Revelation: The Bride, The Beast & Babylon

Stryder06 · Aug 13, 2013

Hentenza said:
At the time of the reformation no apostasy occurred. Some remain with the Roman church while others moved to other churches.

Guess we understand apostasy differently.

lol No. No evidence for a great apostasy exists and the man of lawlessness, who will be revealed during the tribulation, is yet to be revealed. Secondly, the restrainer, which is the Holy Spirit, is still present among the faithful.

41k denominations ^_^

Christ started one church with one truth, and that split into 41k groups all professing a different truth while claiming to serve the same God. And the man of sin has been revealed. And the restrainer isn't the Holy Spirit. I do believe it has already been shown that the restrainer was Rome.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 13, 2013

Stryder06 said:
A couple thousands years off, but that's ok.

Been proven. It being accepted by the majority is another matter. Choice of truth is the reason for the 41k or so denominations in the world, which ought to be proof enough of apostasy.

Including the sabbatarian SDA and MJ denominations

http://www.christianforums.com/t5546846-54/
How damaging is the Messianic Movement

How damaging is the Messianic Movement to the Gospel of Jesus Christ going forth?

Now before anyone starts getting up in arms, I am not referring to the Jewish believers who have a Messianic Jewish style of worship.
What I am referring to is the growing number of Gentiles, that were formerly involved with the church, who now have decided to become "Messianic”.

.

Hentenza · Aug 13, 2013

Stryder06 said:
Guess we understand apostasy differently.

How do you understand apostasy?

41k denominations

Christ started one church with one truth, and that split into 41k groups all professing a different truth while claiming to serve the same God.

That number is bogus. The Barrett report has been debunked ad nauseum.

And the man of sin has been revealed.

Who is the man of lawlessness? Might as well be specific. I don't want to assume that I know what Adventists believe.

And the restrainer isn't the Holy Spirit. I do believe it has already been shown that the restrainer was Rome.

The restrainer is not Rome. Rome has never "restrained" anything. lol The restrainer is the Holy Spirit, who indwells the believer. Remove Him and you remove the counselor. Many would indeed apostasy without the HS.

Stryder06 · Aug 13, 2013

Hentenza said:
How do you understand apostasy?

A falling away from truth.

That number is bogus. The Barrett report has been debunked ad nauseum.

Don't know what the Barrett report is. That report was by the CSGC. Whether or not they're on in the same I couldn't say. While I thought that was a bit ridiculous, I do recall having heard someone say there were about 30k protestant denominations or something like that. Either way, be it 41 or 41k, the fact is that there is no way anyone could rightfully think that such division is the work of God.

Who is the man of lawlessness? Might as well be specific. I don't want to assume that I know what Adventists believe.

You don't have to assume. It's been discussed, how do you say it? Ad nauseum

The restrainer is not Rome. Rome has never "restrained" anything. lol The restrainer is the Holy Spirit, who indwells the believer. Remove Him and you remove the counselor. Many would indeed apostasy without the HS.

Rome restrained Christians for sometime did they not? But I do agree that the Holy Spirit will be withdrawn. He will be removed from the earth however, leaving wicked me to the deceptions of the Devil, as they march towards perdition.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 13, 2013

Tis fun watching a Baptist and SDA debate!

Wonder where the RCs are?

.

Hentenza · Aug 13, 2013

Stryder06 said:
A falling away from truth.

Which truth?

Don't know what the Barrett report is. That report was by the CSGC. Whether or not they're on in the same I couldn't say. While I thought that was a bit ridiculous, I do recall having heard someone say there were about 30k protestant denominations or something like that. Either way, be it 41 or 41k, the fact is that there is no way anyone could rightfully think that such division is the work of God.

The Barrett report fuels those numbers across the internet including CSGC. The same report claims that there are 218 Adventist denominations. lol

Secondly, your denomination is separatist and part of the problem. God is fully aware of what is going on here.

You don't have to assume. It's been discussed, how do you say it? Ad nauseum

So why don't just you name him/her? It should not be difficult for you.

Rome restrained Christians for sometime did they not? But I do agree that the Holy Spirit will be withdrawn. He will be removed from the earth however, leaving wicked me to the deceptions of the Devil, as they march towards perdition.

Which is why the HS is the restrainer, not Rome. You have to remember that during the middle ages, prior to the reformation, Rome only controlled Christians in Europe. A good numbers of Christians were in the East. The "great" apostasy is not just a western demise.

Stryder06 · Aug 13, 2013

Hentenza said:
Which truth?

There's only one truth, and it's in the bible.

The Barrett report fuels those numbers across the internet including CSGC. The same report claims that there are 218 Adventist denominations. lol

There may be. Don't forget, there are plenty of Adventist, denominations, but they are seperate from the Seventh Day Adventist one.

Secondly, your denomination is separatist and part of the problem. God is fully aware of what is going on here.

My denomination isn't part of the problem. We're part of the solution. Why do you think there's so few of us

And God is aware because He's God. That doesn't mean He's happy with it, but love allows for freedom of choice, so God allows men to do what they will, even if it's contrary to His will for them.

So why don't just you name him/her? It should not be difficult for you.

For the same reason you keep asking. I already know. And you already know. Naming him will simply lead to a fruitless discussion about how wrong I am, and how full of hate I am.

Which is why the HS is the restrainer, not Rome. You have to remember that during the middle ages, prior to the reformation, Rome only controlled Christians in Europe. A good numbers of Christians were in the East. The "great" apostasy is not just a western demise.

Who said anything about the middle ages? I'm thinking about during the time of the Apostles.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 13, 2013

Hentenza said:
Rome restrained Christians for sometime did they not? But I do agree that the Holy Spirit will be withdrawn. He will be removed from the earth however, leaving wicked me to the deceptions of the Devil, as they march towards perdition.

Hentenza said:
Which is why the HS is the restrainer, not Rome. You have to remember that during the middle ages, prior to the reformation, Rome only controlled Christians in Europe. A good numbers of Christians were in the East. The "great" apostasy is not just a western demise.

Would make for a good discussion :angel:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2561522-8/
Who is the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians?

I have heard many theories as to who the restrainer is in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7:

"6 And now you know what is restraining him [from being revealed at this time]; it is so that he may be manifested (revealed) in his own [appointed] time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness (that hidden principle of rebellion against constituted authority) is already at work in the world, [but it is] restrained only until he who restrains is taken out of the way."

I am curious as who my fellow eschatologists think the restrainer is.

God Bless!

You may know this already and just posted it for discussion...

But I will play...

Many theorize it is the Holy Spirit. I do not subscribe to such a theory. My reasoning being is that God will not take away what the nation does not currently have. If they had the Holy Spirit, that would complete the spiritual kingdom of God and we would not be having this discussion.

At any rate, I believe that it is the mighty archangel, Michael, the great protector of Israel who is called back by God and therefore "stops" his restraining of Satan. Therefore, allowing the Antichrist to make desolate the temple by declaring himself God in Jerusalem.

How's that?

.

tz620q · Aug 13, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
Tis fun watching a Baptist and SDA debate!

Wonder where the RCs are?

.

Sorry, we were all off doing our Gregorian chants and toking on incense. :liturgy:

Hentenza · Aug 13, 2013

Stryder06 said:
There's only one truth, and it's in the bible.

Which is?

There may be. Don't forget, there are plenty of Adventist, denominations, but they are seperate from the Seventh Day Adventist one.

If you say so.

My denomination isn't part of the problem. We're part of the solution. Why do you think there's so few of us

Ok then.

And God is aware because He's God. That doesn't mean He's happy with it, but love allows for freedom of choice, so God allows men to do what they will, even if it's contrary to His will for them.

Sure. However, since I think we both agree that salvation is by faith, and since there are people of faith in most denominations, then the denomination "problem" is not really a problem, isn't it?

For the same reason you keep asking. I already know. And you already know. Naming him will simply lead to a fruitless discussion about how wrong I am, and how full of hate I am.

But the argument is that you claim that the man of lawlessness has already been named and my argument is that it has not so it is critical for you to prove your point by naming him/her so that we can explore the answer.

BTW- Nowhere in scripture does it claim that the man of lawlessness is an office not a person.

Who said anything about the middle ages? I'm thinking about during the time of the Apostles.

Since the church of Rome had no primacy until the 5th century then I don;t see your point. There was no "great" apostasy during the time of the apostles.

Stryder06 · Aug 13, 2013

Hentenza said:
Which is?

The gospel of Jesus Christ.

If you say so.

Ok then.

Sure. However, since I think we both agree that salvation is by faith, and since there are people of faith in most denominations, then the denomination "problem" is not really a problem, isn't it?

Of course not. For me, it goes without saying that the body of believers who make up the faithful count as the church, despite their denomination. God know the heart and He knows who belongs to him.

So even in the midst of apostasy, there will always be some who remain faithful to God. Kind of like Elijah, when he cried out to God that his life be taken because he thought he was the only one left in Israel who was faithful. God told him that he still had 7k who were faithful.

But the argument is that you claim that the man of lawlessness has already been named and my argument is that it has not so it is critical for you to prove your point by naming him/her so that we can explore the answer.

So you want to explore how the Pope is the lawless one?

BTW- Nowhere in scripture does it claim that the man of lawlessness is an office not a person.

It's understood based on the characteristics pointed out.

Since the church of Rome had no primacy until the 5th century then I don;t see your point. There was no "great" apostasy during the time of the apostles.

I wasn't speaking specifically about Rome either. Apostasy is a falling away from truth, and that is something that happens gradually over time. Given how Paul spoke of false teachers who would not spare the flock, and how Christ spoke of those who claimed to be Jews, but weren't, I believe the Apostasy was in motion, perhaps not coming to full fruition until the 5th century when Rome gained primacy.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 13, 2013

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Tis fun watching a Baptist and SDA debate!

Wonder where the RCs are?

tz620q said:
Sorry, we were all off doing our Gregorian chants and toking on incense.

Back in the '60s, we use to toke on something else and burned incense to hide the smell while listening to "weird" music....

http://www.christianforums.com/t7582599/
Do you use incense in prayer and worship?

Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah

.

Click to expand...

It is unnecessary, it STINKS, and therefore I don't do it.

incense and peppermints "strawberry alarm clock / vibravoid" (psychedelic trip) - YouTube

Hentenza · Aug 13, 2013

Stryder06 said:
The gospel of Jesus Christ.

Most mainstream churches have the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Of course not. For me, it goes without saying that the body of believers who make up the faithful count as the church, despite their denomination. God know the heart and He knows who belongs to him.

So even in the midst of apostasy, there will always be some who remain faithful to God. Kind of like Elijah, when he cried out to God that his life be taken because he thought he was the only one left in Israel who was faithful. God told him that he still had 7k who were faithful.

We are not in midst of apostasy. When the great apostasy comes it will be unmistakable. Millions will lose their faith.

So you want to explore how the Pope is the lawless one?

It's understood based on the characteristics pointed out.

An office cannot be the man of lawlessness. That in the future a particular pope turns out to be the man of lawlessness is a different issue all together. Since the man of lawlessness has not yet been revealed then it would be conjecture to attempt to guess.

I wasn't speaking specifically about Rome either. Apostasy is a falling away from truth, and that is something that happens gradually over time. Given how Paul spoke of false teachers who would not spare the flock, and how Christ spoke of those who claimed to be Jews, but weren't, I believe the Apostasy was in motion, perhaps not coming to full fruition until the 5th century when Rome gained primacy.

The church grew by leaps and bounds in the first 5 centuries after Christ without the intervention of the church in Rome so I still do not see where you could claim that an apostasy of great consequence occurred. Secondly, even after the fall of the Roman empire and the coronation of Charlemagne in the early 9th century, Christianity flourished both in the west and the east. Again, I still do not see where you could claim that a great apostasy occurred. Even at the height of the Roman church in Europe (middle to late middle ages) no great apostasy occurred either. In order for the great apostasy that the bible speaks of to have occurred a large number of people (not just institutions) have to lose their faith and until today there is not a single or series of historical events that even hint at a great apostasy.

Sorry brother but you have nothing to back up a historical apostasy.

Leuko Petra · Aug 13, 2013

Hentenza said:
2 Thess. 2
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the [d]apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

The apostasy is yet to happen and the man of lawlessness is yet to be revealed. This is prophecy not history. Also, quote mines do not help your case.

Brother hentenza, as was earlier shown, from Historcal commentators, it has already come -

http://www.christianforums.com/t7766317-2/#post63948599

Now please consider Baptist Commentator John Gill:

"2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work,.... Or "the mystery of that wicked one", as the Syriac; meaning either antichrist himself, and the spirit of antichrist, which were already in the world, 1Jo_2:18, "mystery" being one of the names of antichrist, Rev_17:5 and anciently this word was engraven on the mitres of the popes of Rome: or the evil doctrines and practices of antichrist may be intended; for as the doctrine of the Gospel is called a mystery, and the mystery of godliness; so the doctrines and practices of antichrist may be called the mystery of iniquity, especially as they were now secretly spread, imbibed, and practised: the foundations of it were now laying in the church by false teachers; for errors and heresies of every sort, respecting the person and offices of Christ, and in opposition to them, were now broached; idolatry, and holding communion with idolaters, now obtained; worshipping of angels was used by some; and superstition and will worship, worship after the commandments of men, were practised; days, and months, and years, distinguished by Jews and Pagans, and difference of meats, were observed; celibacy and virginity began to be admired and commended; dominion and magistracy were despised, and church authority contemned, and many, as Diotrephes, loved to have the pre-eminence; and the doctrine of justification by the works of the law was industriously spread, and zealously preached and received; all which laid the foundation, and are the life and soul of popery:

only he who now letteth, will let, until he be taken out of the way; that is, the Roman empire and Roman emperors, and which were by degrees entirely removed, and so made way for the revelation of this wicked one:... so that there was nothing more of the Roman empire remaining than the bare name, as at this day; and by this means the popes of Rome got to the height of their power and glory, which is meant by the revelation of the man of sin." [John Gill's Commentary, Baptist, 2 Thessalonians 2:7; E-Sword]

Or futher from Matthew Henry's Commentary:

"..3. His rise is mentioned, 2Th_2:6, 2Th_2:7. Concerning this we are to observe two things: - (1.) There was something that hindered or withheld, or let, until it was taken away. This is supposed to be the power of the Roman empire, which the apostle did not think fit to mention more plainly at that time; and it is notorious that, while this power continued, it prevented the advances of the bishops of Rome to that height of tyranny to which soon afterwards they arrived. (2.) This mystery of iniquity was gradually to arrive at its height; and so it was in effect that the universal corruption of doctrine and worship in the Romish church came in by degrees, and the usurpation of the bishops of Rome was gradual, not all at once; and thus the mystery of iniquity did the more easily, and almost insensibly, prevail. ..." [Matthew Henry's Commentary on the whole Bible; 2 Thessalonians 2:7; E-Sword]

or John Wesley's Commentary:

"...Already worketh - In the church. Only he that restraineth - That is, the potentate who successively has Rome in his power. The emperors..." [John Wesley's Commentary; 2 Thessalonians 2:7; E-Sword]

or the Geneva Study Bible notations [one of the primary reformations Study Bibles, with a multitude of witnesses in collaboration]:

"2 Thessalonians 2:7
(6) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: (7) only he who now (h) letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

(6) Even in the apostles time the first foundations of the apostolic seat were laid, but yet so that they deceived men. (7) He foretells that when the empire of Rome is taken away, the seat that falls away from God will succeed and hold its place, as the old writers, Tertullian, Chrysostom, and Jerome explain and interpret it.

(h) He who is now in authority and rules all, that is, the Roman Empire." [Geneva Study Bible Notes; 2 Thessalonians 2:7; E-Sword]

or from Adam Clarke's Commentary:

"...if we may rely upon the concurrent testimony of the fathers, it was the Roman empire. ..." [Adam Clarke's Commentary; ending notations, 2 Thessalonians; E-Sword]

or Albert Barnes Commentary:

"...It was some power which operated as a check on the growing corruptions then existing, and which prevented their full development, but which was to be removed at no distant period, and whose removal would give an opportunity for these corruptions to develop themselves, and for the full revelation of the man of sin. Such a supposition as that the civil power of Rome was such a restraint, operating to prevent the assumption of the ecclesiastical claims of supremacy which afterward characterized the papacy, will correspond with all that is necessarily implied in the language. ..." [Albert Barnes Commentary; 2 Thessalonians 2:7; E-Sword]

Brother, Hentenza, it is plain from the volumiunous testimony, the "let" [hindrance] was then the Roman Empire [the Legs of Iron in Daniel 2, the 4th Dreadful -Terrible Beast of Daniel 7, the first phase of the "little horn" of Daniel 8, and even that which given in Daniel 11:20], which was then restraining...

...it is impossible to be the "Holy Spirit" for numerous reasons, not the least of which the Holy Spirit will always be with God's people.

Leuko Petra · Aug 13, 2013

Hentenza said:
...BTW- Nowhere in scripture does it claim that the man of lawlessness is an office not a person. ...

Brother Hentenza,

If you will consider another verse, like unto the one under discussion?

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:17

Who is this "the man of God"? Someone specific, or anyone who properly fits the defintion of Scripture?

The "man of God" is not any one individual merely, but can be any number of multiple people that meet the criteria laid out by Scripture.

Therefore, when speaking about the "man of lawlessness [sin]", it is not merely speaking about any one individual alone, though the individual is included, but all [any man] which come under its definition, and thus can be speaking about a succession whom all fit the given definition... which persons are not merely doing, preaching, teaching "lawlessness", but are specifically pointed out by Daniel, John, Paul, etc. For further yet we read of another characteristic, even labelled as "the son of perdition".

He would "sitteth in" [English: in; Greek: heis; towards or among] "the Temple of God" [1 Corinthians 3:9,16-17, 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16] [also Ephesians 2:21; 1 Peter 2:5; Revelation 3:12], "shewing himself that he is God", even as God sitteth upon the many "waters" [peoples, multitudes, nations, tongues; Psalms 29:3,10; Daniel 12:7] ruling over the people of God [a counterfeit of God [Jeremiah 51:13; Revelation 17:1]; 2 Thessalonians 2:4], claiming to be of God, yet it is a "son of perdition" [2 Thessalonians 2:3], just as "Judas" was [John 17:12], coming in "sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves" [Mark 7:15].

There are many such points to clearly identify who Paul is speaking of, for instance, Paul speaks of something very specific here, "...time..." [2 Thessalonians 2:6].

Second Phoenix · Aug 14, 2013

Stryder06 said:
Rome restrained Christians for sometime did they not? But I do agree that the Holy Spirit will be withdrawn. He will be removed from the earth however, leaving wicked me to the deceptions of the Devil, as they march towards perdition.

Oh, do explain

Second Phoenix · Aug 14, 2013

Stryder06 said:
I wasn't speaking specifically about Rome either. Apostasy is a falling away from truth, and that is something that happens gradually over time. Given how Paul spoke of false teachers who would not spare the flock, and how Christ spoke of those who claimed to be Jews, but weren't, I believe the Apostasy was in motion, perhaps not coming to full fruition until the 5th century when Rome gained primacy.

Uh, Rome mostly lost that in the 5th Century.

Second Phoenix · Aug 14, 2013

Leuko Petra said:
That is exactly the setting forth of the Gnostic Ogdoad...

"...for the eighth day... I will endeavour to set it forth. That He might re-create that Adam by means of the week...that on the same day He rose again from the dead, on which He created light?..." [Roman Catholic Online Fathers of the Church; On The Creation Of The World (Victorinus), sections throughout] - CHURCH FATHERS: On the Creation of the World (Victorinus)

Having man created on the eighth day has nothing to do with Christ rising on the eighth day.

Stryder06 · Aug 14, 2013

Hentenza said:
Most mainstream churches have the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So they think. If we all have the same gospel, why the division?

We are not in midst of apostasy. When the great apostasy comes it will be unmistakable. Millions will lose their faith.

Apostasy isn't about losing faith, but about walking in error.

An office cannot be the man of lawlessness. That in the future a particular pope turns out to be the man of lawlessness is a different issue all together. Since the man of lawlessness has not yet been revealed then it would be conjecture to attempt to guess.

He has been revealed. The Pope carries on the traditions of those who came before him. Teaching the same lawless doctrine as those who came before him while claiming to be the Vicar of Christ. It is unmistakable, just not widely accepted.

The church grew by leaps and bounds in the first 5 centuries after Christ without the intervention of the church in Rome so I still do not see where you could claim that an apostasy of great consequence occurred. Secondly, even after the fall of the Roman empire and the coronation of Charlemagne in the early 9th century, Christianity flourished both in the west and the east. Again, I still do not see where you could claim that a great apostasy occurred. Even at the height of the Roman church in Europe (middle to late middle ages) no great apostasy occurred either. In order for the great apostasy that the bible speaks of to have occurred a large number of people (not just institutions) have to lose their faith and until today there is not a single or series of historical events that even hint at a great apostasy.

Where does the bible say that the great apostasy will result in the loss of faith of millions?

Sorry brother but you have nothing to back up a historical apostasy.

When properly understood, apostasy can be seen quite clearly throughout history.

Hentenza · Aug 14, 2013

Leuko Petra said:
Brother hentenza, as was earlier shown, from Historcal commentators, it has already come -

http://www.christianforums.com/t7766317-2/#post63948599

Now please consider Baptist Commentator John Gill:

"2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work,.... Or "the mystery of that wicked one", as the Syriac; meaning either antichrist himself, and the spirit of antichrist, which were already in the world, 1Jo_2:18, "mystery" being one of the names of antichrist, Rev_17:5 and anciently this word was engraven on the mitres of the popes of Rome: or the evil doctrines and practices of antichrist may be intended; for as the doctrine of the Gospel is called a mystery, and the mystery of godliness; so the doctrines and practices of antichrist may be called the mystery of iniquity, especially as they were now secretly spread, imbibed, and practised: the foundations of it were now laying in the church by false teachers; for errors and heresies of every sort, respecting the person and offices of Christ, and in opposition to them, were now broached; idolatry, and holding communion with idolaters, now obtained; worshipping of angels was used by some; and superstition and will worship, worship after the commandments of men, were practised; days, and months, and years, distinguished by Jews and Pagans, and difference of meats, were observed; celibacy and virginity began to be admired and commended; dominion and magistracy were despised, and church authority contemned, and many, as Diotrephes, loved to have the pre-eminence; and the doctrine of justification by the works of the law was industriously spread, and zealously preached and received; all which laid the foundation, and are the life and soul of popery:

only he who now letteth, will let, until he be taken out of the way; that is, the Roman empire and Roman emperors, and which were by degrees entirely removed, and so made way for the revelation of this wicked one:... so that there was nothing more of the Roman empire remaining than the bare name, as at this day; and by this means the popes of Rome got to the height of their power and glory, which is meant by the revelation of the man of sin." [John Gill's Commentary, Baptist, 2 Thessalonians 2:7; E-Sword]

Or futher from Matthew Henry's Commentary:

"..3. His rise is mentioned, 2Th_2:6, 2Th_2:7. Concerning this we are to observe two things: - (1.) There was something that hindered or withheld, or let, until it was taken away. This is supposed to be the power of the Roman empire, which the apostle did not think fit to mention more plainly at that time; and it is notorious that, while this power continued, it prevented the advances of the bishops of Rome to that height of tyranny to which soon afterwards they arrived. (2.) This mystery of iniquity was gradually to arrive at its height; and so it was in effect that the universal corruption of doctrine and worship in the Romish church came in by degrees, and the usurpation of the bishops of Rome was gradual, not all at once; and thus the mystery of iniquity did the more easily, and almost insensibly, prevail. ..." [Matthew Henry's Commentary on the whole Bible; 2 Thessalonians 2:7; E-Sword]

or John Wesley's Commentary:

"...Already worketh - In the church. Only he that restraineth - That is, the potentate who successively has Rome in his power. The emperors..." [John Wesley's Commentary; 2 Thessalonians 2:7; E-Sword]

or the Geneva Study Bible notations [one of the primary reformations Study Bibles, with a multitude of witnesses in collaboration]:

"2 Thessalonians 2:7
(6) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: (7) only he who now (h) letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

(6) Even in the apostles time the first foundations of the apostolic seat were laid, but yet so that they deceived men. (7) He foretells that when the empire of Rome is taken away, the seat that falls away from God will succeed and hold its place, as the old writers, Tertullian, Chrysostom, and Jerome explain and interpret it.

(h) He who is now in authority and rules all, that is, the Roman Empire." [Geneva Study Bible Notes; 2 Thessalonians 2:7; E-Sword]

or from Adam Clarke's Commentary:

"...if we may rely upon the concurrent testimony of the fathers, it was the Roman empire. ..." [Adam Clarke's Commentary; ending notations, 2 Thessalonians; E-Sword]

or Albert Barnes Commentary:

"...It was some power which operated as a check on the growing corruptions then existing, and which prevented their full development, but which was to be removed at no distant period, and whose removal would give an opportunity for these corruptions to develop themselves, and for the full revelation of the man of sin. Such a supposition as that the civil power of Rome was such a restraint, operating to prevent the assumption of the ecclesiastical claims of supremacy which afterward characterized the papacy, will correspond with all that is necessarily implied in the language. ..." [Albert Barnes Commentary; 2 Thessalonians 2:7; E-Sword]

Brother, Hentenza, it is plain from the volumiunous testimony, the "let" [hindrance] was then the Roman Empire [the Legs of Iron in Daniel 2, the 4th Dreadful -Terrible Beast of Daniel 7, the first phase of the "little horn" of Daniel 8, and even that which given in Daniel 11:20], which was then restraining...

...it is impossible to be the "Holy Spirit" for numerous reasons, not the least of which the Holy Spirit will always be with God's people.

You know. it amazes me that you have not seen the correlation between your quote mines yet. There are two types of beliefs within these quotes. All quotes coming after the reformation refer directly to the papacy and the Roman church while all quotes coming from before the reformation refer to the secular Roman empire which fell in the west in 476 ad. Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Tertullian, Oigen, Chrysostom, Augustine, and others refer to the secular Roman empire not to the church of Rome. Chrysostom even refers to Nero. Gill, Henry, Wesley, and Barnes wrote during the post-reformation years and equated the secular Roman empire to the church of Rome. This only reveal their bias toward the church of Rome which is understandable given the hatred between the protestants and catholics during those years.

You are using the bias of a generation to attempt to prove an unprovable point. You are encapsulating your "proof" to a certain period and ignoring what you don't agree with. Your research is faulty and incomplete.

Revelation: The Bride, The Beast & Babylon

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Check the signature

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Check the signature

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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I will fear no evil for You are with me

Check the signature

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Following The Lamb

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I will fear no evil for You are with me

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