Who are the "dead" ...?

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WHO are the "dead" .... to whom Jesus preached ?

The "dead" as defined by the Word

1. Those men who do not have Jesus' flesh and blood within them are "dead"!

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. 23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. (Who is this group? The Word is a two-edge sWord sent to two kingdoms)!

2. The "dead" spirts of men are not on earth as some suppose!

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Malachi 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The INVISIBLE Kingdom of the dead

Devils do not have Jesus' flesh and blood in them and they are the real "congregation of the dead". Every time Jesus preached devils got their message also. Jesus conversed with them all the time because they had climbed out of the "bottomless pit" into and on the bodies of human beings. Here is a typical joust Jesus had with devils possessing men.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Devils use the mouths of men to speak to other men and because they are invisible men are not aware of the human predicament. But Peter found out when Jesus said, "Get thee behind me Satan", to him. I agree that Jesus preached salvation to "the spirits in prison" .... but it was every time he opened his mouth to preach when he was alive on earth. This life we live in from day to day IS HELL!

Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Psalm 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.



Wisdom of Solomon 2:22 they did not understand God's hidden plan; they never expected that holiness of life would have its recompense; they thought that innocence 23 had no reward. But God created man for immortality, and made him 24 the image of his own eternal self; it was the devil's spite that brought death into the world, and the experience of it is reserved for those who take his side.

3:1 But the souls of the just are in God's hand, and torment shall not touch 2 them. In the eyes of foolish men they seemed to be dead; their departure 3 was reckoned as defeat, and their going from us as disaster. But they are at 4 peace, for though in the sight of men they may be punished, they have a 5 sure hope of immortality; and after a little chastisement they will receive great blessings, because God has tested them and found them worthy to 6 be his.

John,

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LightBearer

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 In considering Jesus’ words at Matthew 8:22 , we note that when Jesus spoke, some of “the dead” were hearing his voice. Peter used similar language when he said: “In fact, for this purpose the good news was declared also to the dead, that they might be judged as to the flesh from the standpoint of men but might live as to the spirit from the standpoint of God.” (1Pe 4:6) This is so because those hearing Christ were ‘dead in trespasses and sins’ before hearing but would begin to ‘live’ spiritually because of faith in the good news. Eph 2:1; compare Mt 8:22; 1Ti 5:6. Jesus spoke of those who ‘have everlasting life’ because they hear his words with faith and obedience and then believe on the Father who sent him. He said about each one of such: "He does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life. Most truly I say to you, The hour is coming, and it is now,when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live." Joh 5:24, 25.

Those who have ‘passed over from death to life now’ would not be those who had literally died and were in actual graves. At the time when Jesus spoke, all mankind were under the condemnation of death before God the Judge of all. So the ones Jesus referred to were evidently persons on earth who had been dead in a spiritual sense. Jesus must have referred to such spiritually dead ones when he said to the Jewish son who wanted to go home first to bury his father: "Keep following me, and let the dead bury their dead." Mt 8:21, 22.

Those who become Christians with true belief were once among the spiritually dead people of the world. The apostle Paul reminded the congregation of this fact, saying: "It is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world . . . But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness you have been saved—and he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus." Eph 2:1, 2, 4-6.

And so, because of their no longer walking in trespasses and sins against God, and because of their faith in Christ, Jehovah lifted his condemnation from them. He raised them up out of spiritual death and gave them hope of everlasting life. (1Pe 4:3-6) The apostle John describes this transfer from deadness in trespasses and sins to spiritual life in these words: "Do not marvel, brothers, that the world hates you. We know we have passed over from death to life, because we love the brothers." 1Jo 3:13, 14.
 
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Originally posted by Havoc
Anything else is just religious propaganda.

All propaganda is inherently relgious, because it is done out of relgious motives - that is, with the aim of getting others to believe in one's own personal system. Still, it seems to me mankind can be radically divided down the middle between those who believe that sexual immorality, of any description, including divorce, can be OK sometimes, some of the time, and those who think it is never OK.

I think it is quite logical for the latter to regard the former as "dead", because the former are clearly quite incapable of ever achieving the understanding of the latter. They are, as though dead.

yours,

undead
 
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Havoc

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Originally posted by undead
All propaganda is inherently relgious, because it is done out of relgious motives - that is, with the aim of getting others to believe in one's own personal system. Still, it seems to me mankind can be radically divided down the middle between those who believe that sexual immorality, of any description, including divorce, can be OK sometimes, some of the time, and those who think it is never OK.

I think it is quite logical for the latter to regard the former as "dead", because the former are clearly quite incapable of ever achieving the understanding of the latter. They are, as though dead.

yours,

undead

You are making the common mistake of equating disagreement with ignorance. The "former" are quite capable of achieving the understanding, they just disagree. I find it interesting that you, like many other Christians (I'm assuming by your tone that you are one) use your obsession with sexuality as the dividing line. As has been noted by many learned people the Christian preoccupation with other peoples sexual "immorality" is really a kind of "Christian inappropriate content".
 
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Originally posted by Havoc
You are making the common mistake of equating disagreement with ignorance. The "former" are quite capable of achieving the understanding, they just disagree. I find it interesting that you, like many other Christians (I'm assuming by your tone that you are one) use your obsession with sexuality as the dividing line. As has been noted by many learned people the Christian preoccupation with other peoples sexual "immorality" is really a kind of "Christian inappropriate content".

I cannot agree with you. The reason they disagree is because they do not understand. They think they understand, but do not. They cannot hear what is being said. This is what Christ himself alluded to:

Matt 13;14-15

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them


You are wrong to think that Christians are obsessed with the immorality of Gentiles. Christians know well where Gentiles are going when they die. Christians have a right to object when Gentiles presume a right and a licence to impose their wickedness on the whole of society. Christians have as much right as anyone else to define the sort of society they wish to live in.

Your use of the word "inappropriate contentography" is out of context.

 
 
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Havoc

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First of all we don't know if Christ said any of the things attributed to him.

Second of all you only believe we do not understand. You have no way of knowing that. I and other nonChristians here have demonstrated a significant understanding of scripture. One does not have to agree to understand.

Thirdly, as I said those were not my words but the words of some very wise men who have studied the phenomena of the Christian preoccupation with the sexual immorality of others. Christian web sites that give graphic descriptions of the supposed sexual sins of others are among the most popular with Christians. Clickthroughs to those sites from Christian Web Directories vastly outnumber the more mundane sites. This kind of obsession allows Christians to tittillate themselves with lurid details while pretending to be just educating themselves to further "glorify" God. They gasp in shock as they go back again, and again, and again. This is why those researchers coined the phrase "Christian inappropriate content".
 
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