור [/size]/el gibbor, do you think it means "The chief god [protagonist]?"


Here is the definition of [SIZE="+1"]אל[/SIZE]/el from Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon one of, if not, the best available. Strong's is wrong or you quoted it incorrectly.

Timothew said:

According to the Bible, the wages (or price, as you say) of sin is death. Jesus did fully pay the price for sin when He died on the cross. He was resurrected, we also can be resurrected to eternal life. But those who reject Him will not be resurrected to eternal life. They will die the second death. but the second death will not come to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ. So they will live forever. They will have eternal life. Those who perish will not have eternal life. People make this more difficult than it is.

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1CO 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

If there is a second death that is forever then death is never destroyed. As you know I believe that the lake of fire is the second death...or the last death, or the death of "death and hell" just like scripture plainly says...IMO After the death of "death and hell" "all things shall be made new" 21:5 at some point in God's redemptive plan for all of his creation. You see fire as annihilating, and I see it as purgative. Destroying all that cannot be allowed in God's consummate plan of the ages. God hate sin and loves sinners...thank God.

Hillsage said:

[If there is a second death that is forever then death is never destroyed. As you know I believe that the lake of fire is the second death...or the last death, or the death of "death and hell" just like scripture plainly says...IMO After the death of "death and hell" "all things shall be made new" 21:5 at some point in God's redemptive plan for all of his creation. You see fire as annihilating, and I see it as purgative. Destroying all that cannot be allowed in God's consummate plan of the ages. God hate sin and loves sinners...thank God.

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How can something die, when it has no life, it is not alive, such as "death" and "hell?" Neither one has or ever can die a first death, so they cannot die a second death. Unless someone wants to consider this figurative so it will fit their preconceptions.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called the second death but it is not synonymous with death or annihilation. Three living things are cast into the LOF but they do not die, nor are they annihilated, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. At least one of them, the false prophet, is a person

Der Alter said:

How can something die, when it has no life, it is not alive, such as "death" and "hell?" Neither one has or ever can die a first death, so they cannot die a second death. Unless someone wants to consider this figurative so it will fit their preconceptions.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called the second death but it is not synonymous with death or annihilation. Three living things are cast into the LOF but they do not die, nor are they annihilated, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. At least one of them, the false prophet, is a person Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and eve

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Have you no honour?

Pretty hard for you to say the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies are a devil unless the word simply means adversary!

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his hosts.
στράτευμα armament, army, host; archaic an army Concise Oxford English Dictionary

Psa 149:6Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;

7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, punishments upon the people;

8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Der Alter said:

How can something die, when it has no life, it is not alive, such as "death" and "hell?" Neither one has or ever can die a first death, so they cannot die a second death. Unless someone wants to consider this figurative so it will fit their preconceptions.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called the second death but it is not synonymous with death or annihilation. Three living things are cast into the LOF but they do not die, nor are they annihilated, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. At least one of them, the false prophet, is a person

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever​

​

​

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he-man said:

Have you no honour?

Pretty hard for you to say the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies are a devil unless the word simply means adversary!

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his hosts.
στράτευμα armament, army, host; archaic an army Concise Oxford English Dictionary

Psa 149:6Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;

7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, punishments upon the people;

8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

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How does any of this address my post above? The only vs. I quoted was Rev 20:10 and you don't even mention it in this post.

Anto9us said:

I have annihilated any further attempts on my part

to communicate with Annihilationists, and the brick wall of their

"The wages of sin is Annihilationism" mantra.

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Actually, According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. Which is exactly what we have been trying to tell you. But I know that you want to continue to believe that the wages of sin is for sinners to be tortured alive forever in Hell when they die. So don't let us Bible Believers prevent you from believing in the Never Never Land of Torture.

Have a nice life.

Hillsage said:

1CO 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

If there is a second death that is forever then death is never destroyed. As you know I believe that the lake of fire is the second death...or the last death, or the death of "death and hell" just like scripture plainly says...IMO After the death of "death and hell" "all things shall be made new" 21:5 at some point in God's redemptive plan for all of his creation. You see fire as annihilating, and I see it as purgative. Destroying all that cannot be allowed in God's consummate plan of the ages. God hate sin and loves sinners...thank God.

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I have no arguments with Universalism. I want it to be true, I just don't see the evidence that everyone will inherit eternal life when the Bible says that the wicked will perish and will be no more. The passage you are referring to is for those who are in Christ. Their enemies will be destroyed, the last enemy of those who are in Christ is death, WE will be resurrected and never die again. God doesn't destroy death for those who are opposing Him.

Nice try Timothew. But people don't care as much about the actual Word of God as they do their bank accounts.

Churches NEED hell as the stick to go with the carrot of heaven. They won't be able to maintain attendance and revenue without it!

Der Alter said:

How does any of this address my post above? The only vs. I quoted was Rev 20:10 and you don't even mention it in this post.

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In hell the ancient form of death, which was one of the enemies destroyed by Christ, shall not continue, but a death of a far different kind reigns there, "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord": an abiding testimony of the victory of Christ.A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.

How about we read the rest of the story and not just one verse. Who do you think the frogs are?
Rev 16:13 — Then I saw three evil spirits like frogs come out of the mouths of the serpent, the beast, and the false prophet.

Rev 20:8 — He will go out to deceive Gog and Magog, the nations in the four corners of the earth, and gather them for war. They will be as numerous as the grains of sand on the seashore.

Do you think the fowls left some to be punished in a destructive fire after they had eaten their flesh? Wouldn't that simply cremate them into ashes and smoke.

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his hosts.
στράτευμα armament, army, host; archaic an army Concise Oxford English Dictionary

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. [AND CREMATED]

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Clairvoyance said:

Nice try Timothew. But people don't care as much about the actual Word of God as they do their bank accounts.

Churches NEED hell as the stick to go with the carrot of heaven. They won't be able to maintain attendance and revenue without it!

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Nonsense! I have been a Christian for a few decades and in the ministry 1 decade less. I have attended churches in five states and preached in churches in four states and one foreign country. I have only heard one sermon about Hell and I preached it almost 3 decades ago. The title was "Lessons from Hell University" and OBTW I did not get one penny from the church where I preached it. I think you guys need to get you some new material and make sure it is true the next time.

I'll try to dialogue with you again Der Alter. But if you again try to talk down to me from your high chair of academia I again will stop responding to any of your posts.

Der Alter said:

How can something die, when it has no life, it is not alive, such as "death" and "hell?"

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I don't know and neither do you, which is evidenced by the above 'in bold'. But I don't 'have to' know, I only have to believe what scripture says, and believe 'in consistency' with it. I believe I meet my requirements, but maybe not yours.

Neither one has or ever can die a first death, so they cannot die a second death. Unless someone wants to consider this figurative so it will fit their preconceptions.

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Again, as per 'bold', I believe you've answered your own question IMO.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called the second death but it is not synonymous with death or annihilation. Three living things are cast into the LOF but they do not die, nor are they annihilated, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. At least one of them, the false prophet, is a person.

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Part I agree with and part is your opinion. My opinion is death/thanatos of Revelation, is the same as in 1Cor which says death/thanatos is the last enemy to be destroyed. It's in my bible, and it's my understanding of the Greek. I feel I have the Spirit's assurance and therefore it is my theology.

Timothew said:

I have no arguments with Universalism. I want it to be true, I just don't see the evidence that everyone will inherit eternal life when the Bible says that the wicked will perish and will be no more.

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I know you don't dislike UR. And your heart to 'want it to be true', is so much better than the heart of those who don't want it to be.

The passage you are referring to is for those who are in Christ. Their enemies will be destroyed, the last enemy of those who are in Christ is death, WE will be resurrected and never die again. God doesn't destroy death for those who are opposing Him.

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I believe you're reading that into the text. How does he destroy death in your opinion? Annihilation is simply 'death forever' IMO.

Unlike your quote above, I believe ALL will be resurrected. Those "in Christ" and also those 'out'. But the ones coming out don't come to annihilation, but judgment/krisis.

JOH 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when ALL who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Krisis/judgments are not 'judments' of execution for things done, but judgments of 'decisions' concerning what was done/said. Eg. the bema judgments for "every word" "every work", but not for knowing or not knowing Jesus as savior.

MAT 12:36 'And I say to you, that every idle word that men may speak, they shall give for it a reckoning/LOGOS in a day of judgment/krisis;

Personal thought: When speaking of "perishable" I believe their is an understanding of the word which goes beyond a mere 'life/death' definition. Perishables go in the ice box. Not because their spirit/soul is gone...which they 'allegorically' are...but because the food decays sooner in the heat. Your spirit doesn't perish neither does your soul. The wages of sin is perishable death of the flesh IMO. Yes, the soul dies, but the soul does not perish/rot. It dies because it 'becomes rotten'. I can't give a chapter verse for my 'personal thoughts' here either.

I ask - of all your High Mightinesses who are still debating this -- what is the nature of the DEATH

that Adam and Eve experienced in the garden

upon violating the commandment NOT to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

The commandment was TOLD by God to Adam only - we can only INFER that Eve "heard it from Adam" and also that along the way "sumpn extree" was hooked on to it -- i.e.

"That if ye TOUCH IT - ye shall die"

I see nowhere that God said not to TOUCH IT, just not to eat it - but Eve said otherwise

So ye who SING OF DEATH - what kind of "death" occurred when the forbidden fruit was eaten - for God had surely said "in the day thou shalt eat of it - thou shalt surely DIE!"

Were Adam and Eve ANNIHILATED on that day back in the garden - and all this supposed existence of ours and "life" in 2013 has been but an idle dream?

Has there been NO HISTORY since the day Adam "surely died" - and therefore nothing but DEATH

and therefore no life of Christ who did in fact die on the cross but was NOT in fact annihilated?

I think all of your high mightinesses should address these issues - I consider no man a "Pope" or infallible authority to be a "Mediator" between any of us and God

Academia - schmachademia - we are all equals here

I assume we can all read the Bible and use a concordance

I can learn stuff from Der Alter and Dr Steve with his phd but I will ALWAYS weigh everything against Scripture, Reason, Experience and Tradition.

I don't SWALLOW anything

I sat thru 4 years of Latin in High School, six semesters of Greek in college, I never formally studied Hebrew but have been looking at concordances for over 40 years

and there is nobody that is going to "snow me" about the Bible

I can and I have learned things from Hillsage and seen "the one Baptism" in a different light

I REFUSE TO BELIEVE in "forced dichotomies" of

"annihilation"
"eternal torment"
and now even "universalism"

I see yer THREE and RAISE YA ONE

I have a thick notebook of Origen's work printed out - he is NOT pinned down to ANY of these three "supposed ONLY things one can come up with"

If anybody thinks Origen simply "spiritualized away" the scriptures - consider his own life - he certainly did not "spiritualize" the passage about "if something causes you to sin - hack it off and throw it way"

He took that quite literally - I sure wouldn't do it.

I will take annihilationists off of Ignore if anyone will actually deal with DEATH as a REALITY in the garden

and answer me "Do you think God LIED when he said

"in the day thou shalt eat of it - thou shalt surely DIE?"

Will ye LOOK at the "stripes" - 'few' and 'many' - and realize this is a word-picture of CORRECTIVE PUNISHMENT in the afterlife --

an ALTERNATIVE to your bloody ETERNAL TORMENT - yer easy UNIVERSALISM - or your "merciful" ANNIHILATIONISM _

which, while keeping people from suffering, still falls way short of God "willing everyone to come to salvation" - "not willing that any should PERISH"?