Christian Jesus or Muslim Jesus?

Phantasman

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The Muslims are anti Jewish, have been, always will be. They probably root from from the Philistines. I don't believe that Jesus is Jewish or Muslim, but established the birth of Christianity. Muhammad violated Jesus teachings by attacking Mecca as well as David did for his slaughter of people. Their kingdoms were of this Earth, not as the saviors were. The Muslims still face their Kingdom in prayer as a ritual.

Muhammad still spoke of physical things with spiritual overtones (like virgins in heaven), and not of spiritual things compared to physical parables like Christ.

It's not hard for one who has read the non Canonical early Christian writings to identify the difference.
 
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Not helpful without citations.

I'm not a scholar, so I can't guess how many citations you need before you learn something useful :p

"I did not succumb to them as they had planned. But I was not afflicted at all. Those who were there punished me. And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I <suffered> according to their sight and thought, in order that they may never find any word to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance. " ~The Second Treatise of the Great Seth

The entire text, from what I gather, is trying to straighten out Christian theology. If you want more super-duper citations I'd read April DeConick's "The Thirteenth Apostle" where she talks about the Sethian rejection of blood atonement.

Gnostics were most active in the 2nd century and the Quran was 7th century according to wiki (I know very little about Islam so I'll just go with that).

So it's just a matter of putting dots together. I don't know specifically in the Quran where it talks about the crucifixion so I'm not even going to begin to try to look that up. I do know that they write that someone was substituted for Christ at the last moment. Since this is not the first mention of this event happening it makes perfect sense that this idea was stolen from the Sethians, and twisted for their own purposes.

Also from what I have been told (sorry no sources!) it isn't very likely that Mohammed wrote the Quran. I find it highly unlikely that the entire Quran was revealed to someone by an angel so I think it makes sense that the Quran was built on the back of other sources. Similarly to a large amount of Christian literature being built on the back of Jewish texts, and Genesis being built upon the Epic of Gilgamesh and so forth.

So....Again I hope that is "helpful," but take that information for what it is. I'm guessing almost no-one understands the (unfortunate) connection between Sethian Christians and Islam, but I think it is something that people should know.
 
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Anto9us

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I have heard of the Gnostic story you mention, it was called "The Laughing Christ" - the idea of the "real" Christ floating above the Cross laughing because His enemies thought they had killed him - while the "human who had hosted Him" - so to speak - was the one who died.

But I had only heard the story summarized - never seen word from word from the Sethian text you posted - so its easy to see how things get changed around.

Most of what we hear of Gnostics is from their opponents - down through Christian history, at least until Nag Hammadi was discovered.

I have a couple of copies of the Koran - it is bizarre to me - but if anyone finds where the Koran has this "laughing Christ rewrite" - I would like to read it in the Koran.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Isaac means he shall laugh also, and speaks of him that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh also.

For example...

Psalm 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

If you go back to Isasc, God tells him what name to call Him

Gen 17:19 God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac:

Isaac = "he laughs"

...and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

Luke 6:21 Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

.... thou shalt call his name Isaac = "he laughs"


Ecc 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh

At the appointed time in respects to Isaac = "he laughs"

Again...

Psalm 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have themin derision.

Luke 6:21 Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.

Can be shown in Christ
 
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Rubiks

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Nevertheless it did not stop him boasting that there are at least 120 direct references to Mohammed in the Bible (put there courtesy of Muslim scholars, of course).

I thought muslims didn't believe in the Bible, or do they pick and chose which verses to believe?
 
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There is a Sethian Gnostic text (I'm not sure which one off hand) where another person is substituted to be crucified in the place of Christ at the last minute.

"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." John 16:7

Clearly, every Christian who has been blessed with the Holy Ghost bears testimony that Jesus was crucified.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Yeah, you can even catch the picture of the cross in Abraham, given the allegory if given that Abraham had two sons by two women, which were the two covenants.

But the third days is shown beforehand variously, Paul saying God preached the Gospel (which is of Christ) to Abraham, the scriptures foreseeing God would justify the nations by faith.

Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

God saying to Abraham of the Son of promise saying

Gen 2:22 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

And Abraham went seeing before...

Gen 22:3 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises ,but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

Was speaking of Jesus Christ

Gen 22:3 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

This is where Abraham said to Isaac...

Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My Son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Whereas in John the Baptist, the forerunner to Jesus Christ

John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Christ crucified is what they preached.:thumbsup:
 
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"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." John 16:7

Clearly, every Christian who has been blessed with the Holy Ghost bears testimony that Jesus was crucified.

There was some arguing over the meaning of the crucifixion and what exactly the source of salvation was before Catholicism. I see the Sethian writings as metaphorical arguments about theology, not a literal history. If you are looking to Gnostic texts for history than you are looking in the wrong place ;)
 
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I have heard of the Gnostic story you mention, it was called "The Laughing Christ" - the idea of the "real" Christ floating above the Cross laughing because His enemies thought they had killed him - while the "human who had hosted Him" - so to speak - was the one who died.

But I had only heard the story summarized - never seen word from word from the Sethian text you posted - so its easy to see how things get changed around..

There are several Gnostic texts where Christ is laughing. My memory is unfortunately not good with details so I can't quite recall the significance. However there seems to be somewhat of a progression in Sethian writing, to the point where they reject the proto-orthodox view on the crucifixion completely.

I believe that there's is more of a logical argument, basically saying: it isn't logical in anyway for Christ to have to sacrifice his life to either YHWH or satan. I believe some Sethian writing proposes the crucifixion was a trick against Yaldabaoth (the devil), and of course in the one I cited that is the case, except there was no crucifixion. (Again I find it incredibly important to note that Sethians and other Gnostic Christians never attacked the divinity of Christ).

I don't think you will find the story of the "laughing Christ" or the trick against Yaldabaoth in the Quran. From what I understand the part they co-opted was simply the bait-and-switch, while completely abandoning the intent of The Second Treatise of the Great Seth.

To go a bit further many Gnostics were matter/spirit dualists, noting that the physical world is an illusion or bastardized copy of our real spiritual realm. One of the texts I find most illuminating is: "Treatise on the Resurrection" which states "the resurrection is the revelation of what is" noting that one layer of meaning of the resurrection is that it symbolically represents Christ dying to show us the different between the truth and illusion.
 
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There was some arguing over the meaning of the crucifixion and what exactly the source of salvation was before Catholicism. I see the Sethian writings as metaphorical arguments about theology, not a literal history. If you are looking to Gnostic texts for history than you are looking in the wrong place

I've got a copy of the Nag Hammadi Gnostic texts. They're interesting, but I certainly wouldn't define them as history. Many of them seem to cast great dispersion on the fact that Jesus ever lived in the flesh as a man, let alone was crucified.

Not my cup of tea...
 
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I thought muslims didn't believe in the Bible, or do they pick and chose which verses to believe?

Muslims hold the Bible to be the Word of God on par with the Q'ran, but they believe that the Bible as we have it was corrupted by Christians and is, therefore, unreliable. They usually look at the Bible through their Islamic lenses and force it to fit into their theology.

For those who have not read the Q'ran, it is quite unlike the Bible. It is not written in a narrative sequence but it is somewhat like the book of Proverbs with disjointed statements which were combined after the death of Mohammed by his followers. Many of these statements (which were written on palm leaves) were burned by them because they believed them to be of Satanic origin. These destroyed verses are commonly called the Satanic verses. Salmon Rushdie, a Muslim novelist, wrote a famous novel called The Satanic Verses. As a result, a fatweh (sentence of death) was pronounced against him the the ayatollahs in Iran. Rushdie went into hiding in Britain and remains safe and secure under heavy protection to this day.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Heres just a few more which show Christ, and just a few because there is so many more you can weave into this.


1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.


1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist , that denieth the Father and the Son.

2John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Islam denies the Father and the Son:

The Christians say:The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; (Sura 9:29)

However, after asking his disciples who men say that I am, Jesus asked His own disciples who they say he is...

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus indicates what Peter said was revealed to him by the Father (verses men) whereas it says here...

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

(Sura 29 continued) they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them (Sura 9:29-30).

Is that true? Because the testimony of men on the otherhand in their conclusions is shown here....

Mat 14:16... Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Mat 14:17And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Now here it says...

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But their doctrine says...

It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified (Sura 19:35).

Whereas ours says also...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (From Psalm 2:7 and Acts 13:33)

Whereas here in the OT it asks this question...

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

The answer is found in how he is declared to be the Son of God (even as an answer to the prior question accordingly)

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Another from the OT

Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Very much in accord with these words...

Ephes 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Isaiah 55:4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand...

So he turns and asks them...

Luke 20:44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

They couldnt answer the how of that, however

This very verse is continued here (after the apostles quote that same verse) they say

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

And again...

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

This also can be woven into the sure mercies of David and what the apostles speak in respects to the same coming through one man (who they preached) Jesus Christ.

Just a few if they can be helpful to someone.
 
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Heres just a few more which show Christ, and just a few because there is so many more you can weave into this.


1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.


1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist , that denieth the Father and the Son.

2John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2John 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Islam denies the Father and the Son:

The Christians say:The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; (Sura 9:29)

However, after asking his disciples who men say that I am, Jesus asked His own disciples who they say he is...

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus indicates what Peter said was revealed to him by the Father (verses men) whereas it says here...

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

(Sura 29 continued) they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them (Sura 9:29-30).

Is that true? Because the testimony of men on the otherhand in their conclusions is shown here....

Mat 14:16... Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Mat 14:17And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Now here it says...

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But their doctrine says...

It does not befit GOD that He begets a son, be He glorified (Sura 19:35).

Whereas ours says also...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (From Psalm 2:7 and Acts 13:33)

Whereas here in the OT it asks this question...

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

The answer is found in how he is declared to be the Son of God (even as an answer to the prior question accordingly)

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Another from the OT

Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Very much in accord with these words...

Ephes 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Isaiah 55:4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand...

So he turns and asks them...

Luke 20:44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

They couldnt answer the how of that, however

This very verse is continued here (after the apostles quote that same verse) they say

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

And again...

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

This also can be woven into the sure mercies of David and what the apostles speak in respects to the same coming through one man (who they preached) Jesus Christ.

Just a few if they can be helpful to someone.

Thank you for the excellent Bible verses in contrast to the Surahs from the Q'ran.
 
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I've got a copy of the Nag Hammadi Gnostic texts. They're interesting, but I certainly wouldn't define them as history. Many of them seem to cast great dispersion on the fact that Jesus ever lived in the flesh as a man, let alone was crucified.

Not my cup of tea...


It's quite a different perspective on Christianity and certainly not for everyone. IMO there isn't necessarily a rejection of a literal Christ but a layered view of Christ as both literal and mythical.

"Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way. There is a rebirth and an image of rebirth. It is certainly necessary to be born again through the image. Which one? Resurrection. The image must rise again through the image."~ Gospel of Philip
 
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