A new video by Aron-Ra
- Thread starter Subduction Zone
- Start date
EternalDragon
Counselor
Now they are saying "without evolution". Which really means "without Natural Selection and mutations" which I don't think anyone excludes.
I just did some initial research with the time I had and found that in humans just blood type has 3 alleles.
(A,B and O blood types). So now I am more confused but only at what Tom is and others are saying.
"It is now known that each of the A, B, and O alleles is actually a class of multiple alleles with different DNA sequences that produce proteins with identical properties: more than 70 alleles are known at the ABO locus."
Yip SP (January 2002). "Sequence variation at the human ABO locus". Annals of Human Genetics 66 (1): 1–27. doi:10.1017/S0003480001008995. PMID 12014997
Last edited:
Upvote
0
EternalDragon
Counselor
Are you saying a human today has more than 16 alleles or that if you take a thousand people and test the DNA, they would have a thousand different alleles between them?
Is there a formula for how many would be needed in a bottleneck?
It says on the Wiki that "a great deal of genetic variation is hidden in the alleles."
So if Noah had one allele for B type blood, his wife for A type blood and one of his sons wives for O type blood (and there are another dozen known genes that effect blood type activity) right there is all the variation for what we have today as far as blood type. Right?
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Not a human. One human can never have more than two alleles and they may be duplicates of each other, so that one person may actually have two copies of the same allele.
Even thousands of different people may not have alleles that differ from one another; they may all have copies of the same allele.
But yes, there can be thousands of different alleles of the same gene in a large population. In any population the theoretical maximum of variations is twice the size of the population. But since most of the time we inherit unchanged copies of two of the alleles our parents had there are usually many copies of each allele in the population as a whole.
As I said, the theoretical maximum for any population is twice the size of the population. Going in reverse, if you know the number of alleles in a population, you know the population cannot be more than half that number. In practice it would be well under half that number because most alleles have duplicate copies distributed among the population. Some more than other. So if a population has 10 alleles of one particular gene, it doesn't mean that each of them are found in 10% of the population. One may be found in 60% of the population, another in 20% and the rest in smaller numbers. (That is why, in humans, brown eyes are much, much more common than blue eyes--not only is the allele for brown eye colour dominant, there are just so many more alleles for brown pigment than for blue pigment.)
No, because as you found out each allele is one of many that will produce the same blood-type.
So if Noah had A-type blood, we know he had one allele in the family of alleles that produce A-type blood. But since his time, where did the other alleles for A-type blood come from? Even if all eight of the family had alleles for A-type blood, at most there could be only 16 available for subsequent generations. And that is assuming that his sons all had mutations in their A-type alleles so that their A-type alleles were different from those of both their father and their mother. If there were no mutations in the inherited alleles, some had to be duplicated--reducing the number of alleles among the eight people. And if one or both of the alleles of Noah's wife were duplicates of Noah's, or any of the son's wives carried some duplicates of alleles found in their husbands, in-laws or each other--still less variation in the original gene pool.
This doesn't just apply to blood type. There are many genes which exist in dozens or hundreds of variant alleles. Both in humans and in other animals. (And the animals had only two flood survivors to start with--giving a maximum of four alleles for any one gene as a base starting-point.)
The only known method of increasing the number of alleles in a population is evolution. But that takes time and the time from the estimates of the date of the flood is just not enough to generate the observed variation from the restricted variation that could have survived the flood as described by creationists.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
EternalDragon
Counselor
Thanks for taking the time and for the explanation gluadys.
One other thing. Is it at all possible that the wives of Noah's son's and his wife as well were diverse enough in their genetic makeup so as to preserve variation? (Genetically distinct from one another).
One other thing. Is it at all possible that the wives of Noah's son's and his wife as well were diverse enough in their genetic makeup so as to preserve variation? (Genetically distinct from one another).
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Dear Gluadys, What if Noah's grandsons had married the descendants of the sons of God (Prehistoric people) who were here when Noah arrived, 10k years ago?
In Love,
Aman
Upvote
0
CabVet
Question everything
- Dec 7, 2011
- 11,738
- 176
- Faith
- Agnostic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
No. Sisters have very similar DNA to one another (which is similar to their parents), and even if they were not biological sisters, the genetic diversity that we observe today in the human population does not coalesce back that soon. Only one thing explains the high genetic diversity in our population today: time.
Upvote
0
It is not preserving variation that is a problem. Although in a small population, some variation can be lost via genetic drift. It is increasing the amount of variations from what can exist in a small population to the level of diversity we see today.
Remember 16 is only a theoretical maximum for 8 people. It implies that not only does every person have two different alleles but their two different alleles are unique to them and not duplicated in any of the seven other people. This is vastly improbable. Especially given that three of the people were brothers, sons of the same man and woman. It could well be that for any particular gene all five of these people had only one version of that gene: ten duplicates of the same allele. At maximum Noah and wife could only have four different alleles and these in some combination would be inherited by all their sons.
Further, in a tribal society of the sort in Noah's time, it is also likely that the son's wives also had duplicates of alleles found in Noah's family, though for some genes, they may have brought in unique alleles. So the actual range of alleles among 8 people in one tribe for any given gene is more probably somewhere between one and six than anywhere near 16.
Yes, whatever level of variation they began with could be preserved. But to get to what we have now, there had to be an impressive increase in alleles that were not part of the genome of any one of those eight people. It is increasing the number of different alleles (not duplicates of the existing alleles) that takes time. Inheritance alone will only give you duplicates of existing alleles.
A recent bottleneck in the human population of only 8 individuals is quite simply impossible.
Upvote
0
- Apr 17, 2006
- 6,214
- 3,834
- 45
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- Atheist
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- AU-Greens
I don't get why you fight evolution Aman. You accept that a basal ape can naturally evolve into an upright, hairless, tool using creature that can breed with a "human" descended from Adam... so we are all descended from monkeys anyway.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
CabVet
Question everything
- Dec 7, 2011
- 11,738
- 176
- Faith
- Agnostic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
Evolution = mutation+natural selection. You can try to redefine it as much as you want, but it will not work. This definition has been accepted since the 1860's.
Did you purposely look for a gene with very few alleles? Here, try this one, hundreds of alleles (and I won't give you a precise number because new ones are discovered all the time):
HLA-B - major histocompatibility complex, class I, B - Genetics Home Reference
But here is the deal. Many alleles of this gene (which appear by mutation) are beneficial, they allow us to fight diseases. So, you are really shooting yourself on the foot here. On the one hand you say that there is no such a thing as a beneficial mutation, but on the other you want to claim that all of these obviously beneficial mutations occurred after the flood. Which one is it? You cannot have it both ways.
Upvote
0
EternalDragon
Counselor
I think it needs an overhaul.
Cool story, but can you give me evidence that Noah and his family did not have these genes?
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Do not shift the burden of proof. You're the one saying that Noah and his family to repopulated the Earth from 8 individuals, against everything we understand about genetics and how our DNA works. The onus is on you to provide an explanation, not on him or anyone else to prove a negative.
Upvote
0
Then it is up to you to show that current theory is wrong. If you can't do that your opinion means nothing.
As has already been pointed out if you want to make the claim that Noah and his family already had these genes it is up to you to prove it.
The person making the positive claim has the responsibility to support his claims. As the great Hitch said: "Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
EternalDragon
Counselor
I don't feel it has even been proven as a theory yet.
I think ID theory is better capable of that than I am.
Upvote
0
EternalDragon
Counselor
That's your opinion. Now you have to prove our current eyewitness report (the Bible) is wrong. If you can't do that then your opinion means nothing.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
First off there is no "ID theory". It seems that you don't know what a theory is.
Second off, yes the use of DNA for various purposes is based upon theory.
Do you think that they base court decision such as whether a man raped a woman on a whim? That is the same science, and theories, that population bottlenecks are based on. Population bottlenecks are not theories, they are based upon theories.
Just like calculating the orbit of a satellite is based upon applying gravitational theory.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
