People speak of comparing Mohammad and Jesus.

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Arthra

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Football wrote above:

When he was in the cave the Angel "Gabriel" came to him. He told Muhammad to read but Muhammad said he couldn't read. Then the angel pressed him forcefully until he could no longer bear it. What kind of Angel does this sound like?

My comment:

Hmmmm...Someone said they didn't know how to speak...

4 The word of the Lord came to me, saying,
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew[a] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

6 “Alas, Sovereign Lord,” I said, “I do not know how to speak; I am too young.”

Who do you recall wrestled with an angel?

Genesis 32:

24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[a] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[b] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

Wait...are those more comparisons?
 
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football5680

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Well let's see so far..

(1) both Prophet Muhammad and Jesus Christ sought solitude..

(2) both had twelve disciples...

(3) both were rebuked by the established religious order..

(4) both were reviled and cursed...
You can find similarities between anybody. I feel a better comparison would be with Hitler.

1. Both used fear to control people.

2. Both saw the Jews as their great enemies and committed atrocities against them.

3. Both preached that their followers were superior to all others and everybody else were animals compared to them.

4. Both got what they wanted through force.

5. Both forcefully stole things from the people around them.

6. Both captured and forced people into slavery.

7. Both rose to power forcefully.

8. Both had and continue to have fanatical followers who commit atrocities in the name of the beliefs the two men created.

9. Both viewed women as inferior in intelligence.

10. Both looked into other religions but in the end decided to create their own.
 
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awitch

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Arthra

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Onward and upward...

I did find an interesting parallel between what's known as the Parable of the laborers in the vineyard and a Hadith..

First the parable:

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.


3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.


“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6



About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’


7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’


8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman,

‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’


9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius.



11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’


13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’


16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Now the Hadith tradition:

Volume 3, Book 36, Number 468:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

The Prophet said, "Your example and the
example of the people of the two Scriptures (i.e.
Jews and Christians) is like the example of a man
who employed some laborers and asked them,
'Who will work for me from morning till midday
for one Qirat?' The Jews accepted and carried
out the work. He then asked, Who will work for
me from midday up to the 'Asr prayer for one
Qirat?' The Christians accepted and fulfilled the
work. He then said, 'Who will work for me from
the 'Asr till sunset for two Qirats?' You, Muslims
have accepted the offer. The Jews and the
Christians got angry and said, 'Why should we
work more and get lesser wages?' (Allah) said,
'Have I with-held part of your right?' They
replied in the negative. He said, 'It is My
Blessing, I bestow upon whomever I wish .'

(Hadith, Bukhari Vol 3)
 
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Zoness

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Have you see the "ConversationWithA" channel on youtube? A monthly compilation of atrocities from around the world committed in the name of religions.

I might have to check it out, but I feel that I will probably lose even more faith in humanity.
 
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Supreme

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Have you see the "ConversationWithA" channel on youtube? A monthly compilation of atrocities from around the world committed in the name of religions.

Which will no doubt neglect the buckloads of good deeds carried out in the name of religions. Religion can be a force for good as well as bad.
 
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Zoness

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Which will no doubt neglect the buckloads of good deeds carried out in the name of religions. Religion can be a force for good as well as bad.

That may be the case but this discussion was spurred in part by a faith-in-humanity-losing image I posted as a general rebuttal to the urinating contest about who's religion is more and less evil. Personally, I don't deny lots of good happening in religion but living in the United States especially I see lots of the bad of Christianity and the militant aggression and for Islam one needn't go far outside of a major news site.
 
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Arthra

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Waraqa as a Christian compared what the Apostle of Allah experienced with what Moses experienced..


Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:

Narrated 'Aisha:

(Hadith, Bukhari Vol 1)


Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin
Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza,
who, during the PreIslamic Period became a
Christian and used to write the writing with
Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel
in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write.
He was an old man and had lost his eyesight.

Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of
your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O
my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's
Apostle described whatever he had seen.

Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps
the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent
to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up
to the time when your people would turn you
out."

Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me
out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said,

"Anyone (man) who came with something similar
to what you have brought was treated with
hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day
when you will be turned out then I would support
you strongly."

But after a few days Waraqa died
and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a
while.

(Hadith, Bukhari Vol 1)
 
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Sword of the Lord

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He's so like Jesus...

542873_140735316083190_1570052948_n.jpg


Don't make me puke
 
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Arthra

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To allege "rape" in the case of Aisha is I think highly irregular and inappropriate. Her marriage with Muhammad was approved by her father Abu Bakr and after an engagement to marry another person Jubayr ibn Mut'im had already been broken because she was a Muslim.

If you'd like to seriously discuss the issue of the age of Aisha that is an area that is somewhat controversial...

People did not have birthdays as we do today in our culture and there was not a standard calendar ... there fore some of the ages of the persons at this time is largely questionable..

We do not know for sure when Prophet Muhammad was born...

According to tradition the first wife of the Prophet Khadijih was forty years old when she married Muhammad and that marriage lasted at least twenty years and she bore Him it is believed at least three children...some believe she had three children from a previous marriage..but in any event having children after forty years of age would seem to be unusual when most had children quite early so the age of Khadijih is questionable. In the Meccan society a monogamous marriage of twenty years was also unusual.

An article suggests that Khadijih was twelve years younger than the forty years suggested by tradition when she married Muhammad:

http://ustazkamal3449.blogspot.com/2011/04/our-prophet-pbuh-married-khadijah-rha.html

and note the following Hadith re. the age of Aisha:

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 465:

Narrated 'Aisha:

(the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents
following Islam since I attained the age of
puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet
visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My
father Abii Bakr thought of building a mosque in
the courtyard of his house and he did so. He
used to pray and recite the Qur'án in it. The
pagan women and their children used to stand by
him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was
a Softhearted person and could not help weeping
while reciting the Quran. The chiefs of the
Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that
their children and women might be affected by
the recitation of Quran)."

(Hadith, Bukhari Vol 1)


The above tradition suggests that Aisha had reached the age of puberty while she still lived with her parents
before the marriage with the Prophet. Since Muhammad left Mecca in 622 A.D. and all accounts agree that the marriage was not consummated until two years after the hijra, around 624 A.D. Aisha must have been older than supposed.

If you'd like to read further on the subject see:

http://www.lastprophet.info/at-what-age-did-aisha-marry-the-prophet

Hadith traditions vary and were gathered a hundred years after the events in question hence they can only be taken as verbal traditions...
 
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football5680

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To allege "rape" in the case of Aisha is I think highly irregular and inappropriate. Her marriage with Muhammad was approved by her father Abu Bakr and after an engagement to marry another person Jubayr ibn Mut'im had already been broken because she was a Muslim.

If you'd like to seriously discuss the issue of the age of Aisha that is an area that is somewhat controversial...

People did not have birthdays as we do today in our culture and there was not a standard calendar ... there fore some of the ages of the persons at this time is largely questionable..

We do not know for sure when Prophet Muhammad was born...

According to tradition the first wife of the Prophet Khadijih was married to Him for twenty years and she bore Him it is believed at least three children...some believe she had three children from a previous marriage..but in any event having children after forty years of age would seem to be unusual when most had children quite early so the age of Khadijih is questionable.

and note the following Hadith re. the age of Aisha:

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 465:

Narrated 'Aisha:

(the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents
following Islam since I attained the age of
puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet
visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My
father Abii Bakr thought of building a mosque in
the courtyard of his house and he did so. He
used to pray and recite the Qur'án in it. The
pagan women and their children used to stand by
him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was
a Softhearted person and could not help weeping
while reciting the Quran. The chiefs of the
Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that
their children and women might be affected by
the recitation of Quran)."

(Hadith, Bukhari Vol 1)


The above tradition suggests that Aisha had reached the age of puberty while she still lived with her parents before the marriage with the Prophet. Since Muhammad left Mecca in 622 A.D. and all accounts agree that the marriage was not consummated until two years after the hijra, around 624 A.D. Aisha must have been older than supposed.

If you'd like to read further on the subject see:

At What Age did Aisha Marry the Prophet? - ReÅŸit Haylamaz - Muhammad (pbuh) - Prophet of Islam

Hadith traditions vary and were gathered a hundred years after the events in question hence they can only be taken as verbal traditions...
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).


Sahih Bukhari is the best and Sahih Muslim is the second best and it says the same thing in both. They did have a standard calendar but it would actually work against you because if it was based upon that calendar then she would be younger. The lunar calendar is shorter than the solar calendar by about a month or two.
 
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Illuminaughty

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"So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."
-Numbers 31:17,18


^^ Stuff like that and Muhammad's marriage to a minor were really common back in the day and both those examples are good reasons that we can't blindly follow everything we find in an ancient religious book or that might be attributed to a famous religious leaders.
 
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Sword of the Lord

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"So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."
-Numbers 31:17,18


^^ Stuff like that and Muhammad's marriage to a minor were really common back in the day and both those examples are good reasons that we can't blindly follow everything we find in an ancient religious book or that might be attributed to a famous religious leaders.

that's really neat, but we aren't under the OT but the NEW, so invalid argument
 
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Arthra

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Both Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad preached about resurrection:

14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.

14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

(King James Bible, Luke)

5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(King James Bible, John)

.............................................................................

The heavens well-nigh burst asunder thereat, and the earth is riven, and the mountains fall down broken, that they attribute to the Merciful a son! but it becomes not the Merciful to take to Himself a son! there is none in the heavens or the earth but comes to the Merciful as a servant; He counts them and numbers them by number, and they are all coming to Him on the resurrection day singly. Verily, those who believe and act aright, to them the Merciful will give love.

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 19 - Mary)


But the reward of such among you as do that shall be. nought else but disgrace in this worldly life, and on the day of the resurrection shall they be driven to the most grievous torment, for God is not unmindful of what ye do.

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)

The Jews say, 'The Christians rest on nought;' and the Christians say, 'The Jews rest on nought; and yet they read the Book. So, too, say those who know not, like to what these say; but God shall judge between them' on the resurrection day concerning that whereon they do dispute.

(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)
 
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Arthra

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Footbal wrote:

"Sahih Bukhari is the best and Sahih Muslim is the second best and it says the same thing in both. They did have a standard calendar but it would actually work against you because if it was based upon that calendar then she would be younger. The lunar calendar is shorter than the solar calendar by about a month or two."

Actually it was more complicated than that:

In AD 638 (17 AH), Abu Musa Ashaari, one of the officials of the Caliph Umar in Basrah, complained about the absence of any years on the correspondence he received from Umar, making it difficult for him to determine which instructions were most recent. This report convinced Umar of the need to introduce an era for Muslims. After debating the issue with his counsellors, he decided that the first year should include the date of Muhammad's arrival at Medina (known as Yathrib, before Muhammad's arrival). Uthman ibn Affan then suggested that the months begin with Muharram, in line with the established custom of the Arabs at that time.[21] The years of the Islamic calendar thus began with the month of Muharram in the year of Muhammad's arrival at the city of Medina, even though the actual emigration took place in Safar and Rabi' I.[3] Because of the Hijra, the calendar was named the Hijra calendar.

Islamic calendar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

:)
 
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