Moses 4:1-4 LDS Satan a Universalist & Free Will Jesus ???

drstevej · Aug 10, 2013

1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

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[1] This extra biblical LDS "scripture" is interesting. It portrays Satan as a universalist who wants everyone redeemed.

[2] It makes messing with "agency" (free will) as the issue causing Lucifer to become Satan.

[3] It describes Jesus holding a view similar to the movie Bruce Almighty's view of God.

Bruce: How do you make someone love you without messing with free will?
God: Welcome to My world, son.

[4] Attributing this to Moses is a clever way to for Smith's to advocate free will among those who accept this as genuine.

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The LDS buzz word "agency" is not found in the KJV.

Sorry! The word "agency" doesn't occur in the KJV.

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Acts 17:11 These {Bereans} were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Pluckiy Pilgrim · Aug 10, 2013

I would just like to point out that the name "Satan" WAS evidently used as a prefix god-name in India sometime in the past.

We don't find these names on the "official" Hindu god name lists, but we do see "Satanand" listed as a name for Vishnu, and "Satinath" and "Satindra" listed as god names for Shiva and or Indra on number of "What to name your baby" lists in India.

Satanand | Meaning of Satanand | origin and personality of Indian baby name Satanand | Indian boy Name meaning Satanand

Indian baby names, Hindu baby names, Indian boy names, Hindu boy names, Hindu baby boy names - Names starting with letter S

I have written to Hindu scholars asking about these names, but I have never received a reply.

All I can conclude is that sometime in the past, various Hindu gods did evidently use names beginning with "Satan" and this word apparently prefixed god names associated with Vishnu, Indra and Shiva. Jewish writers evidently lumped the Vedic gods all together and referred to them as a singular entity, i.e. "Satan."

Under Vedic concepts these gods may have indeed been seen as a singular entity. The Hindu scholar, David Frawley, reports that "Vishnu appears in the Rig Veda as a form of the Sun god. He absorbs all the Sun Gods into himself…" (source p 226, David Frawley, Gods, Sages and Kings, Passage Press, 1991) This concept is remarkably close to Ra of Egypt and Marduk of Babylon who, as sun gods, also absorbed other deities. Ra absorbed 75 known gods and Marduk absorbed 50.

We know from many ancient texts written by a number of different Near and Middle Eastern cultures that the Vedic gods were being worshiped by a number of different people in the Near and Middle East. The names of Vedic gods were often listed in various truce agreements between nations.

drstevej · Aug 10, 2013

Interesting. Why not start a thread on that topic since it really is not germane to this thread.

Phantasman · Aug 10, 2013

I'm losing something, Dr. Are we assuming Satan and Jesus does not have free will? Or questioning the term agency?

Anto9us · Aug 10, 2013

We are assuming yet another Mormon book that is not in my Book of Mormon - I have listed a "Mosiah", but not "Moses".

Sigh.

I am only in 2nd Nephi - it seems there will never be an end to

"Mormon books other than the book of Mormon".

I once saw a rock band called "Shiva's Headband" for one dollar in Austin in 1971. The leader was an electric fiddle player. I like ancient Hindu names.

The original screen-play of BRUCE ALMIGHTY was ghost-written by Arminius in 1607.

"that one soul shall not be lost"

Whose soul was that one guys?

Universalism would say

"that not one soul shall be lost"

drstevej · Aug 10, 2013

2 Nephi.... chapter 5 is an eye opener.

4LivingCreations · Aug 10, 2013

I'm not trying to support the text source in the traditional sense by saying this, but I would like to offer a reading perspective that is different from the one presented in OP, for comparison.

1. The satan being referenced is the "self" concept inside Moses, and it is "self" that Moses has successfully commanded in the name of Jesus.
2. Satan isn't differentiated from Jesus in the fact that he wants to save "all of mankind", but rather in that "he" wants to save all mankind, and he blatantly asks for credit.
3. Jesus contrarily proposes that the credit remain with God.
4. The destruction of the agency of man is when this satan seeks to replace care-taking with ownership, and wield God's power as if it were his own, instead of allowing the power to be channeled through him the way Jesus did.

Even though this source text was generated by a relatively modern human, with unclear motivation, God is 100% in control of everything, and regardless of the author's intent, the power of symbolism and metaphor is retained by God. Read with this mindset, along with brotherly love and a cry for the salvation of all mankind, EVERY secular work of literature speaks the good hope of Jesus, in metaphor and symbolism. Hijacked, if you will, by the Holy Spirit, as a testimony to God's omnipotence.
When done by professing Christians that don't really have their heart in the right place, this hijacking literary effect is the "Lion" of the tribe of "Judah"

bbbbbbb · Aug 12, 2013

drstevej said:
Moses 4:1-4

=====

[1] This extra biblical LDS "scripture" is interesting. It portrays Satan as a universalist who wants everyone redeemed.

[2] It makes messing with "agency" (free will) as the issue causing Lucifer to become Satan.

[3] It describes Jesus holding a view similar to the movie Bruce Almighty's view of God.

Bruce: How do you make someone love you without messing with free will?
God: Welcome to My world, son.

[4] Attributing this to Moses is a clever way to for Smith's to advocate free will among those who accept this as genuine.

=====

The LDS buzz word "agency" is not found in the KJV.

=====

Acts 17:11 These {Bereans} were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

This is an intriguing thread which, I think, merits a serious response from an LDS poster or two. I find it curious that none have stepped to to the plate on this one.

Rescued One · Aug 12, 2013

A little background information:

Joseph Smith, Jr.'s grandfather was a universalist minister.

Joseph Smith Sr.s own father was a Universalist minister who had created a household where spiritual matters were an integral part of every day life. At the time in which John Murray was preaching the precepts of Universalism in Gloucester MA and nurturing that infant religion, there was another Universalist minister in the nearby town of Topsfield named Asael Smith who was assiduously spreading the belief in Universal Salvation.(4)
http://www.christianforums.com/t7757805/#post63543658

Interestingly, Mormonism suggests that very few become Sons of Perdition.

Alvin Smith (11 February 1798 19 November 1823) was the eldest brother of Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement. Alvin took a leading role in helping the Smith family work toward paying their debts and building their home. His death in 1823 at age 25 resulted in his younger brother Joseph taking more of a leading role in family affairs. A vision claimed by Joseph Smith Jr. is said to have included Alvin and played a significant role in the establishment of the Mormon doctrines of redemption of those who die without a knowledge of the gospel and baptism of the dead....

Smith figured prominently in the establishment of the Mormon doctrine of the redemption of the dead and later establishment of the practice of baptism for the dead. On January 21, 1836, after the completion of the Kirtland Temple, Joseph Smith claimed to have had a vision of the celestial kingdom. Smith stated that he saw his brother Alvin in the vision, and was surprised at his presence there since he died before the establishment of the church and its associated doctrines.[9] Smith stated that he then received a revelation concerning the salvation of those who die without hearing the gospel and their ability to receive the same opportunities as those who had the opportunity to hear it on earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Smith_(brother_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.)

drstevej · Aug 12, 2013

Fascinating.

TasteForTruth · Aug 12, 2013

drstevej said:
Moses 4:1-4

=====

[1] This extra biblical LDS "scripture" is interesting. It portrays Satan as a universalist who wants everyone redeemed.

[2] It makes messing with "agency" (free will) as the issue causing Lucifer to become Satan.

[3] It describes Jesus holding a view similar to the movie Bruce Almighty's view of God.

Bruce: How do you make someone love you without messing with free will?
God: Welcome to My world, son.

[4] Attributing this to Moses is a clever way to for Smith's to advocate free will among those who accept this as genuine.

=====

The LDS buzz word "agency" is not found in the KJV.

=====

Acts 17:11 These {Bereans} were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Non-Calvinist NCs (Nicene Christians) believe in "free will," and that it is a Biblical doctrine. Are they, in your opinion, incorrect?

drstevej · Aug 12, 2013

TasteForTruth said:
Non-Calvinist NCs (Nicene Christians) believe in "free will," and that it is a Biblical doctrine. Are they, in your opinion, incorrect?

Start a thread on that topic and I will reply.

TasteForTruth · Aug 12, 2013

drstevej said:
Start a thread on that topic and I will reply.

Your position is relevant to the content of this thread by virtue of this statement of yours:

Attributing this to Moses is a clever way to for Smith's to advocate free will among those who accept this as genuine.

drstevej · Aug 12, 2013

Not really. Start another thread.

TasteForTruth · Aug 12, 2013

drstevej said:
Not really. Start another thread.

Well, I don't really have any interest in the differences of opinion between Arminians and Calvinists, so I'm going to pass on that. And if you don't see my question as relevant to this thread, then I don't have anything substantial to contribute here.

drstevej · Aug 12, 2013

fine by me.

TasteForTruth · Aug 12, 2013

drstevej said:
fine by me.

Rescued One · Aug 12, 2013

Sorry...double post. See below.

Rescued One · Aug 12, 2013

That which Satan sought as being "evil before God" was to force all men to do the will of God. Using compulsion or force he offered to save every person, and for so doing he demanded the honor and the glory that belongs to God. In contrast to Satans proposition, the Lords plan permitted individual progress by giving us the right to choose between good and evil.
ElRay L. Christiansen, The Adversary, New Era, Sept. 1975, 4

However, LDS teach that spirits of the dead who go to spirit prison instead of paradise are subjected to hell until they can be redeemed from that place.

bbbbbbb · Aug 12, 2013

TasteForTruth said:
Non-Calvinist NCs (Nicene Christians) believe in "free will," and that it is a Biblical doctrine. Are they, in your opinion, incorrect?

Do you think the offer of universal salvation is Satanic?

Moses 4:1-4 LDS Satan a Universalist & Free Will Jesus ???

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

Newbie

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

Newbie

Well-Known Member

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

Newbie

bbbbbbb

Guest

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."

Half-truths are lies wearing makeup

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

bbbbbbb

Guest

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