Can Christians lose there salvation?

I believe that God does choose us, but we have to respond. Yet God knows who will respond.

*brain melts*

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God "has chosen us before the foundation of the World"---but it is CHRIST who was before the foundation, predestined to die-on-the-Cross; and we are "chosen IN HIM, when we BELIEVE."

Matt22:2-14 explains it very well---ALL are called, SOME respond, and FEWER respond righteously. Verse 14 sums it up nicely: "For MANY are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN."

Those who hold to "Predestined-Election" say that God has TWO calls, a sincere (irresistible) call for His CHOSEN and an INSINCERE call for everyone else...

GOD is INSINCERE???

Yet according to the parable, all were called alike---those who CAME, did so because they wanted to. Those who came AND clothed themselves with righteousness, again was because they wanted to...

Please read 2Thess2:13, Rize---God has "chosen us from the beginning ...through our own faith"---it's not very complicated...

BTW, for those who say "TRULY SAVED will never LEAVE"---you can't bend 2Pet2:20-22 to convey, "they were never REALLY saved"...



(Ben sets a new record with his shortest post ever...)

Continuing the idea that doctrine drives understanding: And because this verse has been brought up a few times here.

Application of eternal security doctrine to 2 Pet 2-20-22

God's nature - Sovereign, Is this a warning from God of some sort? Yes

The cross - Jesus died for my sins - so did He die for the sins in 2 Pet 2-20? Yes.

Salvation - Necessary due to my inherited sin nature. Does 2 Pet 2-20 change the nature of salvation, is my inherited nature omitted from this passage? No

The Law - The old covenant with the Hebrew's - Is 2 Pet. 2-20 a new covenant in some manner? I don't think so?

Context - 2 Peter is about false teachers. The audience is people that once lived under the law. The law was corrupted by power hungry vain controlling teachers of the law. This new covenant was the largest threat ever to the power structure in the Hebrew tradition. To go back to them would be even worse than it was before you left? Sure it would be.

Application - Did I ever live under the law? No, but I would understand that if I ever did, going back would be much worse than the first time. The ones that controlled me would never let me forget about my leaving. Peter called them "ones that denied the Lord that brought them". A hint here: Are they denying Jesus? No, they are denying the cross of Jesus because it was the cross that took their power.

God's nature, the cross, the context, the application, all tell me that God is actually trying to warn me that men who love power and deny the cross of Jesus will try and scare me away from the cross and my total dependence on it's saving work and back into trying to please them by living under their control.

Will this action, should I take it, remove my salvation?
Not if I am saved. How do I know this: 2-9 -The Lord know how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

God will protect me.

Blessings

4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[3] PREDESTINED us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he[4] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen,[5] having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Predestination to me is not the idea that God MAKES us do anything. It is the idea that God is all-knowing and KNOWS us better than we know ourselves. He KNEW and DECIDED (predestined) who His children were before He even formed the earth (see verse 4). HE CHOSE US!!! We do not even have the capability to choose God. IT seems, in our minds, as though we choose Him because we are ignorant humans and would love to give ourselves the credit for choosing such a wonderful God. Who can resist the awesome love of God, IF He is called? IT is crazy for someone that IS NOT chosen by God to even hear the message of God. This is not for man to judge mean you, I believe that we are called to at least share the message with every person we come in contact with, but not all are going to consider it.

18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

God has SPECIFIC number of children, and that number can not be altered by man's free-will or power, THAT IS NUTS, and it isn't Biblical.

Does the Bible say that those who have unconfessed sins are going to be condemned? Nope. Does it say that unconfessed sins are a sin in themselves? Sure, something to that effect, but THAT IS COVERED BY HIS BLOOD TOO!!! The ONLY sin that will not be forgiven in the end is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, pretty much spitting in His face! The Bible tells us that we will be held BLAMELESS in His sight through faith in Chirst Jesus.

Let me break down with words from Paul breking it down a looooong looong time ago:

Galatians 3

15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed,"[7] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God (IT doesn't mena we should stop keeping the laws) and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise (it is no longer something promised to us but can be snatched away); but God in his grace (love without merit) gave it to Abraham through a promise (no strings attached, IT IS YOURS!).
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come (to keep us in-line until our Savior got here). The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law(you could only recieve salvation through NEVER sinning or sacrificing animals when you did). 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin (we are just too darn fleshy), so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ (AMEN), might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith (which I might mention is also a gift from God) should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ (FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW)[8] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law (We are NOT held accountable to the law, but to the faith we have in Christ Jesus!).

26You are all sons of God through faith( not the law) in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed (covered up by Him) yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus(God sees us as ONE, not many). 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. that in parenthesis is mine

What is sin? ANYTHING that separates us from God, right? Well what separates us from God? BREAKING THE LAW (God's law), right? Well we are not under law anymore, FAITH HAS COME!!! Jesus fulfilled the law, He IS the fuylfillment of that law that we were so long held in chains to. If you have faith in Christ then ther is no such thing as unconfessed sin, because HE DIED FOR THAT! DO NOT give yourself credit for what ONLY God can do. Read the scripture and don't read into it. Take it as it is, plain and simple. God does not hide His message from His children, but HE makes it a stumbling block to those who are not of His flock. Come on now. Blessings!

FOMWatts<><

As far as that last post being related to the topic of this forum, it does! IF we are chosen by God can we UNCHOOSE ourselves? NOOO! We can't change what God has predestined to happen! That is craziness!

FOMWatts<><

Yes, I agree that God's word supports that God desires that all would be saved. I also know that His word tells me that many will not be saved because they can't hear His word. But, the ones that do hear will be kept safe by conviction of the Holy Spirit.

God is Holy and can't be in the presence of sin.
God gave us a way to be in His presence, right to the Holy of Holies. It's by covering of sin through the blood of Jesus. God can't see my sin. Through conviction of sin I will keep my ears no matter how ugly I make my life, it's not about this life, it;s about being with God because that is His desire and my need. To save this life is to lose life, this is not my home, sin will not keep me from God, He can't and will not see it, He is Holy, Holy, Holy and I am a stack of rags covered by the blood of Jesus. Anything more I add to my description is only a boast.

We place the emphasis on sin as if we invented it, we inherited it, it's our nature to sin. We need the cross and we also need to see it's work in salvation for what it is, it's all of it, in total.

Blessings

Originally posted by jayemcintyre
I agree that God has known sice before we were created who will be saved, this is because our God is sovereign, however we still have a choice, we have to choose.

God wants us all, God has chosen us all, however some will reject God, some will lose that grace and only because of our own lack of faith or obedience, not because God has left some of us out of the plan.

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God did not choose all of us, when Paul says "us" he is speaking of the ELECT of God. They are a specific people that GOD, not man, chose before time began

Man can not reject God, we don;t have the power to reject such love. Man is instilled with a need for love, and IF God calls a specific child, he will not turn away, and NOTHING, not even the man's own free-will can reject that.

FOMWatts<><

John 10:27-30
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[4] ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

Jesus says NO ONE can snatch them out of His father's hand, and I would go as far as to say you can't even snatch yourself out!

Isaiah 43:10
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD , "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

He has CHOSEN His witnesses. To even be able to know Him you must be chosen.

Matthew 22:14
"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

We are called to invite people to Christ...we , AS MAN, are calling people to Christ, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN. This verse is not syaing that cvalls people and they do not come, it is saying that man calls all peoplt to come, but FEW are CHOSEN by GOD.

Mark 13:20
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

He has a group that He handpicked, and they are HIS children, THE ELECT.


John 13:18
"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me."

HE says he isn't referring to all of them, are some not chosen? SURE!

Romans 8:33
Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.

IF HE has chosen some then there must be some that are NOT chosen.



Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen,[ 1:11 Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Colossians 3:12
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Revelation 17:14
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings–and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

These verses speak for themselves, no real need for explanation. Blessings!

FOMWatts<><

Surely you are not trying to say that God's Word is un/truthful in that the Holy Spirit, or the same Holy Ghost cannot be Grieved & Quenched [AWAY]?? see Matt. 12:31-32

The SPIRIT is said to 'STRIVE WITH MAN' as seen in Gen. 6:3. And God said that in 120 years that He would cease for these ones! Just a thought for you perhaps?? 1 Peter 4:17 states that JUDGEMENT MUST [FIRST] BEGIN with the house of God!

But to be truthful, 'i' must admit to your bottom [missive] that one does not have the power to reject such love---as SOUNDING very wimpy as to those also seen in Rev. 3:16-17's 'SICKENING' love stuff, that WERE TO BE [SPEWED OUT!]? ---P/N/B/
***********

(zapped for contex below)
Man can not reject God, we don;t have the power to reject such love. Man is instilled with a need for love, and IF God calls a specific child, he will not turn away, and NOTHING, not even the man's own free-will can reject that.

FOMWatts<>< [/B][/QUOTE]

Matt 12- 31-32

Leaving out all the reasons to understand that God didn't forget this sin when He forgave me, nor did He ask me to cut out my tounge so that if I talk in my sleep I am not going streight to hell, but just looking at it as it is:

Saying something against the Son (the man Jesus in this context) = forgiven (no Holy Spirit has been given at this point)

Saying something against the Spirit (in the context of Matt this has not yet happned, nor could it until the cross was finished, a new day, a new covenant) = rejecting salavation

Blessings

I in NO WAY said scripture was untruthful, if anything I reitterated it. I am saying that we can not reject God's love, and no scripture says that we can. I am not saying that all that hear of God's love are going to accept it, I AM SAYING that those God has called to be HIS CHILDREN CAN NOT reject His love, or more gently put, they have no desire to reject His love IF they are CHOSEN by Him.

There may very well be a struggle during the calling of a specific man, btu in the end HE will choose the one that calls Him by name. I do believe that we as Christians can grieve the Holy Spirit, but I also believe that we, AS CHRISTIANS, are ONE with Christ, and therefore we are seen blameless and spotless in the sight of God through faith (that HE gave us also) in His Son Jesus.

FOMWatts<><

Context - 2 Peter is about false teachers. The audience is people that once lived under the law. The law was corrupted by power hungry vain controlling teachers of the law. This new covenant was the largest threat ever to the power structure in the Hebrew tradition. To go back to them would be even worse than it was before you left? Sure it would be.

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There are three ways to try to bend 2Pet2:20-22 into fitting "PREDESTINATION":
1. It is the FALSE that "escape" (but not REALLY escape), they never stopped being sows and dogs
2. They never really FELL
3. Just ignore the whole letter believing it only applied to THEM and not to US ("dispensationism")

The first is not true---there are THREE GROUPS in 2Pet2---false teachers, false prophets, and TRUE BELIEVERS. The FALSE seek to entice the TRUE in verse 2:2:18. There are two greek records in verse 18, one (I believe it is the Textus Receptus) uses "oligos" BARELY; the more reliable texts use "Ontos" TRULY. In any case, the FALSE are described as "SLAVES TO CORRUPTION" (vs19), and "NEVER CEASE FROM SIN" (vs 14). Is that clear? "NEVER CEASE FROM SIN" absolutely cannot even APPEAR to have "escaped the defilements of the world".

The second doesn't work---in chapter 1 are they who "escape the world's-corruption-by-lust", through the "EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST"---they are "of the same faith as Peter. Saved? Undeniably. Chapter 2, they are "escaped the defilements of the world through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST"---saved? How can ch1 be saved, and word-for-word ch2 NOT be saved? Intellectual honesty requires us to accept they were just as saved as the escapees in ch1. They "epiginosko-knew" the way of righteousness, but "epistrepho-ek-turned-FROM the holy commandment." Epignosis conveys SAVED KNOWLEDGE---Epistrepho-ek really means "spiritually turned away"; and "epistrepho eis" and "epistrepho epi" really mean "returned to" and "returned unto" the vomit and mire. There IS a time when they are saved and NOT dogs and sows! No way to twist the clear meaning.

We can discuss #3 if you wish---I hold to "COVENANT THEOLOGY", not "DISPENSATIONISM"; I believe God had two contracts (covenants) with us, Law and Grace....

There is no way to honestly bend 2Pet2:20-22 to fit "PREDESTINATION". Perhaps a FOURTH technique would be to say, "It's EMPTY WARNING, meaningless HYPERBOLE"; I do not think it is written just for fun---it has no hint of not being sincere...

4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[3] PREDESTINED us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves...

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The PLAN, is for all who WILL BELIEVE to be saved. Please do a search on the Greek words, "BOULEMA" (which is DECREE), and "THELEMA" (which is DESIRE). God DESIRES that all who see Jesus believe (Jn6:40), but He doesn't decree anyone---there is no one who DOESN'T HAVE A CHOICE. Those who BELIEVE, are predestined towards CHRISTLIKENESS---conditioned upon their BELIEF!

John 10:27-30
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[4] ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

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We've dealt with this time and time again. The word, is "HARPAZO" (the same word for "rapture" in 1Thess4:17) ---it means "seize, remove FORCIBLY" ---it does not contradict "willing apostasy". why are they HIS SHEEP in the first place? Jn10:9 says "if ANYONE enters through Me HE SHALL BE SAVED"; TIS-ANYONE. No limited atonement, complete volition...

Matthew 22:14
"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

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And they who were NOT chosen willingly refused the invitation, or came but refused to become righteous. COMPLETE FREE WILL. How can you deny this? How?

Post #246 again asserts that Gal3 endorses predestination; yet I cited ALL of Galatians in post #240, plainly showing that it conveys warnings against real and dangerous apostasy. Did you not read post #240?

Can you (meaning you-who-hold-PREDESTINATION) deal with posts #237-240? I don't think you can. I certainly mean no disrespect---but (now don't grit your teeth) ...it appears less than honest to engage in discussions, but refuse to rebut (or even read) refutations of your statements. What is the point of discussion if either party will not read and discuss the posts of the other?

To rebut some statements:
Ephesians 1:11-------Eph1:13 says "our BEING-CHOSEN is conditioned on our WILLING BELIEF"

Rom8------harmonizes with Matt22; His CHOSEN are they who BELIEVED (received, came)
(Rom8 also says "walking in the SPIRIT and walking in the FLESH is a CHOICE, always")

1 Thessalonians 1:4-----2Thess2:13 says we were chosen from the beginning THROUGH OUR OWN FAITH

1 Peter 1:2-----2Pet1:9 speaks of those who "FORGOT purification from former sins"; Do you think that one who has FORGOTTEN purification is still SAVED? (Can an UNSAVED ever have BEEN purified? Please read Heb10:29) And it warns us to: be all the more diligent to make CERTAIN about His calling AND ELECTION of us; for as long as we exhibit these traits (see the list), we will not stumble (GREEK: PTAIO-become-WRETCHED); and the EISODOS-GATES of Heaven will be abundantly provided!" We are to be diligent ABOUT OUR ELECTION? Please, PLEASE explain why diligence-about-election is required, if our ELECTION is unilateral from GOD??? And the ENTRANCE to HEAVEN may not be ABUNDANTLY provided, but will still BE provided???

Is there a "LESS-ABUNDANT entrance to Heaven for the sinful/faithless?"

Colossians 3:12-----Col1:20-23 says He will present us before God holy and blameless, ONLY IF we CONTINUE in the faith and NOT BE MOVED AWAY FROM JESUS! How can you deny this? Empty hyperbole? Dispensationism? How?

Revelation 17:14-----does not contradict "chosen by RECEIVING salvation"; Rom5:17 SAYS salvation to "those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and WHO RECEIVE the gift of righteousness"--- do you see any absence of free will? OK, Revelation--- see 22:17: "Let O-THELOS-whosoever-WILL! take of the water of life freely." Do you see any lack of free will here?

God is SOVEREIGN; and IN that sovereignty, He certainly is able to allow EVERY MAN (see Rom5:18) to choose, or not; the only predestination I can find in the Bible (Rom8:29, Eph1:5), shows God's shaping of us towards Christlikeness---on the condition of our BELIEF; "For as many as RECEIVED Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name!" Jn1:12 Contrast this with Eph1, which says we are "adopted as sons through Christ Jesus, according to the kind intention of His will"---according to John6:40, the kind intention of God's will is for all who SEE and willingly BELIEVE, to be SAVED. How can you deny the volition of the individual, in believing? Or NOT?

Please refute our assertions as we have refuted yours.

Please deal with posts #s 237-240.

Thanx in advance...

Hi,
I realize that it is hard to know just what one is trying to get across? But you are not saying that the Holy Spilit was not ACTIVE in the Gen. creation week are you?

And in the case of King Saul? He started out VERY humble. And the Word say's that God GAVE HIM ANOTHER SPIRIT. And down the road King Saul did some things that he knew better than to do! Even telling Samuel that 'he had obeyed the voice of tbe Lord'.

But the 'inspiritional point is this: (and by what means did holy men of God SPEAK? HOLY GHOST!) Now, we see this same King Saul that was Given the Holy Spirit of God, again in this LAST STATE OF HIS 'REBELLIOUS' MATURITY, now had the Holy Spirit REMOVED from him [BY GOD]. Check Gen. 4:6-7 for whose 'm'aster he now became?
P/N/B/

****

Originally posted by eldermike
Matt 12- 31-32

Leaving out all the reasons to understand that God didn't forget this sin when He forgave me, nor did He ask me to cut out my tounge so that if I talk in my sleep I am not going streight to hell, but just looking at it as it is:

Saying something against the Son (the man Jesus in this context) = forgiven (no Holy Spirit has been given at this point)

Saying something against the Spirit (in the context of Matt this has not yet happned, nor could it until the cross was finished, a new day, a new covenant) = rejecting salavation

Blessings

Click to expand...

I don't know what to say. <grin>

Yes the Holy Sprit was active.

But, that's not what Jesus was talking about.
How's that?

Blessings

Hi,
you can't get off the hook that easily! All of these posts are recorded in the heavenly RECORD BOOKS, huh?

But, please tell us all here how does one get once saved always saved from them.. ALL ten VIRGINS that are ASLEEP in Matt. 25?? It took a 'MIDNIGHT CRY' to AWAKEN them even?? (by the way, where did it come from while they were ALL SLEEPING?)

Surely we know that the word for Virgin, represents PURITY? An Virgin Woman, the Bride of Christ with perfect doctrines, no less! see Matt. 23:3 starting with Christ using the Word of "ALL".

But the bottom line is not what most are here STILL saying! Yet, not by much though? And it is also interesting in the graph %'age, of almost 50-50, kinda like five wise & five foolish, huh?? (smile!)

Back too the Matt. 25 group of 'book of lifers'! (almost!) ALL HAD OIL IN THEIR LAMPS! But here is the question for you, OK? Christ said that the DOOR WAS SHUT! So what happened to the ones on the OUTSIDE with only a partial supply of oil?
---P/N/B/

*******

Originally posted by eldermike
I don't know what to say. <grin>

Yes the Holy Sprit was active.

But, that's not what Jesus was talking about.
How's that?

Blessings

Click to expand...

I tell ya what, let's not be so pushy! Let's discuss like brother's and sister's in Christ. I do not agree with you guys about the topic, so what! I KNOW that ONLY those chosen by God are His children, we can not choose God, I gave many many scripture backing that belief. The same Bible I derived those scripture form says NOT to have foolish arguments and to be quite honest this is a pretty foolish one. Salvation is a personal thing and frankly if you want to worry your whole life about whether or not you are saved, be my guest, but I am covered by the GRACE of GOD, and through my faith ALONE in Him, I will be saved. Not by my confession, or by own good works, but by FAITH. That's it to me, and if you guys want to keep on falling away and coming back that's your decision, but it is one I do not find Biblical, but again it is a personal issue.

The way these discussions go on here make me feel like God would not like them, and they truly aren't important to expanding His kingdom. I just want to enjoy the joy that God gives me in KNOWING that I am His and that I always will be, and nothing can change that God is good, and HE wouldn't want us to argue, ESPECIALLY about salvation I love you guys, and though we don;t agree and probably NEVER will on here, I am sure I'll see you in heaven and we can settle it with a friendly wrestling match, okay ? LOL I truly do love you guys!!!

Blessings,
FOMWatts<><