What do you think of this?

KayScarpettaFan

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Dear brothers and sisters,

recently I read the following article and it made me think a lot. I would like to hear your opinion about that. Thank you in advance.

What Non-Christians Want Christians To Hear

What Non-Christians Want Christians To Hear

July 29, 2013 By John Shore 332 Comments and 0 Reactions


By way of researching my book I’m OK – You’re Not: The Message We’re Sending Nonbelievers and Why We Should Stop, I posted a notice on Craigslist sites all over the country asking non-Christians to send me any short, personal statement they would like Christians to read.
“Specifically,” I wrote, “I’d like to hear how you feel about being on the receiving end of the efforts of Christian evangelicals to convert you. I want to be very clear that this is not a Christian-bashing book; it’s coming from a place that only means well for everyone. Thanks.”
Within three days I had in my inbox over 300 emails from non-Christians across the country. Reading them was one of the more depressing experiences of my life. I had expected their cumulative sentiment to be one of mostly anger. But if you boiled down to a single feeling what was most often expressed in the nonbelievers’ statements, it would be Why do Christians hate us so much?
Below is a pretty random sample of the statements non-Christians sent me (each of which I used in the book). If you’re a Christian, they make for a mighty saddening read. Or they certainly should, anyway.
“The main thing that baffles and angers me about Christians is how they can understand so little about human nature that when, in their fervor to convert another person, they tell that person (as they inevitably do, in one way or another), ‘You’re bad, and wrong, and evil,’ they actually expect that person to agree with them. It pretty much guarantees that virtually the only people Christians can ever realistically hope to convert are those with tragically low self-esteem.”– E.S., Denver
“I feel that Christians have got it all wrong; it seems to me that they’ve created the very thing Jesus was against: Separatism.”– T. O., Denver
“I am often distressed at the way some Christians take as a given that Christians and Christianity define goodness. Many of we non-Christians make a practice of doing good; we, too, have a well-developed ethical system, and are devoted to making the world a better place. Christians hardly have a monopoly on what’s right, or good, or just.”– C.R., Seattle
“Christians seem to have lost their focus on Jesus’ core message: ‘Love the Lord your god with all your heart and with all your soul, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.’”– R.M., Tacoma
“I have no problem whatsoever with God or Jesus – only Christians. It’s been my experience that most Christians are belligerent, disdainful and pushy.” — D.B., Atlanta
“Whenever I’m approached by an evangelist – by a Christian missionary – I know I’m up against someone so obsessed and narrowly focused that it will do me absolutely no good to try and explain or share my own value system. I never want to be rude to them, of course, but never have any idea how to respond to their attempts to convert me; in short order, I inevitably find myself simply feeling embarrassed–first for them, and then for us both. I’m always grateful when such encounters conclude.”– K.C., Fresno
“I don’t know whether or not most of the Christians I come across think they’re acting and being like Jesus was – but if they do, they need to go back to their Bibles, and take a closer look at Jesus.” — L.B., Phoenix
“I grew up Jewish in a Southern Baptist town, where I was constantly being told that I killed Christ, ate Christian babies, and was going to hell. So I learned early that many Christians have – or sure seem to have – no love in their hearts at all. It also seems so odd to me that Christians think that if I don’t accept their message my ears and heart are closed, because it seems to me like they have excessively closed ears and hearts to anyone else’s spiritual message and experience. They seem to have no sense of the many ways in which God reaches out to everyone. As far as I’ve ever known, Christians are narrow in their sense of God, fairly fascistic in their thinking, and extremely egotistical in thinking God only approves of them.”– B.P., Houston
“I wish Christians would resist their aggressive impulses to morph others into Christians. Didn’t Jesus preach that we should all love one another?”– M.G., Shoreline, WA
“I’m frequently approached by Christians of many denominations who ask whether I’ve accepted Christ as my savior. When I have the patience, I politely tell them that I’m Jewish. This only makes them more aggressive; they then treat me like some poor lost waif in need of their particular brand of salvation. They almost act like salespeople working on commission: If they can save my soul, then they’re one rung closer to heaven. It’s demeaning. I always remain polite, but encounters like these only show disrespect and sometimes outright intolerance for my beliefs and my culture. In Judaism, we do not seek to convert people. That is because we accept that there are many paths to God, and believe that no one religion can lay sole claim to the truth or to God’s favor. Each person is free to find his or her own way. To Christians I would say: Practice your religion as you wish. There is no need to try and influence others. If your religion is a true one, people will come to it on their own.”– M.S., Honolulu
“When did it become that being a Christian meant being an intolerant, hateful bigot? I grew up learning the positive message of Christ: Do well and treat others with respect, and your reward will be in heaven. Somehow, for a seemingly large group of Christians, that notion has gone lost: It has turned into the thunders and lights of the wrath of God, and into condemning everyone who disagrees with them to burning in the flames of hell. Somehow, present-day Christians forgot about turning the other cheek, abandoned the notion of treating others like they would like to be treated themselves; they’ve become bent on preaching, judging, and selfishly attempting to save the souls of others by condemning them. What happen to love? To tolerance? To respect?” — S.P., Nashville
“There are about a million things I’d like to say to Christians, but here’s the first few that come to mind: Please respect my right to be the person I’ve chosen to become. Worship, pray and praise your God all you want–but please leave me, and my laws, and my city, and my school alone. Stop trying to make me, or my children, worship your god. Why do we all have to be Christians? Respect my beliefs; I guarantee they’re every bit as strong as yours. Mostly, please respect my free will. Let me choose if I want to marry someone of my own sex. Let me choose if I want to have an abortion or not. Let me choose to go to hell if that’s where you believe I’m going. I can honestly say that I’d rather go to hell than live the hypocritical life I see so many Christians living.”– D.B., Seattle
“I had a friend who was, as they say, reborn. During my breaks from college she invited me to her church, and I did go a couple of times. In a matter of a month, at least ten people at her church told me that I was going to hell. The ironic thing is that I do believe in God; I’ve just never found a church where I felt at ease. However, in their eyes, I was nothing but a sinner who needed to be saved. I stopped going to that church (which in the past four years has grown from a small to a mega-church), but in time, through my friend, have seen some of these people again. None of them ever fails to treat me exactly as they did four years ago. All I can say is this: Constantly telling someone they’re going to hell is not a good way to convert them.”– A.S., Chicago
“I am a former ‘born again’ Christian. It’s been my personal experience that Christians treat the poor poorly–much like the Pharisees did in the parable of the old woman with the two coins. I found the church to be political to a fault, and its individual members all too happy to judge and look down on others. As a Christian, my own fervor to witness was beyond healthy. My friends would come to me to vent and express emotions, and all I would do is preach to them. I was of no real comfort to them. I never tried to see anything from their perspective.”– J.S.W, Philadelphia
“Once Christians know I’m gay, the conversion talk usually stops. Instead, I become this sympathetic character who apparently isn’t worthy of the gift of Christ. From my childhood in a Baptist church, I recall the ‘loathe the sin, love the sinner’ talk, but as an adult I can’t say I’ve often found Christians practicing that attitude. Deep down, I’m always relieved to avoid disturbing “conversion” conversations with Christians; discussing one’s most intimate thoughts and personal beliefs isn’t something I enjoy doing with random strangers. But at the same time, I feel as though Christians make a value judgment about my soul on the spot, simply because I am gay. I don’t pretend to know the worth of a soul, nor the coming gifts to those who convert the masses, but I would guess converting the sinful homosexuals would merit a few brownie points. But I get the feeling that most Christians don’t think we’re worth the hassle.”– R.M., Houston
“Religion always seemed too personal for me to take advice about it from people I don’t know.”– D.P., Denver
 

Max Shade

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Well, since this is the advice section:

Forum rules say if you are gonna cut and paste. . .

It is also good to post invitations to apologetics discussions in an area for apologetics

In a similar vein it is good to post an advice-type question when posting in the seeking advice section.
 
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Inkachu

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Yeah, I don't think this belongs in "Advice" unless you're seeking some kind of advice that you just didn't post in the OP?

But in the spirit of responsiveness to what you posted: I agree that Christians should not be condemning, small-minded, and mean-spirited. But neither do I agree that all non-Christians are innocent "victims" of evangelistic predators, as if all non-Christians are ethical, moral, upright citizens who have to constantly flee ravenous, red-eyed evangelists with giant Bibles ready to thump them on the head, and those non-Christians have never, ever, ever said one negative or snarky thing about Christianity. Some of the quotes in that article are just as hateful towards Christians, as the non-Christians claim to be to treated themselves.
 
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abysmul

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Sadly, the individuals quoted in the article are frequently spot on in their criticism.


:(




Galatians 5

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Walk by the Spirit

5 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10 I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. 12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
 
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Non Christians are usually spot on in their criticism because they have a lot to criticize. And they do because we as Christians aren't living like God wants us to, are hypocrites, judgmental, bigots, and over zealous.

We have a lot to answer for as a Christian body when we get to heaven, and I don't think God is really all that pleased with what His "servants" are doing these days.
 
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abysmul

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Non Christians are usually spot on in their criticism because they have a lot to criticize. And they do because we as Christians aren't living like God wants us to, are hypocrites, judgmental, bigots, and over zealous.

We have a lot to answer for as a Christian body when we get to heaven, and I don't think God is really all that pleased with what His "servants" are doing these days.
:amen::amen::amen::amen::amen::amen:
 
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It would be a lot easier if our lifetime of personal experiences and individual choices were not known as if we were nailed on the cross together with Jesus. That very brief few hours with Jesus where there is no time to make judgmental criticisms about the amount of forgiven sinful actions of our past, especially where there is a no "judge, jury or executioner" judicial system to analyze every detailed action event since we were born.:
Right at that very moment with Jesus on the cross, he supernaturally feels our hearts and knows our hunger for forgiveness - and a positive future and a social lifestyle inside the advanced kingdom of God, where our temporary lives on Earth is like swift blink of an eye compared to the eternal lonely-proof and depression-proof lifestyle with Jesus on a brand new Earth - Rev 21:2
:liturgy:
 
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sunshine456

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A Christian shouldn't necessarily dwell on non-believers thinking. As most of us know the truth and have the understanding that unbelievers are either lost or blind, and that they may repent and come back to the light out of the captive darkness and clean themselves off. That is why we preach and do not hate for that is opposition to LOVE. As the golden rule for Christians and believers we are to love; which is defined in the scriptures vividly.

We do not hate the unbelievers, but by sharing in their company, sharing in their philosophies; other than to trying to convert them to the truth and set the captives free we put our selves at risk and sometime that is better to avoid if we can.

Many bible verses tells us to share the gospel and preach the good word, and so also do many bible verses tells us to....

2 Corinthians 6:14-16

New International Version (NIV)

Warning Against Idolatry

14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[a]? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”[b]



Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever>>>>>>>>>
 
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Dunban

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I feel bad for the people who had to go through that from Christians. I've been on the evangelical side of that fence and I am probably guilty of many of those same attitudes, but not behaviors. I never really felt right about accosting someone I don't know and forcing my beliefs down their throats. It seemed so insincere. I can kind of see why some churches don't evangelize, not that I share their mindset on everything else, that is.
 
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asiyreh

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Of course we could simply agree with the author here and conclude that Christians have fallen short of the Glory of God. But then we knew that anyways.

Christians should preach the gospel, not just with their mouths but should be a light to the World. Showing the good work of Christ, within us.

However I would like to ask the author on what basis the atheist would condemn us?
Most deniers of Christianity in the West take the shape of atheists or agnostics. For the atheist it is very hard to construct an argument that anything is truly wrong.

This is called the argument from objective moral values.

For the Christian, our basis for moral values and duties lay in God. He is a standard above the personal beliefs of all the people that exist in society, so that, if for example all the people in the world say killing disabled people is ok, then we can still come along and say no actually that’s evil.

You see the Christian has a standard that exists outside of themselves.

An opinion exists with the subject, it exists inside you, but we believe we have an object from which we discover moral duties. We do not simply decide what moral values and duties exist. This is called objective moral values. I.e. that they exist in the objective moral law giver i.e. God.

In this statement from the OP the various people who write in are making moral judgments and accusations against the "christian," but on what basis do they do this?

Without God, without some moral lawgiver to base their mere opinions upon, they carry little weight. If someone accuses me of being evil or whatever, I want to know where this notion that they have comes from.

Atheists who have taken the time to examine this moral dilemma such as a Dawkins usually simply conclude – There is no good there is no evil, there is nothing but pitiless indifference and you are a machine for propagating DNA.

In which case, all the Christians in this book haven't done anything really wrong. :Smiley face:
 
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Dunban

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Of course we could simply agree with the author here and conclude that Christians have fallen short of the Glory of God. But then we knew that anyways.

Christians should preach the gospel, not just with their mouths but should be a light to the World. Showing the good work of Christ, within us.

However I would like to ask the author on what basis the atheist would condemn us?
Most deniers of Christianity in the West take the shape of atheists or agnostics. For the atheist it is very hard to construct an argument that anything is truly wrong.

This is called the argument from objective moral values.

For the Christian, our basis for moral values and duties lay in God. He is a standard above the personal beliefs of all the people that exist in society, so that, if for example all the people in the world say killing disabled people is ok, then we can still come along and say no actually that’s evil.

You see the Christian has a standard that exists outside of themselves.

An opinion exists with the subject, it exists inside you, but we believe we have an object from which we discover moral duties. We do not simply decide what moral values and duties exist. This is called objective moral values. I.e. that they exist in the objective moral law giver i.e. God.

In this statement from the OP the various people who write in are making moral judgments and accusations against the "christian," but on what basis do they do this?

Without God, without some moral lawgiver to base their mere opinions upon, they carry little weight. If someone accuses me of being evil or whatever, I want to know where this notion that they have comes from.

Atheists who have taken the time to examine this moral dilemma such a Dawkins usually simply conclude – There is no good there is no evil, there is nothing but pitiless indifference and you are a machine for propagating DNA.

In which case, all the Christians in this book haven't done anything really wrong. :Smiley face:

Not to play devil's advocate, but that's mostly untrue. Unless someone is severely mentally ill, everyone knows that certain things are wrong inherently and also based off of what society says. Now, we can do as Lewis did, and argue that objective, inherent morality in all of us is a God-given construct, and I'd say that is most likely true. But we can't sit there and pretend we are superior moral beings (when we're not) just because we belong to a certain faith or religion. That would be supreme arrogance on our part.
 
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Harry3142

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KayScarpettaFan-

I've had people come after me seeking to 'save me', and I've been a Christian for well over 50 years. The fact is that there are some evangelicals who preach that unless people are members of their particular denomination or sect, those people are damned. So their members must accept it as their duty to save everyone who refuses to 'bow the knee' to their particular heirarchy from the path that we are on, which the evangelicals insist will only lead to our destruction. Some of these churches threaten their own members with damnation unless they bring others 'into the fold'; others claim that they will receive 'stars in their crowns'.

To be quite frank, many of these evangelical denominations (and sects) I refuse to recognize as Christian in any way, shape or form. Instead, I have come to recognize their heirarchies as after one thing, and that is absolute power for themselves over everyone. They have simply decided that the best way of attaining this power they lust after is to take verses, and even 1/2 verses, out of context, and then use them as 'evidence' that only they are correct, while everyone else is not only mistaken, but potentially damned. IOW: They're using the cross of Christ as a smokescreen to hide their true agenda.

Here are 2 examples of what I've encountered: I had one sect try to convince me that I must limit my reading of Scripture to only those verses, and 1/2 verses, which that particular sect told me I should read. Otherwise, it might confuse me. I had another try to convince me that unless I accepted all the stories of Genesis as literally true, I wasn't really saved. And in this instance those stories were to include accepting the curse of Ham as being literally true, as well as seeing that curse as applying to all africans living today. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure out what that denomination's real agenda was.
 
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asiyreh

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Not to play devil's advocate, but that's mostly untrue. Unless someone is severely mentally ill, everyone knows that certain things are wrong inherently and also based off of what society says. Now, we can do as Lewis did, and argue that objective, inherent morality in all of us is a God-given construct, and I'd say that is most likely true. But we can't sit there and pretend we are superior moral beings (when we're not) just because we belong to a certain faith or religion. That would be supreme arrogance on our part.

Yeh ok. But your failure here to understand the point and power of this argument is a fairly common mistake. One I made myself before I properly understood it. It is to mix moral epistemology with moral ontology.

Epistemology deals with how we discover something.

Ontology - whether or not the claim in itself is true.

Sure the atheist can know moral values, God put them there. Course they can. But to deny the soap box on which they stand, is to cut the ground from under their own feet.

If they deny there is no objective law giver, then what's the basis for their claims?
 
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Dunban

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Yeh ok. But your failure here to understand the point and power of this argument is a fairly common mistake. One I made myself before I properly understood it. It is to mix moral epistemology with moral ontology.

Epistemology deals with how we discover something.

Ontology - whether or not the claim in itself is true.

Sure the atheist can know moral values, God put them there. Course they can. But to deny the soap box on which they stand, is to cut the ground from under their own feet.

If they deny there is no objective law giver, then what's the basis for their claims?

They'd probably trace it back to evolution or something, which even then, the Big Bang would still not explain the how or why the universe came to exist. I am familiar with Lewis' lawgiver analogy and I'm not trying to dispute it.

I think I see what you are trying to say now and we are in agreement.
 
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manitouscott

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Whilst I agree that some christians are only into evangelism as a way to fulfull works based salvation and to attempt to "strengthen" their own weak faith by condemning others, I also see in most of those comments the very thing that I myself held dearly to and sometimes still hold dearly to as a reason for my unbelief:

An unwillingness to change a lifestyle which Jesus Himself declared to be unfit for the kingdom of God.

This conviction is usually already present in the non-believer's heart. When a christian of any size and shape approaches, the defense goes up and the perceived demonization begins.

Some of their arguments against christian behavior focus on tolerance. This is a tough one for us. We see in the bible that Jesus had no tolerance for willful continued sin like the pharisees hypocrisy and the money changers greed. Yet most of the time, Jesus saw our sin and took pity on us, teaching us and leading us toward the truth and away from our sin, like Matthew, the woman at the well, the rich young man. But in either case, Jesus confronted the sin and did not ignore it based on a spirit of tolerance; he acted.

Given the choice of methods, I believe christians must keep in the foremost part of their minds the sin and debt that Jesus paid for in our OWN lives and the freedom and joy we have as believers because of this.

This means treating each individual as a special unique case and responding to them lovingly as they personally require. Not an easy task, better rely on the Holy Spirit.

I also think that a big mistake is to believe that we can SHAZAM change someone's heart on the spot. Instead we should humble accept the awesome responsibility of planting seed, and let God give the increase. This could mean simply smiling and being kind to someone with a gay pride sticker on their car, or it could mean conversing respectfully with an atheist without becoming belligerant.
 
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KayScarpettaFan

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Well, since this is the advice section:

Forum rules say if you are gonna cut and paste. . .

It is also good to post invitations to apologetics discussions in an area for apologetics

In a similar vein it is good to post an advice-type question when posting in the seeking advice section.

I am really sorry and I do apologize if I broke any rules, I was not aware of them. I was not really sure where to post; as I am not seeking advice but I just wanted to hear your opinions. For sure it is appropriate if the mods decide to move this thread somewhere else and I do apologize again.
 
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KayScarpettaFan

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Yeah, I don't think this belongs in "Advice" unless you're seeking some kind of advice that you just didn't post in the OP?

But in the spirit of responsiveness to what you posted: I agree that Christians should not be condemning, small-minded, and mean-spirited. But neither do I agree that all non-Christians are innocent "victims" of evangelistic predators, as if all non-Christians are ethical, moral, upright citizens who have to constantly flee ravenous, red-eyed evangelists with giant Bibles ready to thump them on the head, and those non-Christians have never, ever, ever said one negative or snarky thing about Christianity. Some of the quotes in that article are just as hateful towards Christians, as the non-Christians claim to be to treated themselves.

Good point.:)
 
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KayScarpettaFan

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We have a lot to answer for as a Christian body when we get to heaven, and I don't think God is really all that pleased with what His "servants" are doing these days.

It is sadly true. Joyce Meyer said : do not give people religious books and leaflets, give them a cup of coffee!
 
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Well, this kinda confirms a conclusion I have come to. Your best witness is the way your live your life. If you are kind and loving and at peace, if you really do obey the Word, w/o trying to condemn others or trying to save them, if you just unobtrusively pray for them instead, and love them - that's the best you can usually do. Yes, we are to be prepared to give an answer, IF there is a Q! So often, and I've been guilty of this, we want to tell all the answers when the person just wants some peace and quiet, lol!

Praying our life, and mine, will be our best witness.
 
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