The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment in Hell.

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Evergreen48

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This is a popular argument for those who do not believe in a literal "hell But it is totally false! Scholarly studies have been done and there is no archaeological or literary evidence that the valley of Hinnom was ever used as a garbage dump or a place for disposing of bodies. Note the source of this fiction Rabbi David Kimhe, ca. A.D. 1200

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.​



You forgot to give the source for this info, so I will give it for you. It can be found word for word under the heading of "Tophet, in the Wickipedia.

David Kimhi (Hebrew: דוד קמחי‎, also Kimchi or Qimḥi) (1160–1235), also known by the Hebrew acronym as the RaDaK (רד"ק), was a medieval rabbi, biblical commentator, philosopher, and grammarian.
Kimhi was born in Narbonne, Provence, the youngest son of Rabbi Joseph Kimhi and the brother of Rabbi Moses Kimhi, both biblical commentators and grammarians. His father died while David was still as a child, and Kimhi was raised by his brother Moses.[1]
Later, he supported himself by teaching Talmud to the young. He was well versed in the whole range of Hebrew literature, and became the most illustrious representative of his name. Works of the Kimhi family were underwritten by the Ibn Yahya family of Lisbon, Portugal.[2]
Scholarship


David Kimhi saw himself primarily as a compiler and summarizer. As a noted Hebrew grammarian, his book Michlol (מכלול) and his dictionary of the Hebrew language called Sefer Hashorashim (Book of Roots) (ספר השורשים) draws heavily on the earlier works of Rabbi Judah ben David Hayyuj and Rabbi Jonah ibn Janah, as well as from the work of his father. These two books were originally written as one, though over the years, they have come to be printed separately. This book, while based on his predecessors, shows a significant amount of innovation, stakes out new territory in his scholarly fields, and from a methodological point of view is superior to what came before. For example, in Michlol, Kimhi expounds on his predecessors' opinions in a clear, straightforward way with a comprehensive approach to the Hebrew structure. Sefer Hashorashim highlights his talent as a writer because of its logical organization, particularly the way he bases his definitions upon 1) etymology and 2) comparisons between languages. Another of Ḳimḥi's works, "'Eṭ Sofer," was a sort of abridged version of Michlol and acted as a manual for biblical scribes. This was a necessary compilation of rules for the writing of Bible-rolls, Masoretic notes, and accents, due to widespread ignoracnce among the scribes of the 12th century. ~Wickipedia ~

Hermann Leberecht Strack (1848–1922) was a German Protestant theologian and Orientalist; born at Berlin May 6, 1848. Since 1877 he was assistant professor of Old Testament exegesis and Semitic languages at the University of Berlin. He was the foremost Christian authority in Germany on Talmudic and rabbinic literature, and studied rabbinics under Steinschneider. Since the reappearance of anti-Semitism in Germany, Strack had been the champion of the Jews against the attacks of such men as Hofprediger Adolf Stoecker, Professor August Rohling, and others. In 1885 Strack became the editor of Nathanael. Zeitschrift für die Arbeit der Evangelischen Kirche an Israel, published at Berlin; and in 1883 he founded the Institutum Judaicum, which aims at the conversion of Jews to Christianity. In the beginning of his career the Prussian government sent Strack to St. Petersburg to examine the Bible manuscripts there; on this occasion he examined also the antiquities of the Firkovich collection, which he declared to be forgeries. This claim was found to be untrue: the Firkovich collection is closely related to Cairo Geniza material found by Solomon Schechter. ~ Wickipedia ~

Paul Billerbeck
(1853–1932) was a Lutheran minister and scholar of Judaism, best known for his Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Midrash (German, 1926) co-written with Hermann Strack. Billerbeck was born in Prussia to Jewish parents and educated in Greifswald and Leipzig.[1][2][3] Billerbeck's participation in Strack's Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Midrash commenced in 1906 when Strack encouraged Billerbeck to compile and expand the material of John Lightfoot, Christian Schoettgen (1733) and Johann Jacob Wetstein for a new German commentary on the New Testament using rabbinical literature.[4] ~ Wickipedia ~

So how is it that these two men's (Billerbeck and Strack) work take precedence over Kimchi's work?



Historical Jewish sources prove this to be false. The ancient Jews used both Gehinnom and sheol to refer to the place of conscious, eternal, fiery torment. Scripture highlighted in blue.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.
* * *
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online




See Jewish Encyclopedia above. The confusion comes when people today try to force their current day beliefs into the Biblical text.


I did not say anything about sheol. I said that Gehenna and Hades are two different places, and there is absolutely nothing in your Jewish Encyclopedia quote that says otherwise. In the OT, sheol is simply the grave, and sometimes all the graves of the departed are collectively spoken of as being sheol.
 
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You forgot to give the source for this info, so I will give it for you. It can be found word for word under the heading of "Tophet, in the Wickipedia.

I don't recall where I found that quote but I can promise you it was not wiki. Wiki is about as reliable as the graffiti scribblings on an abandoned building. Edited to add: The primary source for this quote is Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992, p. 328.

Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1

Evergreen48 said:
David Kimhi (Hebrew: דוד קמחי‎, also Kimchi or Qimḥi) (1160–1235), also known by the Hebrew acronym as the RaDaK (רד"ק), was a medieval rabbi, biblical commentator, philosopher, and grammarian.
Kimhi was born in Narbonne, Provence, the youngest son of Rabbi Joseph Kimhi and the brother of Rabbi Moses Kimhi, both biblical commentators and grammarians. His father died while David was still as a child, and Kimhi was raised by his brother Moses.[1] Later, he supported himself by teaching Talmud to the young. He was well versed in the whole range of Hebrew literature, and became the most illustrious representative of his name. Works of the Kimhi family were underwritten by the Ibn Yahya family of Lisbon, Portugal.[2]

Scholarship

David Kimhi saw himself primarily as a compiler and summarizer. As a noted Hebrew grammarian, his book Michlol (מכלול) and his dictionary of the Hebrew language called Sefer Hashorashim (Book of Roots) (ספר השורשים) draws heavily on the earlier works of Rabbi Judah ben David Hayyuj and Rabbi Jonah ibn Janah, as well as from the work of his father. These two books were originally written as one, though over the years, they have come to be printed separately. This book, while based on his predecessors, shows a significant amount of innovation, stakes out new territory in his scholarly fields, and from a methodological point of view is superior to what came before. For example, in Michlol, Kimhi expounds on his predecessors' opinions in a clear, straightforward way with a comprehensive approach to the Hebrew structure. Sefer Hashorashim highlights his talent as a writer because of its logical organization, particularly the way he bases his definitions upon 1) etymology and 2) comparisons between languages. Another of Ḳimḥi's works, "'Eṭ Sofer," was a sort of abridged version of Michlol and acted as a manual for biblical scribes. This was a necessary compilation of rules for the writing of Bible-rolls, Masoretic notes, and accents, due to widespread ignoracnce among the scribes of the 12th century. ~Wickipedia ~

Hermann Leberecht Strack (1848–1922) was a German Protestant theologian and Orientalist; born at Berlin May 6, 1848. Since 1877 he was assistant professor of Old Testament exegesis and Semitic languages at the University of Berlin. He was the foremost Christian authority in Germany on Talmudic and rabbinic literature, and studied rabbinics under Steinschneider. Since the reappearance of anti-Semitism in Germany, Strack had been the champion of the Jews against the attacks of such men as Hofprediger Adolf Stoecker, Professor August Rohling, and others. In 1885 Strack became the editor of Nathanael. Zeitschrift für die Arbeit der Evangelischen Kirche an Israel, published at Berlin; and in 1883 he founded the Institutum Judaicum, which aims at the conversion of Jews to Christianity. In the beginning of his career the Prussian government sent Strack to St. Petersburg to examine the Bible manuscripts there; on this occasion he examined also the antiquities of the Firkovich collection, which he declared to be forgeries. This claim was found to be untrue: the Firkovich collection is closely related to Cairo Geniza material found by Solomon Schechter. ~ Wickipedia ~

Paul Billerbeck (1853–1932) was a Lutheran minister and scholar of Judaism, best known for his Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Midrash (German, 1926) co-written with Hermann Strack. Billerbeck was born in Prussia to Jewish parents and educated in Greifswald and Leipzig.[1][2][3] Billerbeck's participation in Strack's Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Midrash commenced in 1906 when Strack encouraged Billerbeck to compile and expand the material of John Lightfoot, Christian Schoettgen (1733) and Johann Jacob Wetstein for a new German commentary on the New Testament using rabbinical literature.[4] ~ Wickipedia ~[/INDENT]

So how is it that these two men's (Billerbeck and Strack) work take precedence over Kimchi's work?

That is an excellent question and the answer can be found in the quote, which I repeat for you edification.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Hermann Strack and Paul Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources.[21] Also, Lloyd R. Bailey's "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell"[22] from 1986 holds a similar view.​

Can you see the difference? Kimhi's statement is merely a commentary on a psalm. He does not reference any other evidence. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there "is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim" Also Strack and Billerbeck are supported by Bailey.

I did not say anything about sheol. I said that Gehenna and Hades are two different places, and there is absolutely nothing in your Jewish Encyclopedia quote that says otherwise. In the OT, sheol is simply the grave, and sometimes all the graves of the departed are collectively spoken of as being sheol.

That is correct you did not mention sheol. However sheol is translated "Hades" in the Septuagint, the 250 BC translation of the Tanakh into Greek. And if you were to actually read what I posted you would find that the ancient Jews also referrred to sheol/hades as hell. Here is a relevant quote.
"When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Heb. Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them. . .Isa. xiv. 9-10 Jewish Ency. Gehenna."

There are also passages in the OT in which Sheol appears to be more than simply the grave.

Isa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell [[SIZE="+1"]שׁאול[/SIZE]], and all the nations that forget God.​

Are only the wicked and nations who forget God going to die and be buried in the grave?

Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. [[SIZE="+1"]שׁאול[/SIZE]]​

Can punishing a child keep the child out of the grave?

Isa 14:9 [God speaking] Hell [[SIZE="+1"]שׁאול[/SIZE]] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.​

The dead in Sheol are stirred up, moving and speaking, when King Nebuchadnezzar dies and is buried.

Eze 32:21 [God speaking] The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[SIZE="+1"]שׁאול[/SIZE]] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.​

The dead in sheol speak to Pharaoh.

Eze 32:31 Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

When Pharaoh dies by the sword he will see his dead armies and will be comforted. "saith the Lord God."
 
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Eternal was translated from hebrew and greek words that originally mean "beyond comprehension", time not being an inherent attribute. But people refuse to hear, refuse to look it up, and refuse to believe even if they look it up.

Torment was translated from a word that means "touchstoning" which is a testing process used in refinement, or a bill collector that only releases a person once a debt is paid. But people refuse to hear, refuse to look it up, and refuse to believe if they see it for their self.

Hell was an attempt by KJV translators to poetically render the words for "grave" and "being dead" it has nothing to do with a burning place of torment.
Once again, people refuse.

Because they are reading the bible out of self based fleshly fear and pride.

To wash in the blood of the Lamb is to wash in the cry of salvation for ALL people, even the "worst".
Most people wash in their own blood only, or the blood of their house.

The lake of fire is a refinement process, which corrects a person beyond comprehension, and the only true sin that will be left for correction is the one of calling God wicked.
All other sin is/will be forgiven.

It's all through the bible, but a person must love God, love others, turn away from sinful intent, and read it with the knowledge that He does not torture anyone.

For that matter, only those who follow Jesus' example need even bother with the bible. Anyone else who believes simply needs to manifest brotherly love and cry to God for the salvation of mankind.

Satan is the bad half of each of us, and we are unable to cast Him out by our self.

The two men in one bed are the same man.
The two women in the field are the same woman.
The rich man and Lazarus are the same man.

Ezekiel 20:44

------------

The key of David is being turned!
Jesus is the master of music piracy.
"Pay attention, I come like a thief!"

Steve Miller Band - Serenade - YouTube
 
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Der Alte

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Eternal was translated from hebrew and greek words that originally mean "beyond comprehension", time not being an inherent attribute. But people refuse to hear, refuse to look it up, and refuse to believe even if they look it up.

You are making false accusations! Do you think you are the only person who has ever studied? I happen to have studied graduate level Hebrew and Greek, and this is false! Please see my previous post citing 9 Greek language sources for the definition of Aion the Greek word translated "eternal" at this link. Greek sources-[size=+1]αιον[/size]/Aion

Torment was translated from a word that means "touchstoning" which is a testing process used in refinement, or a bill collector that only releases a person once a debt is paid. But people refuse to hear, refuse to look it up, and refuse to believe if they see it for their self.

More false accusations! You are mistaken. The word translated torment, e.g. in Luke 16:23, did have the original meaning "touchstone" but context not the original meaning determines the definition. Here is the definition from Thayer's lexicon. There is no gold or silver in Lk 16:23, so touchstone is not correct. There is nothing in the definition about a bill collector.

[SIZE="+1"]βάσανος[/SIZE] basanos
Thayer Definition:
1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth
3) torture, torment, acute pains
3a) of the pains of a disease
3b) of those in hell after death
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom)
Citing in TDNT: 1:561, 96​

Hell was an attempt by KJV translators to poetically render the words for "grave" and "being dead" it has nothing to do with a burning place of torment.
Once again, people refuse.

More insulting false accusations. Long before Jesus time the ancient Jews believed in a place of unending torment for the wicked. They called it both Gehinnom and Sheol. See my previous post for documentation, at this link JE-Jews and Hell

Because they are reading the bible out of self based fleshly fear and pride.

It appears that all you are capable of is insults and false accusations.

To wash in the blood of the Lamb is to wash in the cry of salvation for ALL people, even the "worst".
Most people wash in their own blood only, or the blood of their house.

A false interpretation not supported by any scripture.

The lake of fire is a refinement process, which corrects a person beyond comprehension, and the only true sin that will be left for correction is the one of calling God wicked.
All other sin is/will be forgiven.

False!

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It's all through the bible, but a person must love God, love others, turn away from sinful intent, and read it with the knowledge that He does not torture anyone.

False!

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

For that matter, only those who follow Jesus' example need even bother with the bible. Anyone else who believes simply needs to manifest brotherly love and cry to God for the salvation of mankind.

Sounds like Satantic teaching to me.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.​

Satan is the bad half of each of us, and we are unable to cast Him out by our self.

The two men in one bed are the same man.
The two women in the field are the same woman.
The rich man and Lazarus are the same man.

Ezekiel 20:44

Nonsense! There is no scriptural evidence for this stuff.

The key of David is being turned!
Jesus is the master of music piracy.
"Pay attention, I come like a thief!"

More Satanic nonsense.
 
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he-man

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You do not seem to know what an "answer" is.
Here is how it works. If I post an answer, you address the content and not by repeatedly avoiding the questions!

Well Do you agree with Sir Isaac Newton or not? He also rejected immortality of the soul.
Do you agree with Servetus, Martin Luther, or Tyndale or not?

Newton also rejected the immortality of the soul — another litmus test of orthodoxy — which he similarly found to be unbiblical. Instead of natural immortality, eternal life for Newton was obtained through bodily resurrection.

On this point we see another example of Newton rejecting a Hellenised Christian doctrine in favour of a thoroughly Hebraic idea (for the doctrine of natural immortality owes much to the post-biblical superaddition of the conception of the Platonic soul to biblical language).To support his “mortalist” conceptions of the human, Newton turned to passages such as Psalm 6:5, Psalm 115:17 and Ecclesiastes 9:5,10, all of which speak about death as unconscious oblivion. http://www.galilean-library.org/

final annihilation constitutes the "second death."
Jewishvirtuallibrary.org
Dr. Clavering's Oxford edition See also Louis Finkelstein, "The Jewish Doctrine of Human Immortality," Harvard Divinity School Bulletin (vol. XLII, no. 7), March 30, 1945, pp. 31-34

In a way, the evangelical annihilationists represent more of a threat to the orthodox doctrine than the cultists and liberals. In the past, defenders of the traditional view could more readily attribute the annihilationist position to a cultic mind-set or to a general denigration of biblical authority.

While it is true that the doctrine of endless punishment for the wicked is the position traditionally held by the church throughout the centuries, this in itself does not make it correct. Of course, the fact that the church historically has interpreted the Scriptures to teach the doctrine of endless punishment ought to make us think long and hard before setting the doctrine aside. But when all is said and done, it is the teaching of Scripture that is determinative.Copyright 1994 by the Christian Research Institute; John H. Gerstner, Repent or Perish (Ligonier, PA: Soli Deo Gloria, 1990), 29-65.

David A. Dean says that immortality is "conditional" in the sense that "conditions must be met before the sinner can receive everlasting personal existence."
Dean, Resurrection: His and Ours, 114-15.
Pinnock, "Destruction of the Finally Impenitent," 254-55.
Pinnock, "Fire, Then Nothing," 40.

MAIMONIDES TEACHES COMPLETE "EXCISION" OF WICKED.
Maimonides taught that immortality is for the righteous only, with ultimate destruction for the wicked. He believed that the material world is to be destroyed, with the wicked involved in that utter destruction and ending in final deprivation of being.
Those unworthy of life would not live forever, but would be "cut off" and "perish," and the soul would ultimately be extinguished.

The worst of all punishments, Maimonides held, is Kareth, which means "excision," or complete destruction. It is a death from which there is no return, a ruin which admits of no reparation.. Evil men are to be destroyed body, soul, and spirit.

Farrar believes that Maimonides derived his view from the famous passage in the Talmud (Rosh Hashanah 17), which states "that after twelve months of expiation, the bodies of the wicked cease to exist, their soul is burned, and a wind scatters these cinders under the feet of the just." F. W. Farrar, Eternal Hope, p. 212

Here are Maimonides' exact words on the fate of the wicked:
"The punishment which awaits the wicked man is that he will have no part in eternal life but will die, and be utterly destroyed! He will not live for ever, but for his sins will be cut off, and perish like a brute.

It is a death from which there is no return." "The reward of the righteous will consist in this, that they will be at bliss and exist in everlasting beatitude; while the retribution of the wicked will be to be deprived of that future life and to be cut off."
"Guide to the Perplexed"

NACHMANIDES or Moses BEN NAHMAN (1195-1270), of Spain, practicing physician, as well as rabbi, ALSO TAUGHT EXCISION OF SOUL.
Some of the most learned medieval Jewish teachers staunchly defended Maimonides, holding with him that the most dreadful of all punishments, assigned to the blackest criminals and the damned, is final extinction and deprivation of being.
To this DAVID KIMCHI (1160-1232), of France, also agreed.
Shaar ha-Gemul

ABRAVANEL'S SECOND DEATH Is ANNIHILATION.
The next outspoken defender of Maimonides was DON ISAAC BEN JUDAH ABRAVANEL, or Abarbanel (1437-1508), illustrious Jewish statesman-theologian of Spain, master of the learning of his time, and a financial genius.

Abravanel likewise held that the soul would be punished in Gehenna, but only for a time, proportionate to the extent of its faults, and that final annihilation constitutes the "second death."
Jewishvirtuallibrary.org
Dr. Clavering's Oxford edition), quoted in Edward White, Life in Christ, p. 222. See also Louis Finkelstein, "The Jewish Doctrine of Human Immortality," Harvard Divinity School Bulletin (vol. XLII, no. 7), March 30, 1945, pp. 31-34
(L. E. Froom, Prophetic Faith of OUR Fathers, vol. 2, pp. 215-217.)
Quoted in Hudson, op. dt.t p. 341; see also Edward White, op. cit., p. 223; Edward Pocock, Porta Mosii, vol. 1, chap. 6.
 
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he-man

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Originally Posted by Der Alter
You do not seem to know what an "answer" is.

Here is how it works. If I post an answer, you address the content and not by repeatedly avoiding the questions!

In BAG Grinrich critizes Bauers' Translation.

Page xviii σατάν and σατανάς, σάτον Satan is a measure and Page xxiv F. Wilbur Grinrich critizes Bauers' Translation also see Bible Studies by Adolf Deissmann, Language of the Geek Bible

The Semitic coloring is especially plain where Hebrew and Aramaic words or expressions, Hellenized οr not, appear αs α foreign element: άλληλoύϊα, άμήν, βάτος = bath (Hebrew measure), γέεννα, κόρος, μάννα, πάσχα, Σαβαώθ. σάββατον, σατάν and σατανάς, σάτον

At times the information in the fourth edition (of Bauer's Wόrterbuch) seems in need of correction οr supplementation.

On άρπάζω (2b, end) τι Mt 11:12. The meaning plunder, pillage something thoroughly' is also possible: Libαnius, Or. 1 p. 147, 4F. κώμας άρτrά3ειν; Pοlyaenus 8, 11 τίjς πόλεως άρπαγή.

On ίκανός (1c) Mk 15:15 τό ίκανόν ποιεϊν τινι better : ` dο someone a favor' Ding. L. 4, 50.

On καρτερέω Hb 11:27. The translation `endure, hold out' is hardly correct. This is apart from the question whether this quality is particularly characteristic οf Moses. The participle with καρτερεiv does not express an accompanying circumstance, but the respect in which someone is `enduring' οr constant.' Dind. Sic. 14, 65, 4 μέχρι τίνος καρτερήσομεν τavπα πάσχοντες; how long will we continue tο endure this?' Arriαn, Anαb. 7, 8, 3 ούκοον σιγή: έχοντες έκaρτέρησαν=`they therefore continued in silence.' Ps.-Dicaearchus, Βίος ` λλάδος [ed. MFuhr (1841), p. 141, 1. 11= CMiiller, Gengr. Gr. min. I (1855) p. 99 I] άκούων καρτ. =`keep οn listening.' Sο in Hb 11:27, giving the reason for his fearlessness: for he kept his eyes constantly upon Him who is unseen.
'
On ρύομαι 2 Cor 1:10 α. 0. έκ τοΰ θανάτον does not mean 'preserve from death' in general, but 'rescue from (an actual) situation in which death was threatened' : Aristοxenus [300 BC] fgm. 113 [ed. FWehrli (1945)] ρύεσθaι καί έρύεσθaι διαφοράv έχει πρός αλληλα.—τό μέν γάρ ρύεοθαι έκ θανάτον έλκειν, τό δέ έρύεσθaι φνλάττειν.

On λυπέω (1) abs.: in 2 Cor 2:5 it is more than 'vex' Or 'cause grief.' Ρolyaenus 8, 47 uses it οf the severe humiliation felt by a king whose subjects have deposed him.

On πώλος I have presented material which I hope is significant and more tο the point in a study that appeared in the Journal of Biblical Literature, LXXII (1953), 220-9.

In the case of certain entries, new and better examples have turned up.
On άδελφός (1). There is nο longer any doubt in my mind
that άδελφοί can mean ` brothers and sisters' in any number. There are passages that scarcely permit any other interpretation. Ptolemaeus, Apotelesm. 3, 5 has as its subject περί γονέων and 3, 6 περί άδελφών, divided into male and female.

The meaning is sο clear that FERοbbins [1948] rightly translates the second title ' Of Brothers and Sisters.' Likewise Ding. L. 7, 108; 120 αl.

On άπό (II 3a) Jd 14: Ding. L. 3, 1 in the list οf descendants Platο is έκτος άπό Σόλωνος.

On ου ειπας (είπον 1) Mt 26: 25, 64: schnl. On Πla. 112 ε Socrates says in declining οr yielding : ου ταυτα είπες, ούκ έγώ.

άπόλλυμι for its conj. s. 131-D. § 101, ρ. 47; Rob. 317; fut. άπoλέσω Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. άπολώ 1 Cοr 1:19 (Ιs 29:14); 1 αοr. άπώλεσα; 1 pf. άπ-oλώλεκa; fut. mid. άπολοΟμaι Lk 13: 3; 2 αοr. άπωλόμην; the 2 pf. άπόλωλa serves as α ρf. mid., ρtc. άπολωλώς (Ηοm. + ; inscr., pap., LΧΧ, Εn., Philο, Joseph., Test. 12 Pαtr.).
1. act.—a. ruin, destroy.
α. οf pers. (Sir 10: 3) Mk 1: 24; Lk 4: 34. W. ref. tο eternal destruction μή έκείνον άπόλλνε do not bring about his ruin Rο 14: 15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20: 4; Εsth 9: 6 ν.1.; 1 Μαcc 2: 37; Jos.,C. Αρ. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. πaιδίoν Μt 2: 13; Jesus
12: 14; 27: 20; Μk 3:6; 11: 18; Lk 19: 47; B 12: 5; the wicked tenants κaκούς κακώς ά. (s. κακός 1 a) he will put the evildoers τοα miserable death Μt 21: 41. τούς υεωρυoύς Μk 12: 9; Lk 20: 16; τ. Φoνεϊς Μt 22: 7; Τ. μή πιστευσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πaντας Lk 17: 27, 29. W. σώαaι (like Chαritο 2, 8, 1) Js 4: 12; Ηs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Ηerm. Wr. 4, 7) ψνχήν κ. σώμa ά. έν γεέννη Μt 10: 28; ψνχήν B 20: 1; T. ψνχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cf. Sir 20: 22).

Well Do you agree with Sir Isaac Newton or not? He also rejected immortality of the soul.

Do you agree with Servetus, Martin Luther, or Tyndale or not?

Newton also rejected the immortality of the soul — another litmus test of orthodoxy — which he similarly found to be unbiblical. Instead of natural immortality, eternal life for Newton was obtained through bodily resurrection.

On this point we see another example of Newton rejecting a Hellenised Christian doctrine in favour of a thoroughly Hebraic idea (for the doctrine of natural immortality owes much to the post-biblical superaddition of the conception of the Platonic soul to biblical language).To support his “mortalist” conceptions of the human, Newton turned to passages such as Psalm 6:5, Psalm 115:17 and Ecclesiastes 9:5,10, all of which speak about death as unconscious oblivion. http://www.galilean-library.org/

final annihilation constitutes the "second death."
Jewishvirtuallibrary.org
Dr. Clavering's Oxford edition See also Louis Finkelstein, "The Jewish Doctrine of Human Immortality," Harvard Divinity School Bulletin (vol. XLII, no. 7), March 30, 1945, pp. 31-34

In a way, the evangelical annihilationists represent more of a threat to the orthodox doctrine than the cultists and liberals. In the past, defenders of the traditional view could more readily attribute the annihilationist position to a cultic mind-set or to a general denigration of biblical authority.

While it is true that the doctrine of endless punishment for the wicked is the position traditionally held by the church throughout the centuries, this in itself does not make it correct. Of course, the fact that the church historically has interpreted the Scriptures to teach the doctrine of endless punishment ought to make us think long and hard before setting the doctrine aside. But when all is said and done, it is the teaching of Scripture that is determinative.Copyright 1994 by the Christian Research Institute; John H. Gerstner, Repent or Perish (Ligonier, PA: Soli Deo Gloria, 1990), 29-65.

David A. Dean says that immortality is "conditional" in the sense that "conditions must be met before the sinner can receive everlasting personal existence."
Dean, Resurrection: His and Ours, 114-15.
Pinnock, "Destruction of the Finally Impenitent," 254-55.
Pinnock, "Fire, Then Nothing," 40.
 
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In a way, the evangelical annihilationists represent more of a threat to the orthodox doctrine than the cultists and liberals. In the past, defenders of the traditional view could more readily attribute the annihilationist position to a cultic mind-set or to a general denigration of biblical authority.

While it is true that the doctrine of endless punishment for the wicked is the position traditionally held by the church throughout the centuries, this in itself does not make it correct. Of course, the fact that the church historically has interpreted the Scriptures to teach the doctrine of endless punishment ought to make us think long and hard before setting the doctrine aside. But when all is said and done, it is the teaching of Scripture that is determinative.Copyright 1994 by the Christian Research Institute; John H. Gerstner, Repent or Perish (Ligonier, PA: Soli Deo Gloria, 1990), 29-65.

Gerstner is not in your camp. He merely notes that scripture not tradition is the basis of beliefs.

You might read his book.

Review

But in this book Dr. Gerstner refutes the teaching of annihilationism and cogently teaches the true doctrine of eternal punishment. To say that God will annihilate the wicked instead of punish them is to say that the Word of God is lying to us. To say the doctrine of annihilationism is true, you must say the Word of God is false.
 
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Der Alte

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The wages of sin is death. And all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Everyone has sinned, and everyone dies. No exceptions. Also it is appointed unto man to die, after that the judgement. Where does scripture say that the wages of sin is death, then the resurrection, followed by total annihilation?

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]שאול[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
(9)
Hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size]/sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
(11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[size=+1]שאול][/size] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
(22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
(18)
Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
(19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
(20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
(21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size]/sheol with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
(22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::
[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30)
There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
 
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Der Alter said:
I don't recall where I found that quote but I can promise you it was not wiki. Wiki is about as reliable as the graffiti scribblings on an abandoned building. Edited to add: The primary source for this quote is Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992, p. 328.

I have found Wiki to be fairly reliable on most things in that it does list references, which makes it a good starting place for further research. "To each his own", I suppose,[/SIZE][/SIZE]

That is an excellent question and the answer can be found in the quote, which I repeat for you edification.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Hermann Strack and Paul Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources.[21] Also, Lloyd R. Bailey's "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell"[22] from 1986 holds a similar view.
Can you see the difference? Kimhi's statement is merely a commentary on a psalm. He does not reference any other evidence. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there "is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim" Also Strack and Billerbeck are supported by Bailey.


My edification? :D Was that meant as a joke?


How do you know that Kimhi's statement does not reference any other evidence? Have you read this for yourself? or, are you just taking Strack's and Billerbeck's word for it? As for myself I would have to know a lot more about the context of the 'argument' between Strack/ Billlerbeck and Kimchi than what was posted from the theological journal before I could come to any conclusion of its worthiness towards proof or disproof on the subject.

Lev. 18:21 "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD."

2 Ki. 23:10 "And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech."

Jer. 32:35 "And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."


There definitely was fire in Gehenna (the valley of the sons of Hinnom) before the days of Jesus, but they had long ago been extinguished before his time. So, if the rubbish dump 'theory' did not come into existence until the 1200's, why would Jesus have referred to it as being a place of fire? There would have been nothing there but barren wasteland ___ no fires, no worms, no nothing.

That is correct you did not mention sheol. However sheol is translated "Hades" in the Septuagint, the 250 BC translation of the Tanakh into Greek.

Yes, I am aware of that, but it still does not prove that Gehenna and Hades were the same place. Now, if you could show me where Gehenna (the valley of the sons of Hinnom) is translated from the Hebrew into Greek as Hades you might actually have a effective argument.

And if you were to actually read what I posted you would find that the ancient Jews also referrred to sheol/hades as hell. Here is a relevant quote.
"When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Heb. Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them. . .Isa. xiv. 9-10 Jewish Ency. Gehenna."

If you had actually read what I posted you would have seen that the remark that "sometimes all individual graves of the departed are spoken of in the collective sense as being sheol, which is the case of Isa. 14:9-10, as it is plain from reading the preceding verses that this passage of scriptures is metaphorical or allegorical.
Isa.14: 3."And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
4. That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5. The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6.He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7.The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8.Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9.Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10.All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"

In the real world, even in biblical times fir trees and cedars do not actually speak. Is that correct?


There are also passages in the OT in which Sheol appears to be more than simply the grave.
Isa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell [שׁאול], and all the nations that forget God.
Are only the wicked and nations who forget God going to die and be buried in the grave?
Isa. 9:17. "Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is] stretched out still."
I believe the scripture you are referring to is found in Psalms 9:17.
"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."
But anyway, I don't have knowledge as to whether or not its only the wicked and nations that forget God that are turned into hell. But everyone that dies will eventually, in one way or another, return to the earth from which they came. Perhaps if you rephrased your question I might be able to give a little better answer.
Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. [שׁאול]
Can punishing a child keep the child out of the grave?
In some cases, yes it could. For instance, if a child continues to play with matches every chance they get even after they have been corrected verbally, then a good sound spanking might be needed to save the child from dieing from setting their own self on fire.
Isa 14:9 [God speaking] Hell [שׁאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
The dead in Sheol are stirred up, moving and speaking, when King Nebuchadnezzar dies and is buried.
Eze 32:21 [God speaking] The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שׁאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
The dead in sheol speak to Pharaoh.
Eze 32:31 Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
When Pharaoh dies by the sword he will see his dead armies and will be comforted. "saith the Lord God."


If you believe that fir trees and cedars can actually talk, then I suppose you would have no problem in taking these passages literally. As for myself, I believe they are written in a language that is peculiar to prophetical writings only, and are of the metaphorical nature. And in anticipation of what I believe your reply to this will be, I will ask: do you believe that there are any metaphors or any metonymy used in the Old Testament scriptures at all? and if you do, what are some of the scriptures that you believe could be considered as such?
 
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he-man

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According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture in Hell. Just saying.
:amen:
Martin Luther, for example, said that in the sleep of death, as in normal physical sleep, there is complete unconsciousness of the condition of death or of the passage of time. Death is a deep, sound, sweet sleep. And the dead will remain asleep until the time of the Resurrection when once more body and soul will come together (pp. 571, 572).

In BAG Grinrich critizes Bauers' Translation.

Page xviii σατάν and σατανάς, σάτον Satan is a measure and Page xxiv F. Wilbur Grinrich critizes Bauers' Translation also see Bible Studies by Adolf Deissmann, Language of the Geek Bible

The Semitic coloring is especially plain where Hebrew and Aramaic words or expressions, Hellenized οr not, appear αs α foreign element: άλληλoύϊα, άμήν, βάτος = bath (Hebrew measure), γέεννα, κόρος, μάννα, πάσχα, Σαβαώθ. σάββατον, σατάν and σατανάς, σάτον

At times the information in the fourth edition (of Bauer's Wόrterbuch) seems in need of correction οr supplementation.

On άρπάζω (2b, end) τι Mt 11:12. The meaning plunder, pillage something thoroughly' is also possible: Libαnius, Or. 1 p. 147, 4F. κώμας άρτrά3ειν; Pοlyaenus 8, 11 τίjς πόλεως άρπαγή.

On ίκανός (1c) Mk 15:15 τό ίκανόν ποιεϊν τινι better : ` dο someone a favor' Ding. L. 4, 50.

On καρτερέω Hb 11:27. The translation `endure, hold out' is hardly correct. This is apart from the question whether this quality is particularly characteristic οf Moses. The participle with καρτερεiv does not express an accompanying circumstance, but the respect in which someone is `enduring' οr constant.' Dind. Sic. 14, 65, 4 μέχρι τίνος καρτερήσομεν τavπα πάσχοντες; how long will we continue tο endure this?' Arriαn, Anαb. 7, 8, 3 ούκοον σιγή: έχοντες έκaρτέρησαν=`they therefore continued in silence.' Ps.-Dicaearchus, Βίος ` λλάδος [ed. MFuhr (1841), p. 141, 1. 11= CMiiller, Gengr. Gr. min. I (1855) p. 99 I] άκούων καρτ. =`keep οn listening.' Sο in Hb 11:27, giving the reason for his fearlessness: for he kept his eyes constantly upon Him who is unseen.
'
On ρύομαι 2 Cor 1:10 α. 0. έκ τοΰ θανάτον does not mean 'preserve from death' in general, but 'rescue from (an actual) situation in which death was threatened' : Aristοxenus [300 BC] fgm. 113 [ed. FWehrli (1945)] ρύεσθaι καί έρύεσθaι διαφοράv έχει πρός αλληλα.—τό μέν γάρ ρύεοθαι έκ θανάτον έλκειν, τό δέ έρύεσθaι φνλάττειν.

On λυπέω (1) abs.: in 2 Cor 2:5 it is more than 'vex' Or 'cause grief.' Ρolyaenus 8, 47 uses it οf the severe humiliation felt by a king whose subjects have deposed him.

On πώλος I have presented material which I hope is significant and more tο the point in a study that appeared in the Journal of Biblical Literature, LXXII (1953), 220-9.

In the case of certain entries, new and better examples have turned up.
On άδελφός (1). There is nο longer any doubt in my mind that άδελφοί can mean 'brothers and sisters' in any number. There are passages that scarcely permit any other interpretation. Ptolemaeus, Apotelesm. 3, 5 has as its subject περί γονέων and 3, 6 περί άδελφών, divided into male and female.

The meaning is sο clear that FERοbbins [1948] rightly translates the second title 'Of Brothers and Sisters.' Likewise Ding. L. 7, 108; 120 αl.

On άπό (II 3a) Jd 14: Ding. L. 3, 1 in the list οf descendants Platο is έκτος άπό Σόλωνος.

On ου ειπας (είπον 1) Mt 26: 25, 64: schnl. On Pla. 112 E Socrates says in declining οr yielding : ου ταυτα είπες, ούκ έγώ.

άπόλλυμι for its conj. s. 131-D. § 101, ρ. 47; Rob. 317; fut. άπoλέσω Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. άπολώ 1 Cοr 1:19 (Ιs 29:14); 1 aοr. άπώλεσα; 1 pf. άπ-oλώλεκα; fut. mid. άπολουμαι Lk 13: 3; 2 aοr. άπωλόμην; the 2 pf. άπόλωλα serves as a ρf. mid., ρtc. άπολωλώς (Ηοm. + ; inscr., pap., LΧΧ, Εn., Philο, Joseph., Test. 12 Pαtr.).

1. act.—a. ruin, destroy.
α. οf pers. (Sir 10: 3) Mk 1: 24; Lk 4: 34. W. ref. tο eternal destruction μή έκείνον άπόλλνε do not bring about his ruin Rο 14: 15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20: 4; Εsth 9: 6 ν.1.; 1 Μαcc 2: 37; Jos.,C. Αρ. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίoν Μt 2: 13; Jesus

12: 14; 27: 20; Μk 3:6; 11: 18; Lk 19: 47; B 12: 5; the wicked tenants κακούς κακώς ά. (s. κακός 1 a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Μt 21: 41. τούς υεωρυoύς Μk 12: 9; Lk 20: 16; τ. Φoνεϊς Μt 22: 7; Τ. μή πιστευσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; παντας Lk 17: 27, 29. W. σώσaι (like Chαritο 2, 8, 1) Js 4: 12; Ηs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Ηerm. Wr. 4, 7) ψνχήν κ. σώμα ά. έν γεέννη Μt 10: 28; ψνχήν B 20: 1; T. ψνχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cf. Sir 20: 22).

Jesus' words in Mark 9:48 Chandler fails to point out that the passage Jesus quotes "explicitly says that it is corpses whose 'worm will not die'. "The idiom communicates the shame of having one's corpse unburied, and arguably the irresistible and complete consumption of those corpses by maggots."

It's worth noting first that when traditionalists quote this favorite of their proof-texts, they often misquote it. Neither Isaiah 66:24 nor Mark 9:48 say that the worm will "never" die. Very dynamic, thought-for-thought translations like the Common English Bible and the New Living Translation will sometimes say the worm will never die, but this is an act of interpretation, not translation. Most translations, particularly more literal ones, render the text "will not," "shall not" or "does not" die. That's all that the author says as part of the idiom.

Τhe word "not" from Isaiah 66:24, לֹא (lo'), is used in conjunction with the Hebrew word עוֹלָם (`owlam), meaning "everlasting." In other words, "will not ever." Isaiah 66:24 does not contain `owlam.

Τhe Greek word οὐδέποτε (oudepote), a compound word meaning "not at any time." This is lacking in both the LXX rendition of Isaiah 66:24, and in Jesus' citation thereof in Mark 9:48; they simply use the word οὐ (ou) meaning "not." Isaiah, quoted by Jesus, simply says the worm will not die.
Jeremiah 38:24, "Let no man know about these words and you will not die." Obviously Jeremiah did not take Zedekiah to mean he would live forever by remaining silent.

Jeremiah was not put to death by the officials of the king of Babylon before Jerusalem was captured, because he did not reveal the nature of his conversation with Zedekiah until its capture. (He continued to live, but this had nothing to do with Zedekiah's advice.)

Their worm, it is promised, will not die in that context, will not be prevented by death from consuming its host. This is an assurance that the abhorrent process of decay will continue unabated until the corpse is completely consumed; the worm is promised no life beyond that.


Martin Luther, for example, said that in the sleep of death, as in normal physical sleep, there is complete unconsciousness of the condition of death or of the passage of time. Death is a deep, sound, sweet sleep. And the dead will remain asleep until the time of the Resurrection when once more body and soul will come together (pp. 571, 572).
 
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Der Alte

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I have found Wiki to be fairly reliable on most things in that it does list references, which makes it a good starting place for further research. "To each his own", I suppose,

I agree that Wiki might be a good place to start for finding reliable primary sources. But the articles may not be accurate, every article has [edit] links. Anybody can change any article, at any time, without any review. I have done it 2-3 times to prove to scoffers that it can be done.

How do you know that Kimhi's statement does not reference any other evidence? Have you read this for yourself? or, are you just taking Strack's and Billerbeck's word for it? As for myself I would have to know a lot more about the context of the 'argument' between Strack/ Billlerbeck and Kimchi than what was posted from the theological journal before I could come to any conclusion of its worthiness towards proof or disproof on the subject.

So typical. You accept an alleged quote from Kimhi, which you have never read in context, without question but when two different sources, Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch and Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189, state that Kimhi was wrong, you demand to read the articles in context before you will believe them. How biased. Strack and Billerbeck can be read or downloaded at Internet Archives but it may not help you much unless you are fluent in German.

Instead of dismissing evidence out of hand, here is how you prove or disprove the sources. Find archaeological evidence that the valley of Hinnom was used as a garbage dump and a place where bodies were thrown. Until then you have no argument.

Lev. 18:21 "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD."

2 Ki. 23:10 "And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech."

Jer. 32:35 "And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."

There definitely was fire in Gehenna (the valley of the sons of Hinnom) before the days of Jesus, but they had long ago been extinguished before his time. So, if the rubbish dump 'theory' did not come into existence until the 1200's, why would Jesus have referred to it as being a place of fire? There would have been nothing there but barren wasteland ___ no fires, no worms, no nothing.
Good question because at the time of Jesus many Jews believed that the wicked were eternally punished and they called that place Gehenna. I have posted this evidence before, guess you ignored it

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them[/FONT] (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).

Jewish Encyclopedia Online

Yes, I am aware of that, but it still does not prove that Gehenna and Hades were the same place. Now, if you could show me where Gehenna (the valley of the sons of Hinnom) is translated from the Hebrew into Greek as Hades you might actually have a effective argument.

I love this bias and inconsistency. I have an effective argument, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud. You accept a second hand reference by a 13th century Rabbi, which you have never read, but when primary evidence is provided you blow it off. My point is that the ancient Jews believed in a place of eternal torment and they called it both Gehenna and sheol. Object all you want, incontrovertible evidence has already been provided.

If you had actually read what I posted you would have seen that the remark that "sometimes all individual graves of the departed are spoken of in the collective sense as being sheol, which is the case of Isa. 14:9-10, as it is plain from reading the preceding verses that this passage of scriptures is metaphorical or allegorical.
[ * * * ]
In the real world, even in biblical times fir trees and cedars do not actually speak. Is that correct?

This is the translational fallacy of Illegitimate Totality transfer. First you ignore the fact that the ancient Jews believed Isa 14:9 to be factual. Because one instance of figurative language occurs in a passage is not license to dismiss the entire passage as figurative. There is an old maxim, “If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense.”

Isa 14:4-20 describes factual events, King Nebuchadnezzar enslaved and brutalized Israel, vs. 3, 6, God caused his death, he was buried, and worms did cover him. We know that trees do not speak, thus that is figurative. But we have no direct knowledge of what happens after death so we cannot say that vss. 9-10 are figurative. Unless, you have some more esoteric knowledge to the contrary. Also you cannot so easily dismiss Ezekiel 32:21, 31 which you ignored. That passage has no obviously figurative language.

I believe the scripture you are referring to is found in Psalms 9:17.
"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."
But anyway, I don't have knowledge as to whether or not its only the wicked and nations that forget God that are turned into hell. But everyone that dies will eventually, in one way or another, return to the earth from which they came. Perhaps if you rephrased your question I might be able to give a little better answer.

Psa 9:17 does not say, “everyone that dies will eventually, in one way or another” go to sheol. It says “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.” It does not say anything about the righteous.

In some cases, yes it could. For instance, if a child continues to play with matches every chance they get even after they have been corrected verbally, then a good sound spanking might be needed to save the child from dieing from setting their own self on fire.

Nice dodge. How about the multitude of children who are disobedient in ways that do not directly result in death? Will punishing them with a rod save them from sheol?

If you believe that fir trees and cedars can actually talk, then I suppose you would have no problem in taking these passages literally. As for myself, I believe they are written in a language that is peculiar to prophetical writings only, and are of the metaphorical nature. And in anticipation of what I believe your reply to this will be, I will ask: do you believe that there are any metaphors or any metonymy used in the Old Testament scriptures at all? and if you do, what are some of the scriptures that you believe could be considered as such?

I have already answered this above. I have common sense, if the plain sense of scripture makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense. Unlike some I don’t arbitrarily dismiss a verse or passage as figurative just because the plain sense disproves something I believe.
 
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he-man

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When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them[/font] (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).
My point is that the ancient Jews believed in a place of eternal torment and they called it both Gehenna and sheol.
First you ignore the fact that the ancient Jews believed Isa 14:9 to be factual.
It is factual alright, all you have to do is read Isaiah 14:11 (KJV) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
Isa 14:4-20 describes factual events, King Nebuchadnezzar enslaved and brutalized Israel, vs. 3, 6, God caused his death, he was buried, and worms did cover him. We know that trees do not speak, thus that is figurative. But we have no direct knowledge of what happens after death so we cannot say that vss. 9-10 are figurative.
Better check out Isaiah 37:24 (ESV) Isa 24 By your servants you have mocked the Lord, and you have said, With my many chariots I have gone up the heights of the mountains, to the far recesses of Lebanon, to cut down its tallest cedars, its choicest cypresses, to come to its remotest height, its most fruitful forest

Isaiah 14:8 (ESV) The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no woodcutter comes up against us.’

Isaiah 14:10 (KJV) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become sick as we? art thou become [dead] like unto us?

weak—as a shade bereft of blood and life. Rephaim, "the dead," may come from a Hebrew root, meaning similarly "feeble," "powerless." The speech of the departed closes with Isa 14:11.

Verse 11. "Pomp" and music, the accompaniment of Babylon's former feastings (Isa 5:12; Isa 24:8), give place to the corruption and the stillness of the grave (Eze 32:27).
A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
Unless, you have some more esoteric knowledge to the contrary. Also you cannot so easily dismiss Ezekiel 32:21, 31 which you ignored.
Also you cannot so easily dismiss Psalm 9:17-18 (ESV)The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.
18 For the needy shall not always be forgotten, and the hope of the poor shall not perish forever.

which shows that the righteous go to the same place but will be comforted at the resurrection sheʾôl Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
Psa 9:17 does not say, “everyone that dies will eventually, in one way or another” go to sheol. It says “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.” It does not say anything about the righteous.
:doh:Don't you read verse18?

Psalm 9:17-18 (ESV)The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.
18 For the needy shall not always be forgotten, and the hope of the poor shall not perish forever.

Martin Luther, for example, said that in the sleep of death, as in normal physical sleep, there is complete unconsciousness of the condition of death or of the passage of time. Death is a deep, sound, sweet sleep. And the dead will remain asleep until the time of the Resurrection when once more body and soul will come together (pp. 571, 572).
 
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It is factual alright, all you have to do is read Isaiah 14:11 (KJV) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. Better check out Isaiah 37:24 (ESV) Isa 24 By your servants you have mocked the Lord, and you have said, With my many chariots I have gone up the heights of the mountains, to the far recesses of Lebanon, to cut down its tallest cedars, its choicest cypresses, to come to its remotest height, its most fruitful forest.

How does this address what I said? I don't see that this refutes what I said. Isa 37:24 is addressed to the king of Assyria, Isaiah 14 referred to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon.

Isaiah 14:8 (ESV) The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no woodcutter comes up against us.’

Isaiah 14:10 (KJV) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become sick as we? art thou become [dead] like unto us?

weak—as a shade bereft of blood and life. Rephaim, "the dead," may come from a Hebrew root, meaning similarly "feeble," "powerless." The speech of the departed closes with Isa 14:11.

Note, what you quoted, "The speech of the departed closes with Isa 14:11." The departed, the dead, were speaking their speaking ended in vs. 11.

Verse 11. "Pomp" and music, the accompaniment of Babylon's former feastings (Isa 5:12; Isa 24:8), give place to the corruption and the stillness of the grave (Eze 32:27).
A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments. Also you cannot so easily dismiss which shows that the righteous go to the same place but will be comforted at the resurrection sheʾôl Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

Nothing you have posted shows that the righteous go to the same place. There is a reference to Eze 32:27. Let us refer to that chapter.

Eze 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.​

The dead, slain by the sword, speaking to Pharaoh out of sheol

Eze 32:31 Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

Pharaoh, in sheol,. slain by the sword will see his dead armies and be comforted

Don't you read verse18?

Psalm 9:17-18 (ESV)The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.
18 For the needy shall not always be forgotten, and the hope of the poor shall not perish forever.

Yes I read vs. 18 it does not say that the needy and poor are in sheol. But this vs. says nothing about the righteous, who are not poor or needy. Where are they?

Martin Luther, for example, said that in the sleep of death, as in normal physical sleep, there is complete unconsciousness of the condition of death or of the passage of time. Death is a deep, sound, sweet sleep. And the dead will remain asleep until the time of the Resurrection when once more body and soul will come together (pp. 571, 572).

Good for Martin Luther. This does not change Isaiah 14:9 or Ezek 32:21 and it does not change what the ancient Jews believed about hell. Please see my posts from the Jewish Encyclopedia (JE) and the Talmud.

[post=63318413]JE-Jews and Hell[/post]

[post=63598623]Talmud-Jews and Hell[/post]

I'm glad to see that you have learned how to use the quote function.
 
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How does this address what I said? I don't see that this refutes what I said. Isa 37:24 is addressed to the king of Assyria, Isaiah 14 referred to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon.
Note, what you quoted, "The speech of the departed closes with Isa 14:11." The departed, the dead, were speaking their speaking ended in vs. 11.
Yes I read vs. 18 it does not say that the needy and poor are in sheol. But this vs. says nothing about the righteous, who are not poor or needy. Where are they?
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he-man

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How does this address what I said? I don't see that this refutes what I said. Isa 37:24 is addressed to the king of Assyria, Isaiah 14 referred to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon.
:doh:It relates to Assyria's army that lies around its grave. All of its soldiers are dead. They have been killed in battle. They once terrified people in the land of the living.

Isaiah 14:8 (ESV) The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no woodcutter comes up against us.’

Ezekiel 31:16 (ESV) I made the nations quake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to Sheol with those who go down to the pit. And all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the world below.

Ezekiel 31:15 (ESV) “Thus says the Lord GOD: On the day the cedar went down to Sheol I caused mourning; I closed the deep over it, and restrained its rivers, and many waters were stopped. I clothed Lebanon in gloom for it, and all the trees of the field fainted because of it.

to... nether... earth... pit—(Eze 32:18; Ps 82:7). covered the deep—as mourners cover their heads in token of mourning, "I made the deep that watered the cedar" to wrap itself in mourning for him. The waters of the deep are the tributary peoples of Assyria (Rev. 17:15).A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.
Note, what you quoted, "The speech of the departed closes with Isa 14:11." The departed, the dead, were speaking their speaking ended in vs. 11.
Says who? The next verse continues in the same language
Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
NOTE: "stars" express earthly potentates.
[Maurer, Septuagint, Syriac].

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to Sheol, to the sides of the pit.
But you are brought down to Sheol
Eze 32:23 — Their graves are in the deepest parts of the pit. Assyria's army lies around its grave. All of its soldiers are dead. They have been killed in battle. They once terrified people in the land of the living.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Gesenius, however, renders the Hebrew here as "howl." Ezekiel 21:12 (KJV) Cry and howl, son of man: for it shall be upon my people, it shall be upon all the princes of Israel: terrors by reason of the sword shall be upon my people: smite therefore upon thy thigh.
Nothing you have posted shows that the righteous go to the same place. There is a reference to Eze 32:27. Let us refer to that chapter.
By all means Ezekiel 32:27 (ESV) And they do not lie with the mighty, the fallen from among the uncircumcised, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war, whose swords were laid under their heads, and whose iniquities are upon their bones; for the terror of the mighty men was in the land of the living.

28 But as for you,.. with those who are slain by the sword.

they shall not lie with the mighty—that is, (Isa 14:18, 19), to which Ezekiel refers, and which represents them as not lying as mighty kings lie in a grave, but cast out of one, as a carcass trodden under foot.
the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. The dead, slain by the sword, speaking to Pharaoh out of sheol
Where in the world did you get out of the midst of hell ? and in case you do not know it, dead people cannot speak.

It is the mighty GOD that shall speak to him Ezekiel 32:29-32 (ESV)“Edom is there, her kings and all her princes, who for all their might are laid with those who are killed by the sword; they lie with the uncircumcised, with those who go down to the pit.

30 “The princes of the north are there, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who have gone down in shame with the slain, for all the terror that they caused by their might; they lie uncircumcised with those who are slain by the sword, and bear their shame with those who go down to the pit.

31 “When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD.

32 For I spread terror in the land of the living; and he shall be laid to rest among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword, Pharaoh and all his multitude, declares the Lord GOD.”


will be consoled for
Eze 31:16 — I made the nations tremble in fear at the sound of the tree's crash. I brought the tree down to the grave to join those who had gone down to the pit. Then all the trees in Eden, the choicest and best trees of Lebanon, and all the trees that were well-watered were consoled below the earth.
Yes I read vs. 18 it does not say that the needy and poor are in sheol. But this vs. says nothing about the righteous, who are not poor or needy. Where are they?
<edit>

Psalm 9:17-18 (KJV) The wicked shall be turned into Sheol, and all the nations that forget God.

18 For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever.

Pr 23:18 &#8212; There is indeed a future, and your hope will never be cut off.
 
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