Strong delusion

zeke37 · Aug 6, 2013

listen
it's all explained in the text itself. 2The2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

so, the subject is revealed
this is about His Coming and our gathering to Him.
did He come in 70 AD and did we gather to Him then? nope.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

so this day is also called the day of Christ

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

this is the timing. Christ come after this deception
this is the meat of the lesson.
someone has to come, pretend to be God (Jesus)
and actually fool the masses into believing it.

but remember that "we" are the temple of God according to Paul
so his message here is about some of us being seduced/fooled

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul had told them of the Coming of the Lord in 1Thes4:13-1Thes5:11.
and 2Thes2 is a continuation of the same,

but Paul now tell them what has to happen first, before that day comes
iow, that day can't happen until thus and thus happens first.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Paul JUST told them above in verses1-4 what has to happen first before that day
so NOW they KNOW about the false one coming to claim deity

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

so the mystery of iniquity is part and parcel with the false Christ/God

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

so the wicked is revealed at His Coming, not before it
and that wickedness is defeated at that same Coming
iow, the world will be seduced until His Coming (all but the elect)

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

so some of us will have the love of the truth
and some of us will not have the love of he truth

the truth is waiting for the true Messiah to Come,
while the rest of the world follows the false one that MUST come first

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

imo this also refers to SOME Christians today,
as many of us, if not most of us, are hypocrites

but there are some of us toady that are not bound by the delusions of the world
and in the end, there will be some that do not fall for the deception of the false Christ
but rather wait patiently till the end

i could go on and on...but that's the jist of it

Bro in Christ · Aug 6, 2013

food4thought said:
2Th 2:7-12 NKJV For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. (8) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (9) The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, (10) and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.(11) And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, (12) that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what this strong delusion will be?

key verse in context is 2 thes 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

these are people who had heard the gospel before the rapture ... 1 cor 15:3-4 and denied him[JC] credit ... matt 7:13-15,21-23 , acts 4:10-12

JLB777 · Aug 6, 2013

food4thought said:
Thank you JLB. I do agree that this will be at least part of the delusion that affects the Jewish people, but what about the rest of the world who will also follow and worship the beast?

CNN and the internet will make his appearance a world wide event.

JLB

food4thought · Aug 7, 2013

Bible2 said:
2 Thessalonians 2:11 - And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The Antichrist will have a False Prophet who will work amazing miracles by which people will be deceived (Revelation 13:12-14, Revelation 19:20, cf. Matthew 24:24). And God will send strong delusion on unrepentant people so that they will believe "the" lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12; in the original Greek there's a "the" before "lie"), which could be the antichrist lie that has been around since the first century AD (2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), and which in the future will deceive the world into worshipping both Lucifer (Satan) the dragon and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3-9), as God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). The antichrist lie denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and/or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), and/or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), which denial is one of the key doctrines of Gnosticism.

It's important for Christians to realize that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, Jesus himself isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus, returned to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it's so important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who ordered people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), while Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan may be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could lie and say that it's YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could lie and say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

The truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself with only the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians now rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as God (the Son) along with God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

Thank you for a very detailed and quite convincing response, Bible2. I found the section on depicting YHWH as an evil God particularly interesting, as it lines up well with part of what I had been thinking.

food4thought · Aug 7, 2013

HannibalFlavius said:
The law has been written upon their hearts, they no longer believe in sacrifices. It was in the beginning that a sin offering had to be made for sins committed unwittingly.

Now they do not believe in sacrifices, but everyone is to keep the laws of Moses that are written upon our hearts. It's just a different sort of law.

We are to show love in everything and be forgiving so that in our love, the law is kept.

The law still judges people in ethical and moral ways.

I don't get a tattoo, although I really want a tattoo, but I wont get one because its against the law.

If I get drunk one night and get a tattoo, I don't see it like some sin that is going to make a difference, but moral and ethical laws do.

I keep this little, least of the commandments because it makes me smile if I can do one thing to be peculiar to my God. These days I am like a sore thumb, everyone has a tattoo.

But the law wasn't just written on our hearts, it is also written on their hearts.

The Jews do not believe in sacrifice and they don't condemn people for not keeping the laws in coming to Jerusalem 3 times a year.

But they cannot build a Temple because they don't have the measurements of a cubit, it is because the temple is ever expanding and it was meant to be a hurdle. They certainly could not sacrifice until the Messiah institutes sacrifice. They cannot do it themselves.

I bolded the key part IMO... they are NOT keeping the Law of Moses, but the moral law written upon their hearts, which is very different from keeping the whole Law of Moses. As James pointed out, if we keep the whole law of Moses but violate any part of it, we are guilty of breaking it all, since it is a unit. The Jews do not, and cannot, keep the Law of Moses because it requires festival attendance, a temple, sacrifice, a Levitical priesthood, etc.

intojoy · Aug 7, 2013

food4thought said:
2Th 2:7-12 NKJV For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. (8) And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (9) The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, (10) and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.(11) And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, (12) that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what this strong delusion will be?

Reprobate mind.

food4thought · Aug 7, 2013

zeke37 said:
listen
it's all explained in the text itself. 2The2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

so, the subject is revealed
this is about His Coming and our gathering to Him.
did He come in 70 AD and did we gather to Him then? nope.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

so this day is also called the day of Christ

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

this is the timing. Christ come after this deception
this is the meat of the lesson.
someone has to come, pretend to be God (Jesus)
and actually fool the masses into believing it.

but remember that "we" are the temple of God according to Paul
so his message here is about some of us being seduced/fooled

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul had told them of the Coming of the Lord in 1Thes4:13-1Thes5:11.
and 2Thes2 is a continuation of the same,

but Paul now tell them what has to happen first, before that day comes
iow, that day can't happen until thus and thus happens first.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Paul JUST told them above in verses1-4 what has to happen first before that day
so NOW they KNOW about the false one coming to claim deity

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

so the mystery of iniquity is part and parcel with the false Christ/God

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

so the wicked is revealed at His Coming, not before it
and that wickedness is defeated at that same Coming
iow, the world will be seduced until His Coming (all but the elect)

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

so some of us will have the love of the truth
and some of us will not have the love of he truth

the truth is waiting for the true Messiah to Come,
while the rest of the world follows the false one that MUST come first

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

imo this also refers to SOME Christians today,
as many of us, if not most of us, are hypocrites

but there are some of us toady that are not bound by the delusions of the world
and in the end, there will be some that do not fall for the deception of the false Christ
but rather wait patiently till the end

i could go on and on...but that's the jist of it

Thank you for your response. Some good insights there, but a few things to note:

1) I fail to see how the man of sin could "sit in the temple" if the temple of God here referred to is us... I agree that we Christians are individually and communally a temple of God, but also think that the context of many other OT and NT prophecies indicate that there will be a Jewish temple built either prior to or during this time period.

2) Paul did indeed speak about this topic before to the Thessalonians, but he is explicitly referring here to something he had told them while he was still with them IN PERSON. So we need not assume that the passage in 1Thes 4-5 is necessarily speaking of exactly the same thing as this passage. They are definitely related, though.

food4thought · Aug 7, 2013

Bowlfullofjelly said:
Yes, we know what it will be. He will claim to be "god", the devil-worshipers will believe the lie because of false miracles and will worship him as "god". He will not claim to be the YHWH or Jesus but will say horrible things about God and His followers.

Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
...12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Thank you for the well thought out post. As for how the man of sin will relate himself to Jesus, I would point you to Bible2's post... he had some interesting thought on that... but I definitely agree that he will exalt himself above all "gods" and have particular hatred for YHWH.

zeke37 · Aug 7, 2013

food4thought said:
Thank you for your response. Some good insights there, but a few things to note:

1) I fail to see how the man of sin could "sit in the temple" if the temple of God here referred to is us... I agree that we Christians are individually and communally a temple of God,

if a false Christ comes first, pretends to be Jesus,
and deceives/seduces some of the potential bride,
then he will sit in some of "us" as God, showing that he is God

but also think that the context of many other OT and NT prophecies indicate that there will be a Jewish temple built either prior to or during this time period.

i disagree.
i understand that some of us believe that....but i disagree.
Christ builds(is building) the prophetic temple, not Jews

2) Paul did indeed speak about this topic before to the Thessalonians, but he is explicitly referring here to something he had told them while he was still with them IN PERSON. So we need not assume that the passage in 1Thes 4-5 is necessarily speaking of exactly the same thing as this passage. They are definitely related, though.

AGREED.

ancientsoul · Aug 7, 2013

re: 2 Thess 2:11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe in a lie:

Romans 1:24,25,26 ... the guilt of mankind ... Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between them: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women change the natural use into that which is against nature: con'td Romans 1:27-32 ...

comment: i.e. whoring around with the enemy and his ways ... i.e. spiritual adultery!

Psalm 81:12 ...God's goodness and Israel's waywardness ... So I gave them up unto their own heart's lust: and they walked in their own counsels.

counsels = desires ...

Acts 7:42,43 ... Stephen's defense ... Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

again ... whoring around with the enemy ... i.e. spiritual adultery ...

Deuteronomy 32:15 ... the Song of Moses ... But Jeshrun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsoook God which made him,

comment spritual adultery ... whoring with the enemy ... acting willfully ... forsaking God ...

Isaiah 1:2-4 ... Judah, a sinful nation ... Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: But Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.Ah, sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

comment: rebelled against God ... spiritual adultery ... forsaking him for the ways of the world ... i.e. the ways of the enemy ... whoring around with the enemy and his ways ...

Jeremiah 2:11,12 ... Jeremiah's message to sinful Israel ... Hath a nation changed their gods, which yet are no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit. Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the Lord.

comment: spiritual adultery ... whoring around with other gods ...

Jeremiah 9:3,6 ... Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a harlot's forehead, thou refuseth to be ashamed. ... (6) Israel and Judah entreated to repent ... The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up on every high mountain and under ecery green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

comment: WHORING around with the enemy ... spiritual adultery ...

Matthew 3:7 ... the preaching of John the Baptist ... But when the Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

comment: who hath taught them to fly away ...

Ephesians 4:18,19 ... Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling gave given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleaness with greediness.

comment: spiritual adultery ... whoring around with the enemy ...

1 Corinthians 6:15-18 ... Christians and the law ... Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them members of a harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that which is joined to a harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the LOrd is one spirit. Flee fornification. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.

comment: again spiritual adultery ... in bed with the enemy ... whoring around with the enemey ...

Leviticus 18 ... acts of imorality forbidden ... these things are STILL the law ... verse 18 says 'it is an abimination' ...

1 Timothy 4:1 ... predictions of apostasy ... Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Revelation 16:14,15 ... the vials of wrath ... For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and the whole world, to gather them to the battle of the great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 ... instructions concerning the day of the Lord ... Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

comment: unrighteousness is the cause of the strong delusiojn ... forsaking God and going with the enemy and his ways ... lusting after things of the flesh ... fo0rsaking God's laws ...

Luke 2:1 ... the birth of Jesus ... And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

comment: tried to find out if this law ever changed ... not sure, but don't believe it has ...

Revelation 17:4 ... And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication .

comment: fornification = spiritual adultery ... whoring around with the enemy ...

Matthew 24:23 ... no man knows the day ... Jesus saith ... But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son od man cometh.

comment: NOT on the watch most think ... AFTER the anit-christ rears his wicked head ...

the delusion is that Jesus comes first ... and God's children are flown away first ... i believe that is a big NO ... the sin of spiritual whoredom will run rampant when the anti-christ comes ... (and already does) and many of GOD"S CHILDREN will fall to it ... one can't fall to something they don't belong to ... if they are not one of God's children yet ... then they are not part of the church that can and does fall away ...

know what watch He will come ...

food4thought · Aug 7, 2013

ancientsoul said:
re: 2 Thess 2:11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe in a lie:

Romans 1:24,25,26 ... the guilt of mankind ... Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between them: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women change the natural use into that which is against nature: con'td Romans 1:27-32 ...

comment: i.e. whoring around with the enemy and his ways ... i.e. spiritual adultery!

Psalm 81:12 ...God's goodness and Israel's waywardness ... So I gave them up unto their own heart's lust: and they walked in their own counsels.

counsels = desires ...

Acts 7:42,43 ... Stephen's defense ... Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

again ... whoring around with the enemy ... i.e. spiritual adultery ...

Deuteronomy 32:15 ... the Song of Moses ... But Jeshrun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsoook God which made him,

comment spritual adultery ... whoring with the enemy ... acting willfully ... forsaking God ...

Isaiah 1:2-4 ... Judah, a sinful nation ... Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: But Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.Ah, sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

comment: rebelled against God ... spiritual adultery ... forsaking him for the ways of the world ... i.e. the ways of the enemy ... whoring around with the enemy and his ways ...

Jeremiah 2:11,12 ... Jeremiah's message to sinful Israel ... Hath a nation changed their gods, which yet are no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit. Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the Lord.

comment: spiritual adultery ... whoring around with other gods ...

Jeremiah 9:3,6 ... Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a harlot's forehead, thou refuseth to be ashamed. ... (6) Israel and Judah entreated to repent ... The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up on every high mountain and under ecery green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

comment: WHORING around with the enemy ... spiritual adultery ...

Matthew 3:7 ... the preaching of John the Baptist ... But when the Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

comment: who hath taught them to fly away ...

Ephesians 4:18,19 ... Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling gave given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleaness with greediness.

comment: spiritual adultery ... whoring around with the enemy ...

1 Corinthians 6:15-18 ... Christians and the law ... Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them members of a harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that which is joined to a harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the LOrd is one spirit. Flee fornification. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.

comment: again spiritual adultery ... in bed with the enemy ... whoring around with the enemey ...

Leviticus 18 ... acts of imorality forbidden ... these things are STILL the law ... verse 18 says 'it is an abimination' ...

1 Timothy 4:1 ... predictions of apostasy ... Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Revelation 16:14,15 ... the vials of wrath ... For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and the whole world, to gather them to the battle of the great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 ... instructions concerning the day of the Lord ... Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

comment: unrighteousness is the cause of the strong delusiojn ... forsaking God and going with the enemy and his ways ... lusting after things of the flesh ... fo0rsaking God's laws ...

Luke 2:1 ... the birth of Jesus ... And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

comment: tried to find out if this law ever changed ... not sure, but don't believe it has ...

Revelation 17:4 ... And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication .

comment: fornification = spiritual adultery ... whoring around with the enemy ...

Matthew 24:23 ... no man knows the day ... Jesus saith ... But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son od man cometh.

comment: NOT on the watch most think ... AFTER the anit-christ rears his wicked head ...

the delusion is that Jesus comes first ... and God's children are flown away first ... i believe that is a big NO ... the sin of spiritual whoredom will run rampant when the anti-christ comes ... (and already does) and many of GOD"S CHILDREN will fall to it ... one can't fall to something they don't belong to ... if they are not one of God's children yet ... then they are not part of the church that can and does fall away ...

know what watch He will come ...

Thank you for the reply. I think I agree with much of what your saying here, but a few points struck me while reading:

1) Not every mention of fornication or adultery is speaking of spiritual adultery... I think the passage in 1Cor 6 you quoted was speaking primarily of literal sexual conduct. Not disagreeing with the general idea you were developing, just pointing out what I think is a misuse of that particular passage (yeah, I can be a stickler about such things at times, sorry).

2) I have absolutely NO idea what you were trying to say regarding the mention of the census around Jesus' birth.

3) Finally, regarding the pre-trib rapture... I have no desire to try to bring you around to my view on this, but I do feel compelled to point out that the apostasy spoken of is already occurring in the western world. Whole denominations are departing from the doctrines of Scripture and elevating man's wisdom and the desires of the flesh over what the Bible clearly says. Many groups barely give lip service to the authority of the Bible at all. Fewer and fewer young people are self identifying themselves as Christians in the western world.

4) Continuing upon that theme, God has not appointed His church to wrath, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it... yet it is made clear in several places in Revelation 6-18 that God is pouring His wrath out upon the world, and power is given to the beast to make war with the saints and to overcome them. If the saints mentioned in Revelation 6-18 are the church, then Paul and Jesus spoke untruth. The church is mentioned many times in Rev 1-3, but not once between Rev 4-18, and then mentioned again several times in Rev 19-22.

ancientsoul · Aug 7, 2013

food4thought said:
Thank you for the reply. I think I agree with much of what your saying here, but a few points struck me while reading:

1) Not every mention of fornication or adultery is speaking of spiritual adultery... I think the passage in 1Cor 6 you quoted was speaking primarily of literal sexual conduct. Not disagreeing with the general idea you were developing, just pointing out what I think is a misuse of that particular passage (yeah, I can be a stickler about such things at times, sorry).

2) I have absolutely NO idea what you were trying to say regarding the mention of the census around Jesus' birth.

3) Finally, regarding the pre-trib rapture... I have no desire to try to bring you around to my view on this, but I do feel compelled to point out that the apostasy spoken of is already occurring in the western world. Whole denominations are departing from the doctrines of Scripture and elevating man's wisdom and the desires of the flesh over what the Bible clearly says. Many groups barely give lip service to the authority of the Bible at all. Fewer and fewer young people are self identifying themselves as Christians in the western world.

4) Continuing upon that theme, God has not appointed His church to wrath, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it... yet it is made clear in several places in Revelation 6-18 that God is pouring His wrath out upon the world, and power is given to the beast to make war with the saints and to overcome them. If the saints mentioned in Revelation 6-18 are the church, then Paul and Jesus spoke untruth. The church is mentioned many times in Rev 1-3, but not once between Rev 4-18, and then mentioned again several times in Rev 19-22.

1. literal fornification becomes spiritual fornification when it crosses the laws about these things ... for example if one literally fornicates with an animal ... it is also spiritual fornification because it goes against God's law ...

2. the census about Jesus birth ... i was reluctant to add it, but it was with the scriptures offered on this ... this scripture has come up more than once when talking seeking end things ... i believe it is because the taxing is the trying and testing of God's people ... and maybe it has something to do with what the anti-christ will do ... tax and try and test the patience of the saints ... so yes, it is confusing, but felt to post it anyway ...

3. oh, yes, it is everywhere and place ... but it will get much worse ... much, much worse ... most Christians in the free-world have no idea what really bad is ... i would agree that the falling away has already began ... to a degree ... but, again, it will get much worse ... there will be those who trun their loved ones over to the anti-christ because they honestly believe he really is Jesus ... they will throw their loved ones into the lions den and the fiery furnace and all ... but God protected them and He will protect us ... He says He won't leave us, nor forsake us ... i believe Him ...

4. i agree, no, we are not appointed to His wrath ... the world and their ways are ... we are not of this world ... and thus should believe and have faith ... to the end ... for those who endure to the end ... are saved ... the enemy cannot hurt us ... He says os ... either we believe ... or ... we fly ... that's where it for me ... each to his own ... i have no desire to change hearts that won't change ... just laying our the facts ... as i see them ...

ty for your reply ... it is truly appreciated ...

when we read the servant is not more than his master ... it is safe to believe they tried, tested, and taxed Jesus ... why would we think they wouldn't do that to us ... jmho

zeke37 · Aug 7, 2013

ancientsoul said:
re: 2 Thess 2:11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe in a lie:

Romans 1:24,25,26 ... the guilt of mankind ... Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between them: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women change the natural use into that which is against nature: con'td Romans 1:27-32 ...

comment: i.e. whoring around with the enemy and his ways ... i.e. spiritual adultery!

Psalm 81:12 ...God's goodness and Israel's waywardness ... So I gave them up unto their own heart's lust: and they walked in their own counsels.

counsels = desires ...

Acts 7:42,43 ... Stephen's defense ... Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

again ... whoring around with the enemy ... i.e. spiritual adultery ...

Deuteronomy 32:15 ... the Song of Moses ... But Jeshrun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsoook God which made him,

comment spritual adultery ... whoring with the enemy ... acting willfully ... forsaking God ...

Isaiah 1:2-4 ... Judah, a sinful nation ... Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: But Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.Ah, sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

comment: rebelled against God ... spiritual adultery ... forsaking him for the ways of the world ... i.e. the ways of the enemy ... whoring around with the enemy and his ways ...

Jeremiah 2:11,12 ... Jeremiah's message to sinful Israel ... Hath a nation changed their gods, which yet are no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit. Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the Lord.

comment: spiritual adultery ... whoring around with other gods ...

Jeremiah 9:3,6 ... Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a harlot's forehead, thou refuseth to be ashamed. ... (6) Israel and Judah entreated to repent ... The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up on every high mountain and under ecery green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

comment: WHORING around with the enemy ... spiritual adultery ...

2Cor11:1-4 agrees

Matthew 3:7 ... the preaching of John the Baptist ... But when the Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

comment: who hath taught them to fly away ...

see Ez13, and compare with Ez44

Ephesians 4:18,19 ... Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling gave given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleaness with greediness.

comment: spiritual adultery ... whoring around with the enemy ...

1 Corinthians 6:15-18 ... Christians and the law ... Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them members of a harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that which is joined to a harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the LOrd is one spirit. Flee fornification. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.

comment: again spiritual adultery ... in bed with the enemy ... whoring around with the enemey ...

Leviticus 18 ... acts of imorality forbidden ... these things are STILL the law ... verse 18 says 'it is an abimination' ...

1 Timothy 4:1 ... predictions of apostasy ... Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

amill'ism, post mill'ism, pre trib rapture, etc, etc, etc.

Revelation 16:14,15 ... the vials of wrath ... For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and the whole world, to gather them to the battle of the great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 ... instructions concerning the day of the Lord ... Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

comment: unrighteousness is the cause of the strong delusiojn ... forsaking God and going with the enemy and his ways ... lusting after things of the flesh ... fo0rsaking God's laws ...

Luke 2:1 ... the birth of Jesus ... And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

comment: tried to find out if this law ever changed ... not sure, but don't believe it has ...

Revelation 17:4 ... And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication .

comment: fornification = spiritual adultery ... whoring around with the enemy ...

Matthew 24:23 ... no man knows the day ... Jesus saith ... But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son od man cometh.

comment: NOT on the watch most think ... AFTER the anit-christ rears his wicked head ...

at the last day of his reign is when Christ comes...

the delusion is that Jesus comes first ... and God's children are flown away first ... i believe that is a big NO ... the sin of spiritual whoredom will run rampant when the anti-christ comes ... (and already does) and many of GOD"S CHILDREN will fall to it ... one can't fall to something they don't belong to ... if they are not one of God's children yet ... then they are not part of the church that can and does fall away ...

know what watch He will come ...

imo as well, pre trib rapture is the real danger

ancientsoul · Aug 7, 2013

zeke37 said:
2Cor11:1-4 agrees

see Ez13, and compare with Ez44

amill'ism, post mill'ism, pre trib rapture, etc, etc, etc.

at the last day of his reign is when Christ comes...

imo as well, pre trib rapture is the real danger

haven't focused on 'the last day of His reign' ... i'm guessing you mean He's reigning now ... but that the last day of His reign will be His coming ? in that sense, i would agree ...

the pre-trib rapture is what i mean when i say 'flying out of here ... or flown out of here' ... i'm relatively new to the thought of there being any other rapture than that one ... don't believe i believe in any rapture, but can't say i can stand on that at at his point ... the pre-trib rapture is a no brainer for me, tho

...

ty, for your reply ... it blesses me to know i am not alone in my view ...

zeke37 · Aug 7, 2013

food4thought said:
4) Continuing upon that theme, God has not appointed His church to wrath, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it... yet it is made clear in several places in Revelation 6-18 that God is pouring His wrath out upon the world, and power is given to the beast to make war with the saints and to overcome them. If the saints mentioned in Revelation 6-18 are the church, then Paul and Jesus spoke untruth.

hi
sorry but i have to say, absolutely not.

a. Rev is not completely linear. it has sections. easiy proven
b. the wrath that is poured out, is actually pouredin Rev16.

you misunderstand because the wrath of God is not the trib.
the wrath of God is not poured out until the last day of the trib.
and it is poured out on those that fail the trib.

The church is mentioned many times in Rev 1-3, but not once between Rev 4-18, and then mentioned again several times in Rev 19-22.

the church is mentioned as individuals, all through Rev.
in Rev6's 6th seal, folks are martyred still, and have to wait till the end.
in Rev12, read the last verse...only Christians qualify
Saints are mentioned in Rev13, during the ac's reign, and are told to have patience

but as for Rev1-3, we are supposed to see the menorah pictured.
7 candlesticks, fed oil by 2 olive trees, with Christ in the midst.
see Zec4 for the definition of the two prophet witnesses.

problem is that in Rev2-3 there are only 2 of 7 churches that are not chastized by Christ.
iow, only 2 of the 7 get the oil....the other 5 have no oil...dry.

so when we read Rev11 and the to candlesticks,
we know what is referred to....the 2 faithful (unchastized) churches of Rev2-3.

simply put, there is no pre trib rapture at all.
it's a farce meant to deceive you, if it be possible

zeke37 · Aug 7, 2013

ancientsoul said:
haven't focused on 'the last day of His reign' ... i'm guessing you mean He's reigning now ... but that the last day of His reign will be His coming ? in that sense, i would agree ...

sure, but i meant the AC's reign...
folks argue over WHEN the Lord Comes to gather us
it i not pre or mid trib,it is post, after...at the end of the AC's reign...

the pre-trib rapture is what i mean when i say 'flying out of here ... or flown out of here' ...

ya i know...
that' why i gave extra scripture support with Ez13 (fly away)
and Ez44 (who taught that bunk to who)

i'm relatively new to the thought of there being any other rapture than that one ... don't believe i believe in any rapture, but can't say i can stand on that at at his point ... the pre-trib rapture is a no brainer for me, tho ...

in my understanding the Lord Comes to gather us at the last day.
so that gathering to Christ, i refer to as the rapture, simply because so many others do.
but it's at the very end of the trib,not the beginning or the midst.
it's at the lst day, because the dead are brought from heaven and raised here

and we don't go to heaven at the rapture, we are simply gathered to Christ where ever He is...
ie, we go up to Jerusalem to meet Him, not heaven

ty, for your reply ... it blesses me to know i am not alone in my view ...

your welcome
Rom11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

zeke37 · Aug 7, 2013

disciple1981 said:
The strong delusion is belief in a Pre-tribulation rapture.

seems like that is what it will boil down to

intojoy · Aug 7, 2013

Ok food,

What is your understanding of Satan's impregnating a woman and producing a counterfeit virgin birth? Is this something you consider to be the strong delusion?
Thanks

ancientsoul · Aug 7, 2013

zeke37 said:
sure, but i meant the AC's reign...
folks argue over WHEN the Lord Comes to gather us
it i not pre or mid trib,it is post, after...at the end of the AC's reign...

ya i know...
that' why i gave extra scripture support with Ez13 (fly away)
and Ez44 (who taught that bunk to who)

in my understanding the Lord Comes to gather us at the last day.
so that gathering to Christ, i refer to as the rapture, simply because so many others do.
but it's at the very end of the trib,not the beginning or the midst.
it's at the lst day, because the dead are brought from heaven and raised here

and we don't go to heaven at the rapture, we are simply gathered to Christ where ever He is...
ie, we go up to Jerusalem to meet Him, not heaven

your welcome
Rom11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

okay, i get what you mean by the last day ... just have this ever need to make sure of what i agree to ... lol ... and to the rest, i get that, too ... now i understand better what people mean when they say a later rapture ... i agree it will be where He congregates us ... at the end ... and that we go to Jerusalem to meet Him ...

totally ... those who have not bowed to the image of Baal ... to me that means worshipping and serving anything that is not of the Lord ...

something about the remnant ... a while back i started some notes on the remnant ... now have misplaced them so was never to continue ... yet ... i thought at that point the verses made it clear that the remnant is AFTer 1/3 = 1/3 = 1/3 ... i.e. not part of the whole other ... it intrigued me ... do you have any knowledge on that?

ancientsoul · Aug 7, 2013

zeke37 said:
2Cor11:1-4 agrees

see Ez13, and compare with Ez44

amill'ism, post mill'ism, pre trib rapture, etc, etc, etc.

at the last day of his reign is when Christ comes...

imo as well, pre trib rapture is the real danger

lol ... now i see this ... absolutely ... i couldn't agree more ... the pre-trib rapture being the real danger

spot on ... ezekiel 13 is a thread i hope to get to ... spent much time in exekiel 44, but never actually compared it ... will do ...

interesting take on other doctrines ... could well include them ... i tend to lean to things like doctrines that allow for 'communicating with the dead' ... and then bring past lives into it and such ... the whole of that being just against Truth ... as in, we're not to try to communicate ... and we have one life ... past, present, and hopefully future ... but yeah, those would fit in with what i believe to be true ...

Strong delusion

IMO...

Newbie

Newbie

Loving truth

Loving truth

Well-Known Member

Loving truth

Loving truth

IMO...

queen of broken hearts

Loving truth

queen of broken hearts

IMO...

queen of broken hearts

IMO...

IMO...

IMO...

Well-Known Member

queen of broken hearts

queen of broken hearts

Similar threads