-Luk 21:25 "And there shall be [signs in the sun]"

JLB777 said:

Likewise Jesus prophesies of the signs before His return at the end of the age.

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." Luke 21:25-28


Now when these things begin to happen, look up...

Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud ...

A literal prophecy and a literal return of a literal Jesus.


Thanks again for demonstrating why Preterism is Heresy.

Keep up the good work!


JLB

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coraline said:

The opposite of literal isn't "spiritual"

It is "figurative" which this apocalyptic language demonstrates.

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bibletruth469 said:

Many people from the preterists viewpoint unfortunately twist the scripture around to make a literal verse in the scripture to make it spiritual or ' figurative '.They claim that because the book of revelation has many symbols, that it must be taken in a figurative or they spiritualize the book and explain it away as 'prophetic language '. This is not how the scripture was meant to be interpreted .

The bible is interwoven between the old and the new testaments . If a symbol is present in the scripture , it will be interpreted elsewhere in scripture . The bible says what it means in the plain common sense of the language . People who spiritualize the scriptures ,especially the end time prophecies can make it mean anything they want it to mean. God intends His Word to be understood !

I listed some scripture verses below :

2 pet 1:20-21 " knowing this first that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation . For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit ".

2 Tim 3:16," All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine , for reproof, for correction , for instruction in righteousness ".

Deut 8:3 "....that He might make thee know that man doth not live by bread alone , but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of The Lord that man live".

Psalm 119:105 " thy word is a lamp unto my feet , and a light unto my path".

The bible is meant for people to understand . I believe that the end time prophecies should be taken literally. They haven't all been fulfilled yet like the preterist claim!

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coraline said:

Have you ever studied anything "preterist?"

I have analyzed & reviewed all futuristic interpretations & I can tell you that they are all of "private opinions" of men today.

BTW, Peter is saying in 2Pet.1:20-21 that men like him (holy men) were gifted & given inspiration to write prophecies in Bible. Which he is one author in. He nor other "holy men" did not write their own opinions.

We are to discern the prophecies, not create them.

And many times we must discern scripture through "spiritual eyes" - our spiritual minds.

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HannibalFlavius said in post 36:

Revelation shows a commercial Babylon, a religious Babylon, and a physical Babylon.

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HannibalFlavius said in post 36:

The physical Babylon has fallen.

The commercial Babylon has fallen.

The religious Babylon is about to fall.

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JLB777 said in post 38:

Most Christian Forums have declared Preterism as Heresy.

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bibletruth469 said in post 43:

They claim that because the book of revelation has many symbols, that it must be taken in a figurative or they spiritualize the book and explain it away as 'prophetic language '. This is not how the scripture was meant to be interpreted .

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coraline said:

Apocalyptic Language

by Jim Gunter

The following is a little essay on “Prophetic Apocalyptic Language” and how that particular language should affect our interpretation of the “new covenant” Scriptures. I would like to begin this little enterprise by citing a Bible passage:

“For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; the sun will be dark when it rises, and the moon will not shed its light.”

Sound familiar? Because there has been so much debate and discussion for such a long time on a perceived, “end of the world,” it’s quite probable that someone right now is thinking:

“Why sure, those are the words of Jesus in Matthew 24:29, where He described what’s going to happen at the end of the world; that it will be the time when the sun and the moon are to cease shining, and the stars are all going to fall from the sky, and Jesus comes back to the earth riding on the clouds of heaven!"

This may well have been your guess as to the passage, as well as your understanding of it. Well, good folks, if you had guessed Matthew 24:29 to be the passage I quoted, you would have been mistaken, because that was a quote from Isaiah 13:10, 13, spoken some 750 years before Jesus used this same kind of language. My point being, that when we read this type of prophecy in the “New Testament,” whether spoken by Jesus, or written by one of the inspired writers, I believe it is imperative, that we go to the original source of such language if we are to arrive at the true meaning of the passage under consideration! It’s imperative because, as we just learned, this awesome, colorful, celestial imagery has its roots in the old covenant Scriptures, i.e., the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms.

I sincerely believe that if we fail to educate ourselves to the true meaning of this language in its original Old Testament usage and context, then we are giving our minds over to the mercy of our imaginations. And of course, when that happens, we begin to “think” we see all sorts of things that, in actuality, we don’t really see at all. And this, of course, spawns all sorts of wild speculation and erroneous interpretations, which preclude us from understanding the “true” message being conveyed by our Creator.

I have found Jesus’ words in Matthew 24:29, to be only one of many such “New Testament” prophetic utterances that have the “Old Testament” Scriptures as their original source. So at this point, I would like to cite a few more of those “Old Testament” prophecies, and their fulfillments; prophecies which use the same kind of imagery as described above. And I’d like to start with the one I cited at the beginning of this essay, and which was later drawn upon by Jesus in Matthew 24:29. Of course, I’m speaking of Isaiah 13. Please examine this prophecy with me and let us see what those words meant when God utilized them for the “first” time. Because, if we can learn what they meant then, then we can know with certainty what they would mean when used later in the New Testament Scriptures of the 1st century.

Isaiah 13—God’s Judgment on Babylon:

1 “The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see . . .
3 I have commanded My sanctified ones, I have also called My mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.
4b . . . The Lord of hosts mustereth the battle.
5 They come from a far county, from the end of heaven, even the Lord and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
6 Howl ye, for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man’s heart shall melt;
8 And they shall be afraid; pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth; they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof, will not give their light ; the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore, I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger . . .
15 Everyone that is found will be thrust through, and everyone who is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16 Their children shall also be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.”

Surely, we have no difficulty recognizing Isaiah’s prophecy here to be speaking of the judgment God was about to bring upon Nebuchadnezzar and his Babylonian empire. This prophecy, of course, was fulfilled in 538 BC, when God’s mighty instrument of judgment—the Medes—brought total destruction upon that kingdom. Let us take note of a few remarkable things the Lord said would take place at that great judgment, including some spectacular celestial phenomena:

1. God spoke of the Medes as “His sanctified ones,” “His mighty ones,” And, that it was He, Yahweh, who was “mustering the army” (vv.3, 4b).

2. God said the Medes would “come from a far country; from the end of heaven” (v.5).

3. Isaiah called that judgment, “a destruction from the Almighty,” and that it would take place on, “the Day of The Lord” (v.6).

4. God said that “every man’s heart will melt” and “their faces will be as flames” (vv.7, 8).

5. He also prophesied that, “the stars, including all the constellations would not give their light” (v.10).

6. “The sun would be darkened.” (v.10).

7.”The moon would not give her light.” (v.10).

8. “The world would be punished for its evil” (v.11).

9. “The heavens would be shaken” (v.13).

10. “The earth would be moved from its place” (v.13).

When considering the various elements described in this judgment on Babylon, there’s a lot I can learn about how God effects His will. And another very important thing I can learn about is the very highly charged, highly symbolic, colorful language, He employed in expressing His judgments.

Under points 1-3, we get another lesson in how God used men—often times “evil” men—to execute His judgments. First it should be remembered that the Medes, of course, were not God’s people. However, in this account, He called them His “sanctified ones,” His “mighty ones.” In other words, God had “set apart” the Medes for His purpose. It was not at all uncommon for the Lord to speak of “evil’ men as His servants in a context such as this! You may remember that when God pronounced judgment upon His own people, Judah, sending them away for 70 years of Babylonian captivity, He spoke of this same king, Nebuchadnezzar, as “His servant” (Jer 25:9). He was God’s servant in the sense that he was to be His (God’s) instrument of judgment on Judah; the very same way as Rome would be used by Jesus as His lethal instrument against Jerusalem and the Jewish nation in AD 70! Therefore, the reason for God applying the aforementioned terms He did to the Medes, was as He declared in v. 3: “They would execute His anger.”

Let us now, take a closer look into the terrestrial and celestial phenomena described in points 4-10 above.

First, let’s look at (4): Would any of us believe that we are to understand, that the hearts of the Babylonians literally “melted” within their chests, in this conflict? Did God really intend for us to understand that men’s faces were literally “on fire”?

Then, under (5), (6), and (7): Would any of us conclude from these statements, that all of the stars, constellations, the sun, and moon ceased to shine during the Medes destruction of Babylon?

Now please consider (9) and (10): Does God really mean for us to understand that Heaven itself literally shook in this battle? And was the physical earth literally moved from its place in orbit around the sun?

Surely, any serious student of the Father’s Word would answer, “No!” to all of the above questions, for he recognizes that those marvelous, super-charged phenomena did not “literally” take place. My dear friends please think about this for a moment: If that spectacular display of celestial catastrophes literally took place at that time, do you realize that the very fabric of our planet would be no more! However, this is not to say that those things did not have meaning, or that we should just simply overlook them. Oh no! Those things are very important to us, and they, indeed, did serve a most useful purpose! We all understand that they were symbols. And because they were symbols, they had to have been symbolic of “some-thing” or “some-one”! But symbolic of what, or of whom? Well, I believe if we simply allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, then they will tell us exactly what those things symbolized.

The Beginning of Celestial Imagery:

The very first time the sun, moon, and stars were used as symbols in the Scriptures, is found in Genesis 37:9-11. Do you recall the two dreams Joseph had as a lad? The first was a dream of the sheaves of wheat (vv. 5-8), where the sheaves of his brothers bowed down to Joseph’s sheaf? Upon telling his brothers of the dream, they indicated by their response that they understood its meaning, viz., that Joseph would actually rule over them one day. We are all familiar with the narrative and how that came to pass, when Joseph, later, through Divine providence, became ruler in Egypt, second only to Pharaoh in authority.

But it is in Joseph’s second dream where we gain the most insight into the symbols of Isaiah’s prophecy regarding Babylon. In Joseph’s second dream (vv. 9-11), the sun, moon, and eleven stars bowed down to him. He related the dream to his father, Jacob, and also to his brothers. If you will look at v. 10, you will see that Jacob knew exactly what the dream meant, for he immediately asked Joseph:

“Shall I and your mother, and your brothers actually bow down before you to the ground?”

Verse 11 says that Joseph’s brothers were jealous of him, but that Jacob kept the saying in his mind, or heart. Yes, Jacob knew exactly what the dream meant. And, it’s also very clear from Jacob’s words, that he understood the sun, moon, and eleven stars of the dream to be “symbols”! And friends, isn’t it interesting that we’re not left here to guess or speculate as to what the sun, moon and eleven stars symbolized? From the language, it’s clear that the sun symbolized the #1 authority figure—Jacob—the head of the family. The moon, being the lesser of the two great lights (because it reflected the light of the sun), symbolized the lesser or #2 authority figure—Rachael—Joseph’s mother. And finally, we see that the eleven stars symbolized Joseph’s brothers; those of even lesser rank, who were the subjects under the higher authorities!

Folks, I have to say that this helps me immensely, when I see this same imagery used in our Isaiah 13 prophecy regarding “Babylon,” as well as other prophetic judgments of God against nations, kings, governments, or dynasties—yea even against His own people, Israel!

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the sea and the waves roaring;

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Bible2 said:

Do you mean full preterism, as opposed to partial preterism? If so, that's right.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus and rapture (gathering together) of the church, which won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-21). But the apostle Paul, in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, wasn't so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says that the day of the Lord/Christ is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2), in the sense of already present, that the 2nd coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already past (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

~

Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, and symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all have originated from the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, and symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD. Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), or is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events, which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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JLB777 said:

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

Out of the highlighted scriptures above, why is verse 20 literal and verse 27 is parabolic or symbolic?

Where are the words of Jesus to show us this like -

Now hear the parable of the fig tree?

Sorry, preterist must twist what the scriptures say when the words don't fit their own private interpretation.


JLB

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coraline said:

That's Madam Heretic to you, Beelzebub!

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bbyrd009 said:

Ya...the thing about your model, JLB, is that people have been looking for Armageddon since Christ walked the earth. It is not heretical to at least examine the evidence for more spiritual interpretations, wouldn't you agree?

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