The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment in Hell.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

And there fell a great star from heaven - A star is a natural emblem of a prince, of a ruler, of one distinguished by rank or by talent.
..the reference here, as in Rev 19:21, seems to me not to be to angels, but to some mighty leader of armies, who was to collect his hosts, and to go through the world in the work of destruction. [BARNES]

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev 2:26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28And I will give him the morning star.

Num 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.

as representatives of the pagan nations Num_24:8 who were hostile to the theocracy. As Jacob therefore figures as a constant type of the kingdom of Messiah in the prophets, so do Edom and Joab of the enemies of that kingdom; and in the threatened ruin of Edom and Moab is indicated the eventual destruction of all that resist the kingdom of God in its power...
and that too in "the latter days" Num_24:14, the ordinary prophetic designation for the time of the Messiah [BARNES]

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

he-man said:

It relates to Assyria's army that lies around its grave. All of its soldiers are dead. They have been killed in battle. They once terrified people in the land of the living.

Isaiah 14:8 (ESV) The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no woodcutter comes up against us.’

Ezekiel 31:16 (ESV) I made the nations quake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to Sheol with those who go down to the pit. And all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the world below.

Ezekiel 31:15 (ESV) “Thus says the Lord GOD: On the day the cedar went down to Sheol I caused mourning; I closed the deep over it, and restrained its rivers, and many waters were stopped. I clothed Lebanon in gloom for it, and all the trees of the field fainted because of it.

to... nether... earth... pit—(Eze 32:18; Ps 82:7). covered the deep—as mourners cover their heads in token of mourning, "I made the deep that watered the cedar" to wrap itself in mourning for him. The waters of the deep are the tributary peoples of Assyria (Rev. 17:15).A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments. Says who? The next verse continues in the same language
Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
NOTE: "stars" express earthly potentates.
[Maurer, Septuagint, Syriac].

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to Sheol, to the sides of the pit.
But you are brought down to Sheol
Eze 32:23 — Their graves are in the deepest parts of the pit. Assyria's army lies around its grave. All of its soldiers are dead. They have been killed in battle. They once terrified people in the land of the living.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Gesenius, however, renders the Hebrew here as "howl." Ezekiel 21:12 (KJV) Cry and howl, son of man: for it shall be upon my people, it shall be upon all the princes of Israel: terrors by reason of the sword shall be upon my people: smite therefore upon thy thigh.
By all means Ezekiel 32:27 (ESV) And they do not lie with the mighty, the fallen from among the uncircumcised, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war, whose swords were laid under their heads, and whose iniquities are upon their bones; for the terror of the mighty men was in the land of the living.
28 But as for you,.. with those who are slain by the sword.

they shall not lie with the mighty—that is, (Isa 14:18, 19), to which Ezekiel refers, and which represents them as not lying as mighty kings lie in a grave, but cast out of one, as a carcass trodden under foot. Where in the world did you get out of the midst of hell ? and in case you do not know it, dead people cannot speak.

It is the mighty GOD that shall speak to him Ezekiel 32:29-32 (ESV)“Edom is there, her kings and all her princes, who for all their might are laid with those who are killed by the sword; they lie with the uncircumcised, with those who go down to the pit.

30 “The princes of the north are there, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who have gone down in shame with the slain, for all the terror that they caused by their might; they lie uncircumcised with those who are slain by the sword, and bear their shame with those who go down to the pit.

31 “When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD.

32 For I spread terror in the land of the living; and he shall be laid to rest among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword, Pharaoh and all his multitude, declares the Lord GOD.”


will be consoled for
Eze 31:16 — I made the nations tremble in fear at the sound of the tree's crash. I brought the tree down to the grave to join those who had gone down to the pit. Then all the trees in Eden, the choicest and best trees of Lebanon, and all the trees that were well-watered were consoled below the earth. The knowledge of wisdom goes a long way, if you have any.

Psalm 9:17-18 (KJV) The wicked shall be turned into Sheol, and all the nations that forget God.

18 For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.

Pr 23:18 — There is indeed a future, and your hope will never be cut off.

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he-man said:

It relates to Assyria's army that lies around its grave. All of its soldiers are dead. They have been killed in battle. They once terrified people in the land of the living.

Isaiah 14:8 (ESV) The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no woodcutter comes up against us.’

Ezekiel 31:16 (ESV) I made the nations quake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to Sheol with those who go down to the pit. And all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the world below.

Ezekiel 31:15 (ESV) “Thus says the Lord GOD: On the day the cedar went down to Sheol I caused mourning; I closed the deep over it, and restrained its rivers, and many waters were stopped. I clothed Lebanon in gloom for it, and all the trees of the field fainted because of it.

to... nether... earth... pit—(Eze 32:18; Ps 82:7). covered the deep—as mourners cover their heads in token of mourning, "I made the deep that watered the cedar" to wrap itself in mourning for him. The waters of the deep are the tributary peoples of Assyria (Rev. 17:15).A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments. Says who? The next verse continues in the same language
Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
NOTE: "stars" express earthly potentates.
[Maurer, Septuagint, Syriac].

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As I said before “How does this address what I said? I don't see that this refutes anything I posted. Isa 37:24 is addressed to Sennacherib king of Assyria, cf. 37:21, Isaiah 14 referred to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.”

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to Sheol, to the sides of the pit.
But you are brought down to Sheol
Eze 32:23 — Their graves are in the deepest parts of the pit. Assyria's army lies around its grave. All of its soldiers are dead. They have been killed in battle. They once terrified people in the land of the living.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

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You are mixing vss, from Isaiah 14 with vss, from Ezek 32, two different times, two different kings and two different countries. Neither of which proves anything about the other. Also none of this contradicts anything that I said.

Gesenius, however, renders the Hebrew here as "howl." Ezekiel 21:12 (KJV) Cry and howl, son of man: for it shall be upon my people, it shall be upon all the princes of Israel: terrors by reason of the sword shall be upon my people: smite therefore upon thy thigh.

By all means Ezekiel 32:27 (ESV) And they do not lie with the mighty, the fallen from among the uncircumcised, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war, whose swords were laid under their heads, and whose iniquities are upon their bones; for the terror of the mighty men was in the land of the living.
28 But as for you,.. with those who are slain by the sword.

they shall not lie with the mighty—that is, (Isa 14:18, 19), to which Ezekiel refers, and which represents them as not lying as mighty kings lie in a grave, but cast out of one, as a carcass trodden under foot. Where in the world did you get out of the midst of hell ? and in case you do not know it, dead people cannot speak.

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Deliberate misrepresentation and out-of-context proof text. Ezekiel 32 does not refer to Isa 14:18, 19. As I said before Isa 14 is about the death and burial of Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon. Ezek 32 is God using Babylon to destroy Egypt, see vs. 2, 11-20. Where did I get the dead speaking out of the midst of Hell? Read your Bible! Se Ezek 32:21. This is where I got “out of the midst of hell.”

Your out-of-context proof text Ezek 32:27 refers only to Meshech, and Tubal, vs. 26.


The strong among the mighty shall speak to Pharaoh, king of Egypt out of sheol.

It is the mighty GOD that shall speak to him Ezekiel 32:29-32 (ESV)“Edom is there, her kings and all her princes, who for all their might are laid with those who are killed by the sword; they lie with the uncircumcised, with those who go down to the pit.
30 “The princes of the north are there, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who have gone down in shame with the slain, for all the terror that they caused by their might; they lie uncircumcised with those who are slain by the sword, and bear their shame with those who go down to the pit.
31 “When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD.
32 For I spread terror in the land of the living; and he shall be laid to rest among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword, Pharaoh and all his multitude, declares the Lord GOD.”

will be consoled for
Eze 31:16 — I made the nations tremble in fear at the sound of the tree's crash. I brought the tree down to the grave to join those who had gone down to the pit. Then all the trees in Eden, the choicest and best trees of Lebanon, and all the trees that were well-watered were consoled below the earth.

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Yes! And none of this changes Ezek 32:21, 31. “The strong among the mighty will speak to Pharaoh out of the midst of sheol” and Pharaoh who is slain by the sword will see his dead army and be comforted.

The knowledge of wisdom goes a long way, if you have any.

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One’s arguments are totally bankrupt when they have to resort to insults.

Psalm 9:17-18 (KJV) The wicked shall be turned into Sheol, and all the nations that forget God.
18 For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.

Pr 23:18 — There is indeed a future, and your hope will never be cut off.

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What is your point?

[SIZE="+1"]הגדול[/SIZE]/hagadol

Der Alter said:

What is your point?

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Der Alter said:

What is your point?

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Point? You mean Hebrew point?
32:21 ידברו-לו אלי גבורים מתוך שאול את-עזריו ירדו שכבו הערלים חללי-חרב .

Ezekiel 32:21 The chief gods [protagonist] of you shall speak to him, with their aids; from the inside of Sheol they have gone down, they lie down, the Gentile, dead by the sword.

Assyria is there, and all her company Eze 32:24 — “Elam is there with all its soldiers, and the graves of its soldiers are all around it. All of its soldiers are dead. They have been killed in battle. They went down below the earth as godless people. They once terrified people in the land of the living. Now they suffer disgrace with those who have gone down to the pit.

Only God has the keys of hell and of death. Then what happens next?
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

And there fell a great star from heaven - A star is a natural emblem of a prince, of a ruler, of one distinguished by rank or by talent.
..the reference here, as in Rev 19:21, seems to me not to be to angels, but to some mighty leader of armies, who was to collect his hosts, and to go through the world in the work of destruction. [BARNES]

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev 2:26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28And I will give him the morning star.

Num 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.

as representatives of the pagan nations Num_24:8 who were hostile to the theocracy. As Jacob therefore figures as a constant type of the kingdom of Messiah in the prophets, so do Edom and Joab of the enemies of that kingdom; and in the threatened ruin of Edom and Moab is indicated the eventual destruction of all that resist the kingdom of God in its power...
and that too in "the latter days" Num_24:14, the ordinary prophetic designation for the time of the Messiah [BARNES]

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Psalm 9:17-18 (KJV) The wicked shall be turned into Sheol, and all the nations that forget God.

18 For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.

Pr 23:18 — There is indeed a future, and your hope will never be cut off.

he-man said:

Point? You mean Hebrew point?
32:21 ידברו-לו אלי גבורים מתוך שאול את-עזריו ירדו שכבו הערלים חללי-חרב .

Ezekiel 32:21 The chief gods [protagonist] of you shall speak to him, with their aids; from the inside of Sheol they have gone down, they lie down, the Gentile, dead by the sword. . . .

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This deliberate corruption of this verse is self-contradictory. "gentiles," are not "chief gods," or vice versa.

You omitted part of verse 21. You omitted these words [SIZE="+1"]פרעה וכל־חילו[/SIZE], "Pharaoh and all his army.


Here is Eze 32:21 from the 1917 Jewish Publication society translation.


No "chief gods."

[SIZE="+1"]הגדול[/SIZE]/hagadol

Evergreen48 said:

How do you know that Kimhi's statement does not reference any other evidence? Have you read this for yourself? or, are you just taking Strack's and Billerbeck's word for it? As for myself I would have to know a lot more about the context of the 'argument' between Strack/ Billlerbeck and Kimchi than what was posted from the theological journal before I could come to any conclusion of its worthiness towards proof or disproof on the subject.

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Der Alter said:

So typical. You accept an alleged quote from Kimhi, which you have never read in context, without question but when two different sources, Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch and Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189, state that Kimhi was wrong, you demand to read the articles in context before you will believe them. How biased. Strack and Billerbeck can be read or downloaded at Internet Archives but it may not help you much unless you are fluent in German.
Instead of dismissing evidence out of hand, here is how you prove or disprove the sources. Find archaeological evidence that the valley of Hinnom was used as a garbage dump and a place where bodies were thrown. Until then you have no argument.

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I don't necessarily accept Kimhi's quote, and I am not dismissing "evidence out of hand". But I do not see any evidence that either Strack or Billerbeck were ever in Jerusalem to see for their self if there was or was not "archaeological evidence" to that effect, and according to your line of reasoning, unless they saw for their self the topographies (the detailed description, especially by means of surveying, of particular localities) they would have no argument.

I do not know why Kimchi would have made the story up about Gehenna being the "city dump", and I don't know why that over 600 years later Strack and Billerbeck would have tried to refute his claim on the matter. And that is what I meant when I said "I would have to know a lot more about the context of the 'argument' between Strack/ Billlerbeck and Kimchi than what was posted in the theological journal".

"In the beginning of his career the Prussian government sent Strack to St. Petersburg to examine the Bible manuscripts there; on this occasion he examined also the antiquities of the Firkovich collection, which he declared to be forgeries. This claim was found to be untrue: the Firkovich collection is closely related to Cairo Geniza material found by Solomon Schechter." . . . an extract from the article in Wikipedia concerning Hermann Strack . . . .

Evergreen48 said:

]There definitely was fire in Gehenna (the valley of the sons of Hinnom) before the days of Jesus, but they had long ago been extinguished before his time. So, if the rubbish dump 'theory' did not come into existence until the 1200's, why would Jesus have referred to it as being a place of fire? There would have been nothing there but barren wasteland ___ no fires, no worms, no nothing.

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Der alter said:

Good question because at the time of Jesus many Jews believed that the wicked were eternally punished and they called that place Gehenna. I have posted this evidence before, guess you ignored it
Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

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That does not answer my question. If there was no fire in Gehenna when Jesus was teaching and preaching, why would he have referred to it as a place of fire to those to whom he was speaking at that time?

Mark 9:43 ". . . . it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. "

Der Alter said:

That is correct you did not mention sheol. However sheol is translated "Hades" in the Septuagint, the 250 BC translation of the Tanakh into Greek.

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Evergreen48 said:

Yes, I am aware of that, but it still does not prove that Gehenna and Hades were the same place. Now, if you could show me where Gehenna (the valley of the sons of Hinnom) is translated from the Hebrew into Greek as Hades you might actually have a effective argument.

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Der alter said:

I love this bias and inconsistency. I have an effective argument, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud. You accept a second hand reference by a 13th century Rabbi, which you have never read, but when primary evidence is provided you blow it off. My point is that the ancient Jews believed in a place of eternal torment and they called it both Gehenna and sheol. Object all you want, incontrovertible evidence has already been provided.

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Because you did not find this in your Jewish Encyclopedia or the Talmud (if you have read all of it), does not mean that there is not other literary evidence than those two things.
You have NOT shown evidence that Gehenna and Hades were the same place.

Where did you find the basis for your comment that ancient Jews believed in a place of eternal torment and they called it both Gehenna and sheol?

This is the translational fallacy of Illegitimate Totality transfer.

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I believe "translational fallacy of Illegitimate Totality transfer" deals with translating words, i.e. the explicit or implicit transfer of all the meanings of a given word into any given passage.

First you ignore the fact that the ancient Jews believed Isa 14:9 to be factual.

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I do not doubt that SOME of the "ancient Jews believed Is.14:9 to be factual. That does not make it true! The ancient Jew had many beliefs and practices that were not the results of godly wisdom. In an earlier post I pointed out at least two of these fallacious beliefs. I will repost them for your edification.

"It is a tradition of Ben Kaphra's: The very height of mourning is not till the third day. For three days the spirit wanders about the sepulchre, expecting if it may return into the body. But when it sees that the form or aspect of the face is changed, then it hovers no more, but leaves the body to itself."

"Be it so, O Jew (if you will, or it can be), that the little bone luz, in the backbone, is the seed and principle of your resurrection: as to us, our blessed Jesus, who hath raised himself from the dead, is the spring and principle of ours.
"Hadrian (whose bones may they be ground, and his name blotted out!) asked R. Joshua Ben Hananiah, 'How doth a man revive again in the world to come?' He answered and said, 'From luz in the backbone.' Saith he to him, 'Demonstrate this to me.' Then he took luz, a little bone out of the backbone, and put it in water, and it was not steeped: he put it into the fire, and it was not burnt: he brought it to the mill, and that could not grind it: he laid it on the anvil, and knocked it with a hammer, but the anvil was cleft, and the hammer broken," &c. Why do ye not maul the Sadducees with this argument?"

Because one instance of figurative language occurs in a passage is not license to dismiss the entire passage as figurative. There is an old maxim, “If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense.”

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Yes, yes, you have said this before. The cases we are discussing here hardly falls under the heading of "plain sense". It is not plain sense that when 'bad' people die they go to a place where they can talk and interact with one another, especially in light of the fact that it is specifically taught in the scriptures that the dead know nothing at all.

Job 3:13. "For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest, 14. With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves; 15. Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver: 16. Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light. 17. There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. 18. There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. 19. The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master."

(Isa. 53:9 "And he [Jesus] made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.")

Psa. 115: 17. "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."

Eccl. 9:5. "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Isa 14:4-20 describes factual events, King Nebuchadnezzar enslaved and brutalized Israel, vs. 3, 6, God caused his death, he was buried, and worms did cover him.

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Yes.

We know that trees do not speak, thus that is figurative.

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Yes.

But we have no direct knowledge of what happens after death so we cannot say that vss. 9-10 are figurative.
Unless, you have some more esoteric knowledge to the contrary.

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There is direct knowledge via the scripture pointed to previously. (Job 3:13-19, Isa. 53:9, Psa.115:17, Eccl.9:5) That knowledge is not esoteric knowledge because it is there for anyone who cares to read and believe them. Unless you do not consider the Holy Scriptures as being direct knowledge from God?

Also you cannot so easily dismiss Ezekiel 32:21, 31 which you ignored. That passage has no obviously figurative language.

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I did not ignore Ezek. 32:21, 31. Evidently I did not see where you cited those passages.

Ezek. 32:17. "It came to pass also in the twelfth year, in the fifteenth day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 18. Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit."

If you believe that God ever gave any prophet or any other "man of God" the authority to literally cast someone down to hell (if there were one), then I could see why you could take the following verses literally. And I believe that is all I would need to say about Ezek. 32:21, 31.

Der Alter said:

There are also passages in the OT in which Sheol appears to be more than simply the grave.
Isa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell [שׁאול], and all the nations that forget God.
Are only the wicked and nations who forget God going to die and be buried in the grave?

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Evergreen48 said:

I believe the scripture you are referring to is found in Psalms 9:17.
"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."
But anyway, I don't have knowledge as to whether or not its only the wicked and nations that forget God that are turned into hell. But everyone that dies will eventually, in one way or another, return to the earth from which they came. Perhaps if you rephrased your question I might be able to give a little better answer.

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Der Alter said:

]Psa 9:17 does not say, “everyone that dies will eventually, in one way or another” go to sheol. It says “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.” It does not say anything about the righteous.

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No one said that it did say that. What is your point?

Der Alter said:

Nice dodge. How about the multitude of children who are disobedient in ways that do not directly result in death? Will punishing them with a rod save them from sheol?

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Probably not, so the writer must have had the child or children in mind who were given to doing reckless things that would be a danger to their well being. Some children are prone to those kinds of actions.

If you believe that fir trees and cedars can actually talk, then I suppose you would have no problem in taking these passages literally. As for myself, I believe they are written in a language that is peculiar to prophetical writings only, and are of the metaphorical nature. And in anticipation of what I believe your reply to this will be, I will ask: Do you believe that there are any metaphors or any metonymy used in the Old Testament scriptures at all? and if you do, what are some of the scriptures that you believe could be considered as such?

I have already answered this above. I have common sense, if the plain sense of scripture makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense. Unlike some I don’t arbitrarily dismiss a verse or passage as figurative just because the plain sense disproves something I believe.

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It is not plain sense to take a prophetic scripture literally if other scriptures have already ruled out its literalization.

Again:
Do you believe that there are any metaphors or any metonymy used in the Old Testament scriptures at all? and if you do, what are some of the scriptures that you believe could be considered as such?

Der Alter said:

This deliberate corruption of this verse is self-contradictory. "gentiles," are not "chief gods," or vice versa. No "chief gods." [SIZE=+1]הגדול[/SIZE]/hagadol

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HEBREW 101: גבורים protagonist; nm. god, deity אלי
protagonist noun CHIEF Concise Oxford American Thesaurus - 1st Edition

"gentille", meaning of or belonging to a clan or tribe) is used by English translators for the Hebrew, גוי (goy) and נכרי (nokhri) in the Hebrew Bible One of a non-Jewish nation; one neither a Jew nor a Christian; a worshiper of false gods; a heathen.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Nothing left out just your mis-translation
Ezekiel 32:21 The chief gods [protagonist] of you shall speak to him, with their aids; from the inside of Sheol they have gone down, they lie down, the Gentile, dead by the sword. . .
גבורים protagonist CHIEF deity אל "gentille", גוי (goy)[ הערלים ערל ]
32:21 ידברו-לו אלי גבורים מתוך שאול את-עזריו ירדו שכבו הערלים חללי-חרב

ידברו speak לו to him אל diety גבור protagonist מתוך from the inside שאול of Sheol את they לרדת to go down עזרים with their aids ירדו to descend לשכב to lie down הערלים the Gentile חללי dead חרב by the sword

he-man said:

HEBREW 101: גבורים protagonist; nm. god, deity אלי
protagonist noun CHIEF Concise Oxford American Thesaurus - 1st Edition

"gentille", meaning of or belonging to a clan or tribe) is used by English translators for the Hebrew, גוי (goy) and נכרי (nokhri) in the Hebrew Bible One of a non-Jewish nation; one neither a Jew nor a Christian; a worshiper of false gods; a heathen.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Nothing left out just your mis-translation
Ezekiel 32:21 The chief gods [protagonist] of you shall speak to him, with their aids; from the inside of Sheol they have gone down, they lie down, the Gentile, dead by the sword. . .
גבורים protagonist CHIEF deity אל "gentille", גוי (goy)[ הערלים ערל ]
32:21 ידברו-לו אלי גבורים מתוך שאול את-עזריו ירדו שכבו הערלים חללי-חרב

ידברו speak לו to him אל diety גבור protagonist מתוך from the inside שאול of Sheol את they לרדת to go down עזרים with their aids ירדו to descend לשכב to lie down הערלים the Gentile חללי dead חרב by the sword

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I have responded to an almost identical post at this Thread link. Where I trumped all your anonymous sources.

I think one thread at a time is enough for this discussion.

Evergreen48 said:

Because you did not find this in your Jewish Encyclopedia or the Talmud (if you have read all of it), does not mean that there is not other literary evidence than those two things.
You have NOT shown evidence that Gehenna and Hades were the same place.

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Right I have not produced any evidence if you ignore both the Talmud and Jewish Encyclopedia. What credible, verifiable, historical evidence? A vague reference to some other "literary evidence" is not compelling.

Where did you find the basis for your comment that ancient Jews believed in a place of eternal torment and they called it both Gehenna and sheol?

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In the Jewish Encyclopedia Gehenna article I posted and the Talmud citation. I have posted, both more than once, evidently you ignore anything which proves you wrong. See my previous posts.

Jewish Encyclopedia - Jewish belief in Hell

[post=63318413]JE-Jews and Hell[/post]

Talmud Jewish belief in hell

[post=63598623]Talmud-Jews and Hell[/post]

I believe "translational fallacy of Illegitimate Totality transfer" deals with translating words, i.e. the explicit or implicit transfer of all the meanings of a given word into any given passage.

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That is correct. Do you think I used the term incorrectly?

I do not doubt that SOME of the "ancient Jews believed Is.14:9 to be factual. That does not make it true! The ancient Jew had many beliefs and practices that were not the results of godly wisdom. In an earlier post I pointed out at least two of these fallacious beliefs. I will repost them for your edification.

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It will take more than a vague reference to supposed unbiblical beliefs to disprove the JE and Talmud.

"It is a tradition of Ben Kaphra's: The very height of mourning is not till the third day. For three days the spirit wanders about the sepulchre, expecting if it may return into the body. But when it sees that the form or aspect of the face is changed, then it hovers no more, but leaves the body to itself."

"Be it so, O Jew (if you will, or it can be), that the little bone luz, in the backbone, is the seed and principle of your resurrection: as to us, our blessed Jesus, who hath raised himself from the dead, is the spring and principle of ours.
"Hadrian (whose bones may they be ground, and his name blotted out!) asked R. Joshua Ben Hananiah, 'How doth a man revive again in the world to come?' He answered and said, 'From luz in the backbone.' Saith he to him, 'Demonstrate this to me.' Then he took luz, a little bone out of the backbone, and put it in water, and it was not steeped: he put it into the fire, and it was not burnt: he brought it to the mill, and that could not grind it: he laid it on the anvil, and knocked it with a hammer, but the anvil was cleft, and the hammer broken," &c. Why do ye not maul the Sadducees with this argument?"

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These prove nothing about anything I have quoted. You did not identify your source.

Yes, yes, you have said this before. The cases we are discussing here hardly falls under the heading of "plain sense". It is not plain sense that when 'bad' people die they go to a place where they can talk and interact with one another, especially in light of the fact that it is specifically taught in the scriptures that the dead know nothing at all.

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Do you have any first hand witness that Isaiah 14:9 and Ezek 32:21, 31 are not literal other than your own beliefs? Has anybody ever been there and back to tell us exactly what happens on the other side of the grave?

Job 3:13. "For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest, 14. With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves; 15. Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver: 16. Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light. 17. There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest. 18. There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. 19. The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master."

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This is Job speaking from his own knowledge what he can perceive with his own senses sight, sound, touch, etc.. Much as when someone speaks of the sun rising and setting. The sun does not literally rise and set but even to modern man it appears to.

(Isa. 53:9 "And he [Jesus] made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.")

Psa. 115: 17. "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."

Eccl. 9:5. "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

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I have responded to these out-of-context proofs texts so many times I'm tired of it. Why can't conditionalists get some new material, and do their own research and pay attention to context? Instead of copy/pasting this same ol' stuff from some anonymous website.

I don't see the relevance of Isa 53:9

Psa 115:17 So what? The dead in Isa 7:14 and Ezek 32:21,31 are speaking but they are not praising the Lord.

Last but not least, Eccl 9:5. The phrase "under the sun" occurs 27 times in the book of Eccl, 5 times in chapter 9. Vss. 9:3, 6, 9, 11, and 13. Now let us look at your prooftext, in-context?


Verse 5 is not about man's ultimate fate but what happens here, under the sun. If it were about man's ultimate fate then "neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten . . " would apply to the righteous as well. After the righteous die they would not have any more reward? Is that true? This same writer did not know where man's spirit goes after death, Eccl 3:21.

There is direct knowledge via the scripture pointed to previously. (Job 3:13-19, Isa. 53:9, Psa.115:17, Eccl.9:5) That knowledge is not esoteric knowledge because it is there for anyone who cares to read and believe them. Unless you do not consider the Holy Scriptures as being direct knowledge from God?

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Your out-of-context proof texts are not eye witnesses, they are capable of either interpretation, as I have shown. What I mean is eye witness accounts, someone who has died and returned who can tell us what happens on the other side of the grave.

Ezek. 32:17. "It came to pass also in the twelfth year, in the fifteenth day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 18. Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit."

If you believe that God ever gave any prophet or any other "man of God" the authority to literally cast someone down to hell (if there were one), then I could see why you could take the following verses literally. And I believe that is all I would need to say about Ezek. 32:21, 31.

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Here you are making another translational fallacy. In Ezek 32:17 bor/pit refers to the grave. When soldiers kill the enemy, they are usually buried in the bor, pit. They go down into the grave. What is your problem with that? And once again the fact that one can find figurative language in one or more verses is not license to make everything figurative. Especially when people want to arbitrarily interpret something as figurative merely because it contradicts what they already believe.

Probably not, so the writer must have had the child or children in mind who were given to doing reckless things that would be a danger to their well being. Some children are prone to those kinds of actions.

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A few problems with this. One, you assume that only Jews who might have children doing something fatally dangerous would read that psalm. What about all those Jews with children doing something wrong that was not inherently dangerous? Second, you are speculating, "probably not" and "must have had" Without preconceptions and speculation we have a Psalm that says,

If you believe that fir trees and cedars can actually talk, then I suppose you would have no problem in taking these passages literally. As for myself, I believe they are written in a language that is peculiar to prophetical writings only, and are of the metaphorical nature. And in anticipation of what I believe your reply to this will be, I will ask: Do you believe that there are any metaphors or any metonymy used in the Old Testament scriptures at all? and if you do, what are some of the scriptures that you believe could be considered as such?

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There you go again translational fallacy. You assume that if one thing in a passage is figurative then everything else is also. Yes I do know that the Hebrew of the OT has much figurative language but as I have said repeatedly the presence of one figure of speech is not license to interpret everything as figurative, especially as you do, to make a passage support your preconceptions.

It is not plain sense to take a prophetic scripture literally if other scriptures have already ruled out its literalization

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.

Other scripture has not ruled out the literal understanding of Isa 14:9, and Ezek 32:21, 31, as I have shown above with your prooftexts, Job 3:13-19, Psa.115:17, Eccl.9:5.

Again:
Do you believe that there are any metaphors or any metonymy used in the Old Testament scriptures at all? and if you do, what are some of the scriptures that you believe could be considered as such?

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See my reply above. Bullinger has a list of about 20 different categories.

Bullinger: Figures of Speech Used in the Bible

Evergreen48 said:

I don't necessarily accept Kimhi's quote, and I am not dismissing "evidence out of hand". But I do not see any evidence that either Strack or Billerbeck were ever in Jerusalem to see for their self if there was or was not "archaeological evidence" to that effect, and according to your line of reasoning, unless they saw for their self the topographies (the detailed description, especially by means of surveying, of particular localities) they would have no argument.

I do not know why Kimchi would have made the story up about Gehenna being the "city dump", and I don't know why that over 600 years later Strack and Billerbeck would have tried to refute his claim on the matter. And that is what I meant when I said "I would have to know a lot more about the context of the 'argument' between Strack/ Billlerbeck and Kimchi than what was posted in the theological journal".

"In the beginning of his career the Prussian government sent Strack to St. Petersburg to examine the Bible manuscripts there; on this occasion he examined also the antiquities of the Firkovich collection, which he declared to be forgeries. This claim was found to be untrue: the Firkovich collection is closely related to Cairo Geniza material found by Solomon Schechter." . . . an extract from the article in Wikipedia concerning Hermann Strack . . . .

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This is irrelevant. I gave you a link to Strack and Billerbeck's work please feel free to read the material and let it speak for itself. Strack and Billerbeck's and Lloyd R. Bailey's work was sufficiently credible to be cited in the Bibliotheca Sacra/July–September 1992. Also it would not hurt for you to find archaeological evidence which proves the opposite of Strack, Billbeck and Bailey. Wirh all the people making that argument surely someone has been able to prove it?

DA said:

Good question because at the time of Jesus many Jews believed that the wicked were eternally punished and they called that place Gehenna. I have posted this evidence before, guess you ignored it

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).​

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That does not answer my question. If there was no fire in Gehenna when Jesus was teaching and preaching, why would he have referred to it as a place of fire to those to whom he was speaking at that time?

Mark 9:43 ". . . . it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. "

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First there is no archaeological or literary evidence that there ever was continually burning fires in the valley of Gehinnom. Do you grasp that? No evidence!

My post most certainly does answer your question. Jesus was not talking about the valley of Hinnom. There were no continually burning fires there. The Jews believed in a place of unending fiery torment for the wicked and they called it both Gehenna and Sheol. Sheol is translated hades in the 250 BC Greek translation of the OT. That is the Gehenna Jesus was referring to.

Some have been reading a bit too much Rob Bell.

GomesDusty said:

Some have been reading a bit too much Rob Bell.

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Not me! The only thing I know about him is he is supposed to be some kind of false teacher. I have never heard him speak and have never read anything he wrote.

Der Alter said:

I have responded to an almost identical post at this Thread link.

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Think again Have you no honour?

Pretty hard for you to say the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies are a devil unless the word simply means adversary!

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his hosts.
στράτευμα armament, army, host; archaic an army Concise Oxford English Dictionary

Psa 149:6Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;

7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, punishments upon the people;

8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

he-man said:

Think again Have you no honour?

Pretty hard for you to say the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies are a devil unless the word simply means adversary!

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his hosts.
στράτευμα armament, army, host; archaic an army Concise Oxford English Dictionary

Psa 149:6Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;

7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, punishments upon the people;

8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;

9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

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What are you talking about? When have I ever said anything about "the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies are a devil?" I have not addressed any of these verses in this thread or the other thread. Would you like to go back and address what I did address in the post that you quoted one sentence from above?

Der Alter said:

What are you talking about? When have I ever said anything about "the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies are a devil?" I have not addressed any of these verses in this thread or the other thread. Would you like to go back and address what I did address in the post that you quoted one sentence from above?

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In hell the ancient form of death, which was one of the enemies destroyed by Christ, shall not continue, but a death of a far different kind reigns there, "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord": an abiding testimony of the victory of Christ.A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.

How about we read the rest of the story and not just one verse. Who do you think the frogs are?
Rev 16:13 — Then I saw three evil spirits like frogs come out of the mouths of the serpent, the beast, and the false prophet.

Rev 20:8 — He will go out to deceive Gog and Magog, the nations in the four corners of the earth, and gather them for war. They will be as numerous as the grains of sand on the seashore.

Do you think the fowls left some to be punished in a destructive fire after they had eaten their flesh? Wouldn't that simply cremate them into ashes and smoke.

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his hosts.
στράτευμα armament, army, host; archaic an army Concise Oxford English Dictionary

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. [AND CREMATED]

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Timothew said:

Read Love Wins.

I don't agree with Rob Bell, but he asks interesting questions. The book is short, you could get it from the library and read it in about an hour. Since you are interested in this topic, it would be good to get familiar with the authors on the topic. Also read Edward Fudge's The Fire that Consumes. It is heavier reading though.

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Thanks, but no thanks. From what I have heard from people I trust and respect there is no need for me to read anything written by Rob Bell.

Matthew 25:


These verses above are speaking about Christ's second coming, even after He died on the cross and rose again He speaks about the judgment of eternal life and eternal punishment. Maybe there is something to this "hell" and "heaven" thing.

Just in case someone was under the impression that Matthew 25:31-46 was a parable.