Questions about the Atonement

pshun2404

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Are you asking me?

Yes I actually was! Sorry I was not clear.

According to the scriptures (from Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Paul) who poured out wrath onto the Son? Now I know He had the power to and also did willfully subject Himself to this treatment (for He could have summoned legions of angels and wiped them all out) but who's wrath is He enduring according to these scriptures?

Or please explain how allowing these children of Belial to have their way with Him (for that brief time) is the Father pouring out His wrath on our behalf. IMO these people will be the object of His wrath not the tool by which He punishes us. God using sinners and sin to punish sinners for sin? Hmmm?

By the way, your reply to JM was really good...you made a great point (IMO "for us" not "instead of us" as in our stead, is a key point)...

In His love

Paul
 
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ForceofTime

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...He knew they would beat, torture, and kill His Son and the Son was glad to offer Himself a sweet smelling offering to the Father and the Father was indeed pleased by this but this does not mean the Father poured out His wrath towards us onto the Son (it means He allowed those who hate Him to have their way and then He shamed them...they did not know the sinless one was also God Himself until the resurrection) but He was in Jesus making a way for whosoever will that would come to be reconciled...

I don't disagree with your statement that the sons of Belial poured their wrath on Christ, but I do disagree with the statement that God the Father did not. God frequently uses man as instruments of His wrath (e.g. Assyrians and Babylonians).

There are examples which point to God the Father pouring out His wrath:

1. "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done."

Who gave Him this cup and was in it? Isaiah 51:17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.

2. "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"

3. Was it the sons of Belial who did this? Luke 23:44-46 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. (45) And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

Amos 8:8-10
(8) Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
(9) And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
(10) And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
 
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JM

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Plenty of responses but most of it is just tit for tat kind of remarks so I'm only going to respond where a valid point has been made.

bling said:
Just because Christ did all the “for” us does not mean Christ did it instead of us. This huge gift is “for” us which does not mean instead of us.

and repeating the same thought:

...that still does not mean instead of us, but it is presented as a gift for us and to us.
Our iniquity (Websters 1828: Injustice; unrighteousness; a deviation from rectitude) or our law breaking was laid upon Christ and He died according to the scriptures because of the sins of His people (1 Cor. 15). God the Father was please to do it. (Isa. 53:10) Our sin was imputed to Christ. If you do away with this doctrine you must do away with the imputed righteousness of Christ.

I asked you to, "Please demonstrate how your premise leads to the conclusion." You responded with 5 questions and went about giving a sumation of what you believe the answer should be. That was just avoiding the question.

bling said:
f Thou hast my discharge procured,
And freely in my room endured
The whole of wrath divine,
Payment God cannot twice demand—
First at my bleeding Surety’s hand,
And then again at mine.

That poem is not found in scripture.

Whenever the Bible is taken seriously, when a biblical exegesis is given and when the atonement has been defined the ideas in that poem are clearly found.

bling said:
Do you believe forgiveness provides salvation for the individual or atonement provides salvation?

We are forgiven based on the life, death and atonement made by Christ alone. You are trying to create a false dilema by separating the doctrine into two separate parts when they are really two sides to the same coin and cannot be separated.

bling said:
Do you see God hampered in some way that prevents God from having the Love or power to forgive without there being “atonement”? Christ provided the sacrifice in the atonement process, but man has a part to play for atonement to take place for the individual.

God is never hampered by anything whatsoever and that's one of the areas we disagree on. God's love is demonstrated in the cross. God's power to forgive based on Christ alone is demonstrated in the cross.


How are you seeing “atonement accomplishing salvation”? Where people “saved” prior to Christ going to the cross?
Already answer those two questions in a previous post.

I asked a very simple question based on the asserting you have made;

How is 'accepting Christ' 'experiencing discipline?' Christ experienced death for sin so how is it you are experiencing 'discipline' by believing? You must demonstrate this idea.

Your answer has nothing to do with discipline as defined by the English language.

bling said:
What did you personally feel...

Discipline refers to training both morally and mentally, self-control, etc. The answer you gave doesn't make any sense considering what you wrote about 'accepting Christ' 'experiencing discipline...'

bling, you also wrote:

I do nothing to: earn, deserve, develop, create or pay back the free unconditional and totally undeserved gifts God showers me with, especially the gift of Godly type Love.
But you must contribute something to your salvation if what you believe is true! Remember what the word discipline means, it means you must do something morally and mentally to achieve a desired goal.

bling said:
God cannot force these gifts on us...

Who said anything about forcing? Not me.

Now, read what you posted:

bling said:
God can save, but God is not going to force a person to be unhappy.

God is not going to force anyone to be unhappy because...and I quote you bling...

bling said:
Heaven is one huge Love feast...

Huh? Heaven is one big love feast and God wouldn't want to force anyone to join in, even when He knows it is so much better than the alternative?

ForceOfTime, excellent post. I tried to get that point across when I wrote about Acts 4 but your post is much clearer.

I originally posted:

Yes, it was God. You and others have rightly noted;
The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, (Act 4:26-27)
But you failed to see it was God's doing.
to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (Act 4:28)
bottomofsandal said:
If God's wrath is not on a man, where did it go ? Who was the recipient of God's wrath ? Who tasted death for man ? Again, either we are under wrath or we are not !

Yes!

Isaiah 53 gives us 9 instances where God the Father's wrath was pour out upon Christ for our sins, He bore them, He carried the wrath of God for us.

Due to a religious apparatus of sacraments and merits I can understand how and why a system of religious belief would deny penal substitution but I fail to see how a person who looks to scripture alone can find any other view of the atonement.

Thanks folks for the give and take. I'm not sure I can add anything else to the discussion and I really dislike repeating answers and protracted discussions that go nowhere. I'm going to pour my wifey a glass of wine and fix myself an Old Fashion cocktail...maybe a pipe after dinner? We'll see.

This is the day Lord hath made, let us rejoice and be glad in it.

jm

 
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bling

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Let's look at the case of Christ Himself...

Before Jesus became sin on our behalf, Satan had no power over Him because sin gives Satan a foothold. Satan could not harm Jesus when in the wilderness, he only could tempt Him. But if Jesus had given in to temptation, then Satan could have destroyed Him.
What scripture tells you this?

Do you really think deity can be tempted beyond Deity’s ability to control a human body?

What did you learn from Jesus being temped?

One thing we might gleam is this: “When deity dwells within a human body unquenched that body does not sin.” Sin no longer has power over a Christian that is not quenching the Spirit, so that should give us great comfort.




In John Jesus says, "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father."
I cannot find this verse easily so could you help me with that?


Satan, who rules this world, has a legitimate claim on people after they have unrepentantly sinned (who continue in sin). It is sin by which we separate ourselves from God, losing His power and protection.
What gives satan a “legitimate claim” on any people? Do you feel God “owes” satan something, for what reason?

Our sins separate us from God and we allow satan to take control (like Peter did at the last Supper), but did we ever have the power to keep from sinning?

Did Adam and Eve prior to sinning lacked the power and protection to keep from sin, since they did sin?

Have you ever thought that sin might have purpose?

Our objective while here on earth is not to: “never ever sin” (all mature adults would fail that objective if it were our objective.) So what is our objective while here on earth (beyond bringing Glory to God since a tree brings glory to God by being a tree)?



Romans 8:3-4 says, "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh (does not say punished as some claim), in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."
The Law is perfect if not weakened by the flesh and it is the flesh that kept the law from doing what it needed to do. What are: “the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us”. The scripture does not say: “fulfilled with Christ”, so how does it happen in us? It is not done physically by us but spiritually?


Now note who the Bible says poured out their wrath on the Son of God….

From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. Matthew 16:21;Mark 8:31-32; Luke 9:21-22


But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands.” … 22 As they were gathering in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is about to be delivered into the hands of men, 23 and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day.” And they were greatly distressed. Matthew 17:12,22-23; Mark 9:30-31


(3) And as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside, and on the way he said to them, 18 “See, we are going up to Jerusalem. And the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death 19 and deliver him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day.” Matthew 20:17; Mark 10:32-34

Notice that in all these passages it is plainly stated that Jesus would be captured, beaten, spit on, flogged, pierced and killed, at the hands of these children of Belial. There is not one passage that says Jesus endured the Father's Wrath on the cross. Even after the Resurrection, the angel greeting the Apostles in the empty tomb says: "Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, 7 that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.” 8 And they remembered his words." Luke 24-6-8
It might be nice to blame satan for what Christ went through, but man seems to be the problem.



What do you say about these passages. I am interested in your opinion. Thanks
You do good to realize scripture does not teach: “Jesus endured the Father's Wrath”.

The lesson learned from Christ going to the cross is eloquently preached by Peter on Pentecost (Acts 2) and Peter says nothing about satan.

You give way to much power to satan with satan having power over deity when Deity takes on sin. You are suggesting Christ could not get away from the crowd (satan), so that is why he did not get down from the cross?

What makes it all so amazing is the fact that Christ and/or God could have stopped this at any time, yet for our sake allowed it to continue.

You can convey the idea that sinful man as disciples of satan were allowed to torture and murder Christ, but that does not mean it was done for the sake of satan’s satisfaction or to give satan something.

Think about how man’s involvement in the torture and murder of Christ benefited those first century nonbelievers on Pentecost, which resulted in 5000 being saved in one day?

How much are you personally responsible for the torture and murder of Christ on the cross and did that benefit you in some way?
 
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Butch5

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Atonement Questions

Dr. James White asked the following questions during a written debate with Dave Hunt:

Is the atonement substitutionary?

Did Jesus take the penalty of sin for every person who has ever lived, is living, and ever will live?

If so, what was God's intention in laying the sin of every person on Christ?

Was it His purpose to make men savable, or to actually atone for their sins?

And if those sins have been borne by Christ and the punishment due them laid upon Him, upon what basis will those same sins be punished in those who reject Him?

Did Jesus, as the faithful High Priest, intercede for those who will never be saved?

And if so, what is the nature of this failed intercession?

And is it not true that Mr. Hunt and those who follow his views limit the atonement's effect and power, while Reformed theologians limit its scoope and intention?


He asks the wrong questions because his view of the atonement is wrong. One could ask Mr. White, if Jesus did not atone for the sin of every person did the devil prevail? Was Satan not totally defeated, but rahter, only defeated in part?
 
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Clare73

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Atonement Questions

Dr. James White asked the following questions during a written debate with Dave Hunt:

Is the atonement substitutionary? Yes, and penal.

Did Jesus take the penalty of sin for every person who has ever lived, is living, and ever will live? No.

If so, what was God's intention in laying the sin of every person on Christ?

Was it His purpose to make men savable, or to actually atone for their sins? To atone.

And if those sins have been borne by Christ and the punishment due them laid upon Him, upon what basis will those same sins be punished in those who reject Him? They haven't been borne by Christ. Jesus saves.

Did Jesus, as the faithful High Priest, intercede for those who will never be saved? No.

And if so, what is the nature of this failed intercession?

And is it not true that Mr. Hunt and those who follow his views limit the atonement's effect and power, while Reformed theologians limit its scoope and intention? Yes. Jesus saves.
 
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Clare73

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Who was standing in for 'us?' Why, it was Jesus Christ who was made sin and took 'our' sins as scripture declares. The Bible teaches that Christ took our sins, not the equivalent of all sin, but our sins. He died for 'us' and not all.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2Co 5:21)

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1Pe 2:24)

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1Jn 4:10)

Yes, nothing here says He paid the "penalty" for our sins only He bore or carried our since...to atone means to cover not be victimized

Where does the idea of a ritual sacrifice to appease the angry gods actually come from?
Ro 3:25-26.

God presented him as an atoning sacrifice to demonstrate his justice by requiring payment of the penalty for the sin of those who believe in him.

In this barbaric penal substitution idea of God, Christ dies to save us from God (who claims elsewhere He loves us) not for Him. Sad!
So sayeth the mind of man.

"For the message of the cross (Ro 3:25-26) is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. . .we preach Christ crucified:
a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks (Gentiles), Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong." (1Co 1:18-27)

God is not impressed with man's objections.
 
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Clare73

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As you know, I reject some aspects of penal substitution. But there is surely an element of substitution. Is 53 shows Jesus as being wounded for our transgressions. I don't accept the narrative of PSub, that God had to punish someone in order to be able to forgive us. But still, the way God chose to take away our sins did involve Jesus taking them on. 1 Pet 2:24.

I consider Rom 6 to be the most detailed treatment of the atonement in the NT, though the Words of Institution are also fairly explicit.
Rom 6 says that Jesus' death deals with our sin, but not quite that it does so by bearing our punishment.
That's Ro 3:25-26, where the punishment due on the sin of the OT was temporarily passed over until it was paid in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus.

Through union with him in faith, he takes our sins, and dies to free us from them. Paul explains that death releases from sin. Hell isn't in view here. Because we are united with Christ, and thus he had our sins, his death releases us from them. And through him we are raised to new life. Because it involves his taking our sins, it is substitutionary, in my view.
Releasing us from sin is only part of the purpose of Jesus' death.

As far as I can see, the atonement doesn't have to do with forgiveness at all. God is perfectly capable of forgiving sin, and has done so in the past (Rom 3:25).
It was definitely about forgiveness in the OT (Lev 4:20, 26, 31, 35, 5:10, 13, 16, 18, 6:7, 19:22; Nu 15:25, 26, 28).

It was definitely about forgiveness in the promise of the new covenant of Jer 31:34.

And it's definitely about forgiveness in the NT.
"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Mt 26:28)

And Paul makes clear in Ro 3:25-26 that all God's forgiveness of sin, past, present and future, is only because of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, and that punishment on the sin of the OT was passed over until Jesus paid the penalty for them.

There is no forgiveness apart from Jesus' atoning sacrifice.
"Without the shedding of blood (death--penalty for sin), there is no forgiveness." (Heb 9:22)

The other moderately explicit explanation of the atonement is the Words of Institution. Jesus speaks of his blood as the blood of the new covenant. This is only explicit because of the OT context. The new covenant is surely the covenant of Jer 31:31, which writes the law in our hearts. That's completely consistent with all of Jesus' preaching, which sees that the way to change people is to change their hearts.

What then is the blood of the covenant? It is the covenant sacrifice.
The "blood of the covenant poured out for forgiveness of sin" is Jesus blood poured out, which is his poured-out life (death).

God's unilateral unconditional New Covenant to forgive sin and remember it no more (Heb 8:12) was possible because of Jesus' atoning sacrifice for that sin (2Co 5:21).

My understanding of the OT sacrificial system is that it is basically a sacrament,
This has no basis in Scripture, starting with the word "sacrament."

where giving a sacrifice is a visible sign of repentance and commitment to change.
The sin sacrifices were penalties for sin, not signs (Lev 5:6, 7, 14, 6:6).

A covenant sacrifice would be a visible sign of the commitment to keep the covenant.
So Jesus' atoning sacrifice is simply a visible sign of his keeping the covenant?

So I believe that Jesus saw his death as an act of vicarious repentance
This has no Biblical basis.

You are confusing the repentant heart which offered the atoning sacrifice with the atoning sacrifice itself.

The sacrifices were penalties for sin which, when offered with a repentant heart, atoned (paid) for the sin, which was then forgiven.

and commitment to the renewed covenant, on behalf of his people.
First of all, the New Covenant is unilateral, not bilateral.
His people do not keep the covenant of their Surety.

Nor was the New Covenant a "renewal" of the Old (Sinaitic) Covenant.
It was "not like the covenant I made with their fathers." (Jer 31:32).
It was a new, never-existing-before covenant.

The Sinaitic covenant with Israel was conditional, based on keeping the law.
The New Covenant is unconditional, pure grace, with those who believe in Jesus Christ.

This is at least implicitly substitutionary. In repenting on behalf of his people, he is taking on the responsibility for their sins.
In taking on the responsibility of their sin,
and in dying for their sin,
you have presented Jesus paying the penalty for their sin.

That's penal substitutionary atonement.

So why the need to present his sacrificial atonement as simply "sign"?

In all the NT discussion, e.g. the OT analogies, it seems to me that Jesus died to save people, not to make them savable. Who did he save? His people. Look at the OT analogy. Did the high priest intercede for the Philistines? Of course not. He interceded for his people. Jesus interceded for his people, who Paul defines as those who have faith.
Agreed.
 
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Clare73

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I prefer to have the reader come to the conclusion without providing “my” answers. I present this in adult Bible class settings and allow the students to draw their own conclusions.
Making it all a matter of human conclusion based on human reasoning to answer human objections,

rather than a Biblical conclusion from the Scripture.
 
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hedrick

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Ro 3:25-26.

God presented him as an atoning sacrifice to demonstrate his justice by requiring payment of the penalty for the sin of those who believe in him.

Unfortunately that's not what it says. It says that Christ was a sacrifice of atonement. The rest is your addition. The passage says twice that God's righteousness is disclosed, not in Christ's death, but in justifying people by faith. (the first half of 22, and 26) Obviously his death is part of the picture Paul is drawing, but he specifically says that righteousness is shown by justification. This section fits better with a definition of righteousness as God's commitment to his covenant, than with righteousness as a commitment to punishing sin.

* What is atonement? Is it appeasement? I don't think so.
* What is God's righteousness? It's his commitment to his covenant, which he shows by saving his people. It is not a demand for payment.

The business about requiring payment is your interpretation. It's not in the text. It's what you think righteousness means. But Paul says that righteousness means acquitting people freely, through faith, as the passage says. Your righteousness is the righteousness of the Law, which demands punishment for sin. But 3:21 says this whole thing is apart from the Law.

Paul's real explanation of this in Rom 6:1-11. But there's nothing there about God requiring punishment. Paul says that by being united with Christ, our sin dies. The key to the passage is death and resurrection, which we experience through Christ. Nothing there about having to satisfy God's need for punishment.
 
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hedrick

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The "blood of the covenant poured out for forgiveness of sin" is Jesus blood poured out, which is his poured-out life (death).

We've been through this all in another thread. As far as I can tell, you deny the existence of covenant sacrifices, even thought Jesus says that's what is death is, and refers directly to the covenant sacrifice for the Mosaic covenant. The words of institution refer to Ex 24:8, describing one of the three major non-existent covenant sacrifices (the others being Noah and Abraham), though referring to this one as establishing the new covenant of Jer 31:31.

God's covenants are established unilaterally. They do, however commit us to something. So they're only partly unilateral. And the major ones were all established with a covenant sacrifice. I don't think a covenant sacrifice can reasonably be considered punishment.

Why do I think Jesus thought of his death as vicarious repentance for his people? I admit that this is a speculation. It's certainly not directly in the text. Feel free to disregard it. However Jesus was certainly worried that disaster was about to hit. See Mat 23:37-24:2. His whole ministry called on the people to repent and change their ways. There 4 accounts of the Word of Institution. They all include the blood of the new covenant. However the version in Matthew also refers to forgiveness. If he saw his death as for forgiveness, then I don't think it's unreasonable to think that he was doing on behalf of his people what they wouldn't do for themselves, which is repent.

Part of the reason for my speculation is my understanding that the OT sacrifices were acts of repentance. I don't think it makes to sense to repeat the treatments in other threads of Lev and Heb (as well as the prophets' references to sacrifice) that justify this. I admit that the specific kind of sacrifice he was making was a covenant sacrifice, and that isn't specifically a sign of repentance. But this specific covenant was a commitment to start living with God's commands in our hearts, so I don't think it's unreasonable to include repentance, i.e. commitment to a new life, as part of this particular covenant sacrifice.

The term "sacrament" means a ceremonial act that is a visible sign of something happening internally. I don't think it's unreasonable to refer to sacrifices that way. As the prophets noted, God doesn't have any inherent desire for the blood of bulls. It's what it signifies that he cares about. Repentance, in my opinion.
 
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hedrick

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Since the understanding of OT sacrifice is mportant here, I thought it would be interesting to check Calvin. This is far from a thorough search, so I could certainly be missing something. But here's what I found:

On Ps 50:8 he says

"He declares, that he attached no value whatsoever to sacrifices in themselves considered. Not that he asserts this rite of the Jews to have been vain and useless, for in that case it never would have been instituted by God; but there is this difference betwixt religious exercises and others, that they can only meet the approbation of God when performed in their true spirit and meaning. On any other supposition they are deservedly rejected. Similar language we will find employed again and again by the prophets, as I have remarked in other places, and particularly in connection with the fortieth psalm. Mere outward ceremonies being therefore possessed of no value, God repudiates the idea that he had ever insisted upon them as the main thing in religion, or designed that they should be viewed in any other light than as helps to spiritual worship. Thus in Jer. 7:22, he denies that he had issued any commandment regarding sacrifices; and the prophet Micah says"

This is interesting because he shows no sign of sacrifices being necessary for forgiveness. He seems to see their value only in what the people meant.

I took a look at his commentary on the Pentateuch. At the beginning of the section on sacrifice he comments:

"God’s intention was very different; for, by the external savour, He desired to arouse His people, so that, being affected by a serious feeling of repentance, and by pure faith, they should seek for the remission of their sins, not in these lambs which they saw slain, but in the victim promised to them."

It does not appear that Calvin actually saw the OT sacrifices as propitiation, but rather as signs helping the people repent and look forward to Christ.

NOTE: While he didn't see the sacrifices as propitiatory in themselves, nor did he think they were necessary, he did think that propitiation was necessary for the people's sin. But that came only with Christ, even for people in the OT. So the death of animals was a symbol of and pointer to Christ's death in propitiation.

Since he didn't see the death of animals as it itself propitiatory, or even mandatory, it may not even make sense to ask whether he saw them as punishment. I didn't see signs in the few passages I looked at that he did, but I only sampled a small part of what he wrote on Lev.
 
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ForceofTime

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We've been through this all in another thread. As far as I can tell, you deny the existence of covenant sacrifices, even thought Jesus says that's what is death is, and refers directly to the covenant sacrifice for the Mosaic covenant. The words of institution refer to Ex 24:8, describing one of the three major non-existent covenant sacrifices (the others being Noah and Abraham), though referring to this one as establishing the new covenant of Jer 31:31.

God's covenants are established unilaterally. They do, however commit us to something. So they're only partly unilateral. And the major ones were all established with a covenant sacrifice. I don't think a covenant sacrifice can reasonably be considered punishment.

Not completely, no. But it certainly is made because of punishment promised in order that preservation may occur.

The Passover lamb was sacrificed because of the promised punishment of the death of the firstborn in all of Egypt, both Egyptians and Israelites. The fact is that the Passover lamb did indeed bear the punishment of that decree by God in place of the firstborn of Israel, allowing them to live.

John 11:49-50 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, (50) Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
 
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pshun2404

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Not completely, no. But it certainly is made because of punishment promised in order that preservation may occur.

The Passover lamb was sacrificed because of the promised punishment of the death of the firstborn in all of Egypt, both Egyptians and Israelites. The fact is that the Passover lamb did indeed bear the punishment of that decree by God in place of the firstborn of Israel, allowing them to live.

John 11:49-50 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, (50) Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not
.

The blood of the lamb was a covering not a victim. All atonement sacrifices including the sin offering were offerings instituted by and acceptable to God because of His great love for those who faithed...

The scriptures tells us this over and over...

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver ( to snatch away, rescue, save) them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. the redemptive deliverance of the substitute is an offering from love...a rescue mission to set us free, just as redemptive deliverance through Moses (though but a type) set the Israelites free

John 3:16 For God so loved the world (not for God was so angry at the world) that He gave His only begotten Son…

Romans 5:8 But God shows his love for us (not His wrath) in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. This Christ’s death was an action of the love of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath (we are children of “orge” – children of anger, and natural disposition, temper, indignation, agitation – this speaks of our character, not God’s anger at us because of a sense of a need to satisfy His justice), just as the others. 4 But God (now we address His attitude toward us), who IS rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us (loved as in past tense – while we were in our sins -notice it says nothing off His vehement hatred or anger at us), 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us (not wrath toward us)in Christ Jesus.

1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us (while we were still in out sin He loved us, and was not filled with wrath toward us).

Yes it is in his love and in his pity he redeemed us. Did we deserve it? No! We were children of orge (translated wrath), indignant, obstinate, of natural disposition focused on the whims of the flesh and the will of our own minds. So though He died on behalf of all mankind not all individuals will be saved, most will reject His gift of grace given to restore, redeem, reconcile (the Lord Jesus who loved us so much He willfully laid down His life).

Yes beloved we have been redeemed because of the riches of His grace by such a steadfast love (God is love) this is what the Bible says (regardless of what some have been taught it means) not because His need for justice which was satisfied by death.

Death never “satisfies” God. God wanted Adam and Eve to avoid this consequence just as your parent who tells you do not run out into the busy traffic does not want you to get hit by a car…His declaration to them was not a decree of punishment for wrong doing He would incur as a penalty, it was a warning from love. Christ was a propitiation (to propitiate – to win or regain favor by doing or offering something pleasing). He was the offering (of Himself). His blood covers our sin and transgression as an acceptable exchange. He redeemed us (ga’al - to redeem, act as kinsman-redeemer, avenge, revenge, ransom, do the part of a kinsman) not was victimized in place of us. God in His forbearance “passed over” our sins (Romans 3:25-26) not satisfied His need to punish us.

In HIs love

Paul
 
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hedrick

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Not completely, no. But it certainly is made because of punishment promised in order that preservation may occur.

The Passover lamb was sacrificed because of the promised punishment of the death of the firstborn in all of Egypt, both Egyptians and Israelites. The fact is that the Passover lamb did indeed bear the punishment of that decree by God in place of the firstborn of Israel, allowing them to live.

John 11:49-50 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, (50) Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

Are you sure? I looked at the account where the passover is instituted, and I don't see anything about punishment. It says to sacrifice and put the blood on the door. But it could just as well be a thanksgiving sacrifice, thanking God for sparing Israel, with the blood simply a sign to the angel that there's an Israelite in the house. I don't see any wording classifying the sacrifice or explaining it. Am I missing something?

As far as I can tell, the first-born of Egypt was killed because of a misdeed of Pharaoh. Even if you attribute it to the whole Egyptian people, I don't see the Israel would be guilty of enslaving Israel or not letting it go.
 
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ForceofTime

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The blood of the lamb was a covering not a victim. All atonement sacrifices including the sin offering were offerings instituted by and acceptable to God because of His great love for those who faithed...

Ok, but the lamb died in order to be a covering. I think we can agree on that? As to the second part, I agree; but you omit the question "why use sacrifice as the medium of that love".

The scriptures tells us this over and over...

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver ( to snatch away, rescue, save) them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. the redemptive deliverance of the substitute is an offering from love...a rescue mission to set us free, just as redemptive deliverance through Moses (though but a type) set the Israelites free
Amen.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world (not for God was so angry at the world) that He gave His only begotten Son…
Amen. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 5:8 But God shows his love for us (not His wrath) in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. This Christ’s death was an action of the love of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Amen. Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath (we are children of “orge” – children of anger, and natural disposition, temper, indignation, agitation – this speaks of our character, not God’s anger at us because of a sense of a need to satisfy His justice), just as the others.
Ok, but you cannot mean that God is either indifferent or pleased with these children of "orge", correct?
4 But God (now we address His attitude toward us), who IS rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us (loved as in past tense – while we were in our sins -notice it says nothing off His vehement hatred or anger at us), 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us (not wrath toward us)in Christ Jesus.
Hallelujah!

1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us (while we were still in out sin He loved us, and was not filled with wrath toward us).
Amen. Although I disagree with your conclusion in bold.

Yes it is in his love and in his pity he redeemed us. Did we deserve it? No! We were children of orge (translated wrath), indignant, obstinate, of natural disposition focused on the whims of the flesh and the will of our own minds. So though He died on behalf of all mankind not all individuals will be saved, most will reject His gift of grace given to restore, redeem, reconcile (the Lord Jesus who loved us so much He willfully laid down His life).
Amen.

Yes beloved we have been redeemed because of the riches of His grace by such a steadfast love (God is love) this is what the Bible says (regardless of what some have been taught it means) not because His need for justice which was satisfied by death.
Whether He needed it or not, He is both Just and the Justifier, regardless.

Death never “satisfies” God. God wanted Adam and Eve to avoid this consequence just as your parent who tells you do not run out into the busy traffic does not want you to get hit by a car…His declaration to them was not a decree of punishment for wrong doing He would incur as a penalty, it was a warning from love.
Yes, He wanted them to avoid eating and so warned them, but they wanted it so this happened instead:

Genesis 3:16-19
(16) Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
(17) And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(18) Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
(19) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


Christ was a propitiation (to propitiate – to win or regain favor by doing or offering something pleasing). He was the offering (of Himself). His blood covers our sin and transgression as an acceptable exchange. He redeemed us (ga’al - to redeem, act as kinsman-redeemer, avenge, revenge, ransom, do the part of a kinsman) not was victimized in place of us. God in His forbearance “passed over” our sins (Romans 3:25-26) not satisfied His need to punish us.
Yes, He is indeed our Kinsman-Redeemer, but He is also so much more.

In HIs love

Paul
May the peace of our Lord Jesus be with you, Paul! :wave:
 
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sdowney717

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Since the understanding of OT sacrifice is mportant here, I thought it would be interesting to check Calvin. This is far from a thorough search, so I could certainly be missing something. But here's what I found:

On Ps 50:8 he says

"He declares, that he attached no value whatsoever to sacrifices in themselves considered. Not that he asserts this rite of the Jews to have been vain and useless, for in that case it never would have been instituted by God; but there is this difference betwixt religious exercises and others, that they can only meet the approbation of God when performed in their true spirit and meaning. On any other supposition they are deservedly rejected. Similar language we will find employed again and again by the prophets, as I have remarked in other places, and particularly in connection with the fortieth psalm. Mere outward ceremonies being therefore possessed of no value, God repudiates the idea that he had ever insisted upon them as the main thing in religion, or designed that they should be viewed in any other light than as helps to spiritual worship. Thus in Jer. 7:22, he denies that he had issued any commandment regarding sacrifices; and the prophet Micah says"

This is interesting because he shows no sign of sacrifices being necessary for forgiveness. He seems to see their value only in what the people meant.

I took a look at his commentary on the Pentateuch. At the beginning of the section on sacrifice he comments:

"God’s intention was very different; for, by the external savour, He desired to arouse His people, so that, being affected by a serious feeling of repentance, and by pure faith, they should seek for the remission of their sins, not in these lambs which they saw slain, but in the victim promised to them."

It does not appear that Calvin actually saw the OT sacrifices as propitiation, but rather as signs helping the people repent and look forward to Christ.

NOTE: While he didn't see the sacrifices as propitiatory in themselves, nor did he think they were necessary, he did think that propitiation was necessary for the people's sin. But that came only with Christ, even for people in the OT. So the death of animals was a symbol of and pointer to Christ's death in propitiation.

Since he didn't see the death of animals as it itself propitiatory, or even mandatory, it may not even make sense to ask whether he saw them as punishment. I didn't see signs in the few passages I looked at that he did, but I only sampled a small part of what he wrote on Lev.

I will add that people are justified with God by faith, not works, of which also are include animal sacrifices, which are according to the LAW of God, and no one is justified by the observance of the LAW.

Faith = believing what God has said. Which scripture says

God told Abraham he would be father of a great nation
Abraham believed what God said.
God declares Abraham justified and right with Himself because when HE spoke Abraham believed what God had said.

That by faith you are saved (grace and truth) precedes the LAW given by Moses.

Gal 2
14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?

15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Those who were justified in God's sight who offered up animal sacrifices were justified by their faith in God. The sacrifice meant to point to Christ, the Lamb, the sacrifice to take away their sins in a better covenant, with Him doing the work entirely and on the cross, He said it was finished.

It was even so from the very beginning, the question of believing what God has said or not. Look at what happened in Eden.
Every man God holds to account for their own sins.
The penalty of Sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus christ our LORD.

He is our LORD for salvation if we are children of the promise, who by faith believe like Abraham and do the works Abraham did. Believing in what God says in His scriptures, living spoken words, and written words.

John 8
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
 
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pshun2404

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SDowney...I loved your post but where did you get "penalty" out of Romans 6:23? The word originally is a military term for a soldiers compensation, and is also used for payment, or an allowance...so I get the idea of a payment which is due, but a penalty carries an implication of punishment that is not in the text (Seriously! Go ahead and exegete the passage for yourself...it just is not there). Not that we are not worthy of being punished for those sins like Adam's which are straight forward disobedience, but penalty is just not found here in the grammar. What do you say? Maybe I am splitting hairs...yes? no?

Paul
 
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Clare73

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God is perfectly capable of forgiving sin, and has done so in the past (Rom 3:25).
But according to Ro 3:25, Christ's death atoned for the sins of the OT on which God's punishment had temporarily passed over until the death of Christ when their penalty was paid.

Nowhere does Scripture present God forgiving sin without the payment of its penalty.
In Ro 3:25-26, Paul makes clear that all God's forgiveness of sin, past, present and future, is only because of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, and that punishment on the sin of the OT was passed over until Jesus paid the penalty for them.

God did not take away their sin until the death of Christ (Heb 10:4).
He covered their sin (Ro 4:7) by the OT sacrifices, which reconciled them to him.

There is no forgiveness apart from Jesus' atoning sacrifice.
"Without the shedding of blood (death--penalty for sin), there is no forgiveness." (Heb 9:22)
Heb refers specifically to the sins of the OT here, as the pattern for all sin.

Herein lies the fundamental error on which your theology is built--an absence of the justice of God.
You do not understand the Biblical presentation of God's justice, and its exercise going all the way back to the rebellion in heaven (Heb 2:2).
The Just Judge does not forgive debt, even a penny, without someone paying it (Mt 5:25-26).

As far as I can see, the atonement doesn't have to do with forgiveness at all.
Jesus said it was the purpose of his death.
"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out (death) for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Mt 26:28)

It was definitely about forgiveness in the OT (Lev 4:20, 26, 31, 35, 5:10, 13, 16, 18, 6:7, 19:22; Nu 15:25, 26, 28).

It was definitely about forgiveness in the promise of the new covenant of Jer 31:34.

And it is definitely about forgiveness in the NT (Mt 26:28).

Salvation is the forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77).

Unfortunately that's not what it says. It says that Christ was a sacrifice of atonement. The rest is your addition. The passage says twice that God's righteousness is disclosed, not in Christ's death, but in justifying people by faith.

Ro 3:25 speaks for itself:
"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement (propititation=appeasement), through faith in his blood,
to declare his justice (dike, also righteousness--God's righteousness is his justice)
for the remission of sins that are past through the forbearance of God."
Forbearance is not forgiveness, it is bearing with.

If you have any doubt about God's punishment being passed over the sins of the past, Heb 10:4 makes it clear:
"Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness."

God bore with the sins of the past until the shedding of Jesus' blood when he forgave them.
So why was Jesus' sacrifice necessary for God to forgive the sins of the past. . .and the present (Ro 3:26)?

Their penalty had to be paid in order for them to be taken away, forgiven (Heb 9:22).
The punishment that brought us peace was upon him." (Isa 53:5)

Obviously his death is part of the picture Paul is drawing, but he specifically says that
righteousness is shown by justification.
But you stopped short of "being justified. . .through the redemption in Christ Jesus whom God set forth as a propitiation" (Ro 3:24-25).

This section fits better with a definition of righteousness as God's commitment to his covenant, than with righteousness as a commitment to punishing sin.
And how did his covenant forgive sin?
By the propitiation of Christ.

* What is atonement? Is it appeasement? I don't think so.
It is propitiation (hilasterion) in the Greek, which is appeasement, satisfaction, reparation.

* What is God's righteousness? It's his commitment to his covenant, which he shows by saving his people. It is not a demand for payment.
All of which omits what made the fulfillment of the New Covenant possible, Jesus' death to pay the penalty for sin.

The business about requiring payment is your interpretation. It's not in the text.
It is the presentation of Scripture.

Isa 53:5 couldn't be clearer: "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him."
Likewise, it is prefigured in the OT sacrifices for sin, which were penalties for sin (Lev 5:6, 7, 14, 6:6).
Jesus was sacrificed as a sin offering (2Co 5:21) according to the law, which were penalties for sin.

Your objection is based in your theology, not in Scripture.

It's what you think righteousness means. But Paul says that righteousness means acquitting people freely, through faith, as the passage says. Your righteousness is the righteousness of the Law, which demands punishment for sin. But 3:21 says this whole thing is apart from the Law.
Not quite.

The whole thing accomplished by Christ is according to the Law, but granted to us freely by grace.

Paul's real explanation of this in Rom 6:1-11. But there's nothing there about God requiring punishment.
Your absence of God's justice in your theology causes you to set Ro 6:1-11 against the clear statement of Ro 3:25-26 that God presented Jesus as atonement for the sins of the OT to demonstrate his justice (dike), which is his righteousness (dike).

"The punishment that brought us peace was upon him." (Isa 53:5)

"Without the shedding of blood (sacrifice), there is no forgiveness." (Heb 9:22).
 
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sdowney717

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SDowney...I loved your post but where did you get "penalty" out of Romans 6:23? The word originally is a military term for a soldiers compensation, and is also used for payment, or an allowance...so I get the idea of a payment which is due, but a penalty carries an implication of punishment that is not in the text (Seriously! Go ahead and exegete the passage for yourself...it just is not there). Not that we are not worthy of being punished for those sins like Adam's which are straight forward disobedience, but penalty is just not found here in the grammar. What do you say? Maybe I am splitting hairs...yes? no?

Paul

Yes, Thanks, it really says wages, I know that, not perfect.:)
Still a recompense, the soul that sins shall die.
Want me to edit to wages?

Wages implies earnings, with sins we earn death.
 
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