Archbishop Tutu says he would not worship a "Homophobic" God.

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Skaloop

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No. The argument requires only that such objectives might exist.

Very well.

Why does the universe meet your demands and not Kent Hovind's?

For starters, I never demanded anything of the universe.

But more importantly...

The universe doesn't meet ('meet' in an active rather than passive sense) anyone's needs. Because the universe is not sentient. The universe does not want everybody to accept evolution, because the universe does not want anything. The universe does not punish those who do not accept evolution, because the universe can not punish anybody. The universe does not have the desire to save everyone through evolution, because the universe can not save anybody. The universe does not have the ability to convince anyone of anything, because the universe does not have the ability to convince.

God does have all those attributes. He is sentient, He wants everyone to believe in Him, He punishes those who do not, He wants to save everyone, and He has the ability to convince them. He convinced you, apparently. But not me. Why not?
 
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Cearbhall

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I never said you should believe something just because I say so
Then why do you think I should believe it?

(Also, it would be helpful if you would stop deleting the URL of the post you're quoting.)
3. I don't see that God is obliged to pander to wishes in the way you assume he is.
Clearly, those of us who don't believe in God don't think he's obliged to do anything. This is about our conditions for forming an opinion about something and the fact that religions haven't met our conditions.
 
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Belk

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So you assume it's God's responsibility to overcome every objection any culture or individual can contrive, regardless of what other impact this may have. Or do people have some responsibility in discerning truth?


I assume it is Gods responsibility to provide evidence of his existence if he wishes it to be known he exists, yes. That would seem a reasonable expectation of an all powerful deity that claims to want everyone to love and be in communion with him. Placing the onus on a limited and fallible being that has not been provided with the means to determine the truth seems a rather poor way of running a universe.
 
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ebia

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Cearbhall said:
Then why do you think I should believe it?

(Also, it would be helpful if you would stop deleting the URL of the post you're quoting.)

Clearly, those of us who don't believe in God don't think he's obliged to do anything. This is about our conditions for forming an opinion about something and the fact that religions haven't met our conditions.

1. that would become an apologetic debate which is prohibited

2. I'm not deleting anything. I am using software not the direct web interface.

3. The point is that religions at not obliged to meet your conditions any more than the universe is obliged to meet Kent Hovind's.
 
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ebia

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Belk said:
I assume it is Gods responsibility to provide evidence of his existence if he wishes it to be known he exists, yes. That would seem a reasonable expectation of an all powerful deity that claims to want everyone to love and be in communion with him. Placing the onus on a limited and fallible being that has not been provided with the means to determine the truth seems a rather poor way of running a universe.
See previous comments.
 
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ebia

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Cearbhall said:
Your refusal to stop personifying the universe as if we're the ones who think that way is getting really obnoxious.
Its an analogy

Your demands are equivalent to... because you set your own boundaries on what you will accept. That's not how discovering truth is supposed to work; we take what evidence is provided and attempt to find the truth behind it, not demand that the evidence fit what we want.
 
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Belk

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See previous comments.


I have read them. I fail to see how they absolve God of responsibility for providing evidence of his existence. I, as a limited being, must provide evidence to others that I exist if I wish them to deal with me. I do not hide and demand that they search such evidence out. I don't expect the bank to search me out in order to provide me a loan. Why then should I be expected by a being who is so much more powerful then I to try to track down evidence for his existence? Evidence, I might add, that his devotes seem unable to produce? The obvious answer to me is that the dearth of evidence speaks to a lack existence. Hence the agnostic symbol.
 
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Cearbhall

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3. The point is that religions at not obliged to meet your conditions any more than the universe is obliged to meet Kent Hovind's.
Then I guess there's no reason for me to be a Christian. My point exactly. No belief system has an obligation to meet my conditions, and I don't have an obligation to be a part of any particular belief system.

I expect a bit more from a supposed sentient ruler of the universe than the nonsentient universe itself.
Its an analogy
It's not a proper analogy. One is sentient and the other is not. You're putting words in our mouths by making it sound like we think both concepts are sentient.
That's not how discovering truth is supposed to work; we take what evidence is provided and attempt to find the truth behind it, not demand that the evidence fit what we want.
Good, so you understand us. We don't see evidence for God, but we see evidence for scientific explanations such as evolution. Therefore, we believe in science, but not God. All of our conclusions come from evidence. Atheists have no motive to make the evidence fit a certain explanation, so we don't do that. That would be religious people.
 
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Poddie

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Hi Sophrosyne

It seems to me that looking back through history we can see that the driving force behind Christianity is fear: fear of death, fear of hell fear of Satan, etc.

Yet time and again we read that the god of the Bible is the one to fear the most. Scripture after scripture lays it on the line - it's small wonder that so many Christians refer to themselves as God-fearing.

Here's just a small sample of biblical verses instructing believers to fear their god:


Leviticus 25:17


Deuteronomy 6:13


Joshua 4:23-24


Joshua 23:14


1 Samuel 12:14-15


1 Samuel 12:24


1 Chronicles 16:25-26


Nehemiah 5:9


Psalms 2:11


Psalms 19:9


Psalms 22:23


Psalms 25:12-14


Psalms 31:19


Psalms 33:8-9


Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

The entire Bible is purposeful to Christianity and I love these verses!
 
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Poddie

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That's fine, except plenty of Christians will still quote from the OT when the need takes them.

Anyway, here are a load of "Fear God" scriptures from the NT:


Luke 1:50


Luke 12:5


Acts 9:31


Acts 10:34-35


Jude 1:23


2 Co 5:11


Phillipians 2:12-13


1 Peter 1:17


1 Peter 2:17


Revelation 14:6-7


Revelation 15:4


Revelation 19:5

Khatru, you know where to find a lot of good verses in Scripture. I think that's awesome. It is a feat that should be commended b/c I know many Christians who will profess to love the Lord and go to the ends of earth for Jesus, yet they will flat out refuse to pick up the Bible and read the Word on a daily basis, or they will quote Scripture incorrectly and out-of-context. However, these verses are concise and neatly arranged.

Now, did you actually take time to read all of theses excerpts or did you just copy/paste? Did you glean any wisdom from the words you posted? B/c those verses did wonders for me. Thanks!
 
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Poddie

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Good on you, but hopefully you don't do to people what they tell you to.

Well, I try to follow A LOT of the commandments from the Bible, both the NT and the OT. Do not lie; do not steal; do not murder; treat people the way you'd want to be treated; do not judge; love thy neighbor; forgive unto others, so that you may be forgiven by your Father in Heaven, etc. And, oh yes, Fear the Lord! Yessir, yessir! I really really do.

As mere mortal beings, I believe, a god (which God and Christ are) should be feared and revered with trembling and long-suffering.

Believe you me, it happened to me. I've experienced many visions and dreams and visits from Christ in my lifetime. Many times I have been shown that my salvation was in good standing through the years. Then one day Christ appeared right before I was about to make a misstep in life, concerning a new love interest. Through a symbol of a cross that was tethering on the ledge of a large bookcase, Christ revealed to me that if I did not abandon my fleshly desires that instant and refocus my energy on Him, then I'd lose my spot in heaven. So I obeyed.

Believe you me, I got down on my knees and prayed that instant. I went around telling everybody the next day that I was not going to pursue a relationship with that dude b/c I FEAR THE LORD. <<<< Exact quote. Everybody said you might be making too big a deal of things; He seems like a nice guy, give him a chance; Maybe you misinterpreted the vision, etc. I would reply, you don't get it. I FEAR THE LORD!!! But in a good way, of course.

I could not be moved. I remained obedient. I ceased all contact with the dude. Remained steadfast in prayer for two weeks straight, then received another vision. This time Christ stood before me, we held hands, and an endless flock of sparrows poured from our hearts and soared into the sky. It was a positive affirmation that I had triumphed in this moment of trial.

Later my resolve and my faith in God impressed all the naysayers when it was revealed that this dude was all wrong for me. He ended up contacting me a month or so later, out of the blue. At first, to everyone around it seemed like I might have initially overreacted. He was saying all the right things. "I'll be the new favorite son-in-law; I can see us growing old together; I want to set you up in a nice big house and buy you a porsche, etc. Give me a try... you won't regret it!"

But as I got to know him, his attitude drastically changed. "I'll never get your hair or nails done; You better have your own money for those things, etc." Red flags immediately flew up and I immediately cut it off with him a second time around. Eternally grateful that nothing physical transpired and it is all b/c of my FEAR in the Lord. ;) God is good all the time; All the time God is good.
 
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Poddie

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From what I know about the Book of Job, it doesn't appear to be a particularly good example of a loving god.

Anyway, I thought Satan still works for God:

He's the guy who runs Hell for God - think of him as God's prison governor.

The book of Job is a good book, a cautionary tale.
 
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Poddie

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If God wants me to be "transformed," then why hasn't he done something that would prove that one of the Abrahamic religions is more valid than all other religions?

Believe you me, Christ can definitely answer this prayer. When I first started out in my faith, well over 15 years ago, I maintained a single prayer for several years. As an expectant mom, with her first child on the way, there's only ONE thing I desired most out of this entire world! Similar to your query, I also wanted to know THE PERFECT ANSWER to pass onto my child before I leave this earth! I made this prayer constantly. "Could my child pick and choose any faith and/or religion b/c it doesn't really matter in the end? Or, is Jesus Christ the one and only true way? Should I raise her Christian or fuddle her way and her mind with different options? If Jesus Christ is the only one and true way, then prove it to me so that I know this is the correct answer to pass onto my child."

And I spent ten years praying that prayer. I thought no one was listening. I had given up hope and thought the answers would never come. Then, similar to the tale of Constantine's cross, a giant cross appeared on my wall. I looked at it and said, "That's neat. But what's that got to do with me?" The Holy Ghost spoke, "There's going to be a revival!"

And the Lord has been that prevalent in my life ever since. He's manifested in numerous ways in my life, which included: saving lives through miraculous intervention, witnessing supernatural visions, receiving prophetic messages and more. The stories are endless.

From all the things I've seen, I'd say the Bible is pretty accurate, honestly. But you don't have to take my word for it, you could just pray. ;)
 
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CabVet

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Well, I try to follow A LOT of the commandments from the Bible, both the NT and the OT. Do not lie; do not steal; do not murder; treat people the way you'd want to be treated; do not judge; love thy neighbor; forgive unto others, so that you may be forgiven by your Father in Heaven, etc. And, oh yes, Fear the Lord! Yessir, yessir! I really really do.

As mere mortal beings, I believe, a god (which God and Christ are) should be feared and revered with trembling and long-suffering.

Believe you me, it happened to me. I've experienced many visions and dreams and visits from Christ in my lifetime. Many times I have been shown that my salvation was in good standing through the years. Then one day Christ appeared right before I was about to make a misstep in life, concerning a new love interest. Through a symbol of a cross that was tethering on the ledge of a large bookcase, Christ revealed to me that if I did not abandon my fleshly desires that instant and refocus my energy on Him, then I'd lose my spot in heaven. So I obeyed.

Believe you me, I got down on my knees and prayed that instant. I went around telling everybody the next day that I was not going to pursue a relationship with that dude b/c I FEAR THE LORD. <<<< Exact quote. Everybody said you might be making too big a deal of things; He seems like a nice guy, give him a chance; Maybe you misinterpreted the vision, etc. I would reply, you don't get it. I FEAR THE LORD!!! But in a good way, of course.

I could not be moved. I remained obedient. I ceased all contact with the dude. Remained steadfast in prayer for two weeks straight, then received another vision. This time Christ stood before me, we held hands, and an endless flock of sparrows poured from our hearts and soared into the sky. It was a positive affirmation that I had triumphed in this moment of trial.

Later my resolve and my faith in God impressed all the naysayers when it was revealed that this dude was all wrong for me. He ended up contacting me a month or so later, out of the blue. At first, to everyone around it seemed like I might have initially overreacted. He was saying all the right things. "I'll be the new favorite son-in-law; I can see us growing old together; I want to set you up in a nice big house and buy you a porsche, etc. Give me a try... you won't regret it!"

But as I got to know him, his attitude drastically changed. "I'll never get your hair or nails done; You better have your own money for those things, etc." Red flags immediately flew up and I immediately cut it off with him a second time around. Eternally grateful that nothing physical transpired and it is all b/c of my FEAR in the Lord. ;) God is good all the time; All the time God is good.

Funny how none of that addresses my comment. I will make it again. Hopefully you don't do to people what these verses tell you to.
 
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Poddie

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Funny how none of that addresses my comment. I will make it again. Hopefully you don't do to people what these verses tell you to.

Actually, I did address your question. All the verses that Khatru provided said FEAR the Lord. So I explained to you that I did fear the Lord and then I expounded on a real life example. Both directly addressed your post and your question precisely. Did you happen to read the particular verses you are commenting on? B/c I did and that was all they stated. I tend to agree.
 
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CabVet

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Actually, I did address your question. All the verses that Khatru provided said FEAR the Lord. So I explained to you that I did fear the Lord and then I expounded on a real-life example. Both directly addressed your post and your question precisely. Did you happen to read the particular verses you are commenting on? B/c I did and that was all they stated. I tend to agree.

Let me put this in a different way, if you want your children, subordinates, employees, etc. to respect and love you, do you threat them with eternal death if they refuse? Do you want them to fear you? Do they fear you?
 
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Poddie

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Let me put this in a different way, if you want your children, subordinates, employees, etc. to respect and love you, do you threat them with eternal death if they refuse? Do you want them to fear you? Do they fear you?


Let me answer all of your questions directly.

If you want your children, subordinates, employees, etc. to respect and love you, do you threat them with eternal death if they refuse? No.

Do you want them to fear you? No.

Do they fear you? No.

Now that I&#8217;ve answered these questions, please take the time to ingest what follows, instead of immediately dismissing it and accusing me of ignoring your questions.

Let me put this a different way. The hypothetical scenario that you persistently present is based on a purely emotive reaction. It is faulty logic because it doesn&#8217;t take supernatural phenomenon into account. For instance, would you back talk a god that has smiting capabilities? Or, would you risk eternal damnation after personally witnessing nonbelievers being branded with demonic symbols? Cabvet, do you think we are all alone? There is nothing to fear but fear itself?

The Holy Bible is a supernaturally charged book that is just as potent as any other source on witchcraft and psychic ability. It isn&#8217;t a collection of myths or fairy tales. Demons, angels, spirits and gods are all transdimensional elements and beings that exist in real life.

Where do you think we go when we die? Do you believe life ceases to exist the moment our hearts stop beating?
 
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