The Lawless One Being Revealed In Mankind

HannibalFlavius said:

Show it to me in the old Testament.

Click to expand...

Most of the prophecies in Daniel have been fulfilled, however many are still unfulfilled. Daniel 7 is an example of this, it's quite amazing once you make the connection, as you'll be able to understand how Daniel and John are both having visions of the exact same person. It is also without question in reference to the end-times, the events that will unfold directly preceding the second coming of Christ and His establishing of the kingdom. It is all tied together. There has always been and will always be persecution, but the begging and end of the church age is what has been / will be punctuated by extreme levels of it. Here's a brief study,

Daniel 7
I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom...

...He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.

Revelations 13
It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain...

...There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven...

Revelations 19
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.

Revelations 20
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Jesus' Kingdom already established at his Incarnation. Where the King is the Kingdom is also. Agape that Rev.13, or do I for today's time? Just ol' old Jack.

4LivingCreations said in post 52:

The abomination that causes desolation is to always dwell on gloom, reaching self gain through iniquity, accusing God, etc.

Click to expand...

It's not that, but something more specific. For Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. And per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after "they" have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

*******

4LivingCreations said in post 58:

The body is the temple, and all these bad things that are in the temple are inside the individual.

Click to expand...

While every Christian's individual human body is a temple (1 Corinthians 6:19), and there's also the temple of Jesus' individual human body (John 2:21), human bodies aren't the only temple of God. For they coexist with the figurative temple building of the church as a whole (Ephesians 2:21), and with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19). And if human bodies can currently coexist with these other temples of God, they will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21) and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). That's why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old-Covenant-Mosaic-law 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6) because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

Quantum Paradise said in post 53:

You may not like the term "Anti-Christ", sure...but that would just be an issue of semantics.

Click to expand...

Good point.

The idea of the individual-man Antichrist doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Antichrist", in order for it to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the idea of the Trinity doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Trinity", in order for it to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. Matthew 28:19, John 1:1,14, Acts 5:3-4).

The man commonly called the Antichrist is the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He's the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Revelation 13:18) and bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), who by amazing, Luciferian miracles (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the people of the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), whereas at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the scriptures by the church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Revelation 13:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Revelation 13:17c-18).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's name will add up to six hundred and sixty-six (Revelation 13:17c-18).

*******

Quantum Paradise said in post 61:

Most of the prophecies in Daniel have been fulfilled, however many are still unfulfilled. Daniel 7 is an example of this, it's quite amazing once you make the connection, as you'll be able to understand how Daniel and John are both having visions of the exact same person.

Click to expand...

That's right.

For in Daniel 7, while the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman Empire. The 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman Empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand, and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other, could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one confederation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman Empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist confederation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This confederation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist confederation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control over all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control over different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

Quantum Paradise said in post 61:

There has always been and will always be persecution, but the begging and end of the church age is what has been / will be punctuated by extreme levels of it.

Click to expand...

Note that there's no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). The church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), and then forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

shturt678 said in post 62:

Jesus' Kingdom already established at his Incarnation.

Click to expand...

Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). In the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21) and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

HannibalFlavius said:

So there is a man who was to come that seeks to change the Sabbaths, feasts, and the laws of God who fights against the saints of the most high that keeps them?

The times and seasons are the Sabbaths, feasts, and laws.

Is that what your saying?

That a man will come and turn the children of Israel away from the Sabbath of God, the Pesach, Shavuot, Sukkot, and he speaks against the keeping of the law?

I'm going to have to agree with you.

What is this man's name?

Click to expand...

"...I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom...

...But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him."

This did not take place following the downfall of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

The saints take possession of the kingdom, i.e. the Church of Christ, as per Revelations. This is not in reference to Israel.

HannibalFlavius said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3

Let no one deceive you by any means; For that day{day of the Lord} will not come unless a falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God........Do you remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; ONLY HE WHO NOW RESTRAINS WILL DO SO UNTIL HE IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of his mouth and destroy with the brightness of his coming.

The coming of the lawless one is according to the workings of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders.............




It is just amazing to me that people will take this scripture and try and paint a picture of an Anti-Christ to be revealed.

It is in no way talking about a single individual, it is talking about the man of sin in mankind.

We are the Temple of the Lord and we house the spirit of God, the law is written upon our hearts.

This scripture talks about a great falling away from the laws of God and his commandments.

People are walking temples and when they go around teaching against God's laws and his worship system, they are sitting in their temple opposing the very word of God and all that is worshipped of God.

They actually think that they have the authority to change or adjust the word of God to their liking, and they have become lawless.

When the day of the Lord comes, these lawless people who have been so bold to oppose the commandments of the Lord will be revealed and destroyed with the brightness of the coming of the Lord.

Jesus said that if you do not keep the least of the commandments and you teach others not to keep it that you will be the least in the kingdom of heaven.....

This vivid detailed warning has been given to all those people who would become lawless and stand against the worship system of God, and the very word of God, and they still oppose God.

Even though this lawlessness is talked about so much, Christians still stand in their lawlessness very proud and this is something I will never understand.

Everyone is looking for some dark evil Anti-Christ so that they can point their finger and say,'' There he is.''

But more often than not, The person should go look in the mirror if they are opposing the worship system of God and God's instructions for worshipping.

Click to expand...

The man of sin/son of perdition is one person, an individual, as described in Revelation 13 and Daniel 11.

"The falling away" is the Greek word Apostasia which means "move away from where you stand" or departure. THE departure (removal of the restrainer, the church) comes first before the Day of the Lord begins when the man of sin/son of perdition is revealed.

Jesus told us to stand until he comes. We are the restrainer that must depart before the day of the Lord can begin and the man of sin can be revealed.

Quantum Paradise said:

Most of the prophecies in Daniel have been fulfilled, however many are still unfulfilled. Daniel 7 is an example of this, it's quite amazing once you make the connection, as you'll be able to understand how Daniel and John are both having visions of the exact same person. It is also without question in reference to the end-times, the events that will unfold directly preceding the second coming of Christ and His establishing of the kingdom. It is all tied together. There has always been and will always be persecution, but the begging and end of the church age is what has been / will be punctuated by extreme levels of it. Here's a brief study,

Daniel 7
I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom...

...He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.

Revelations 13
It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain...

...There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven...

Click to expand...

Hi QP, you can add to that group...

Daniel 11
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done

Which means the Antichrist in Daniel 11:36 is in the same stage of his career as in Revelation 13 (the Antichrist-beast stage) with 42 months left in his time.

Doug

HannibalFlavius said:

Lawlessness is redundant in this language used anytime you speak of the man of sin, he is the lawless one who stands against the commandments of God.

He sits in the place of God showing his authority to change the word of God. He stands against everything that is called of God{Torah}. He is called lawless over and over, and this falling away is a falling away from respecting the law. It is redundant in its language of lawlessness and there is no room to imagine anything else.

The falling away from the law is what the man of sin always comes to do.

He ALWAYS seeks to change the times, the seasons, and laws of God. This is to change the Sabbaths, the festivals and everything that teaches about God.

He turns the children of Israel away from their traditions to be like the gentile nations.

His duty is to assimilate all the children of Israel to be like the nations and to be lawless.

''When LAWLESSNESS abounds.''

''The LAWLESS ONE''


Who has turned the children of God from their times and their seasons?

Who has called the Torah a strange thing?

Doesn't everyone make up their own mind?

Click to expand...

I don't understand what point you are trying to make here.

Paul said he will sit in the Temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Paul got that from Daniel 11 and Isaiah 14, not realizing that the Temple was to be destroyed and Israel desolated until the time of the end.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.


Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

The man of sin, empowered by the devil, will have control of the Temple Mount, just as scripture states. No scripture (Law, Prophets, Psalms) states that the man of sin will sit in a Jewish Temple. It says the man of sin will "plant the tabernacles of his palace...in the holy mountain" and "will sit upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north".

There will not be another physical Temple in Israel until after Christ comes.

Paul was referring to "our gathering together unto" Christ in 2 Thess 2, our departure, the departure of the restrainer, before the Day of the Lord begins and the man of sin is revealed. "Falling away" and "from the faith" was added to scripture, against Jesus' warnings in Revelation. The word is apostasia, meaning departure, not "falling away".

HannibalFlavius said:

If you are looking for a man to come and stop the daily sacrifices, this took place 3 and a half years into the 7 year Jewish war and there has not been a daily sacrifice from that day. Josephus says it fulfilled what was said in Daniel about the daily sacrifices being cut off. There was a statue of Zeus put up in the Temple.

Click to expand...

The abomination of desolation (desolation that lasts until the time of the end), as spoken of through Daniel, occurred in 66-70AD.

From that time on the church evolved into changing the times and the seasons.

Constantine came and wrote it into law but the people had already changed the times and seasons and he takes note of that in speaking of Easter.

So if you are looking for another antichrist, you have to wait till the temple is built and the daily sacrifices to resume.

Click to expand...

No, the antichrist will not have anything to do with abolishing daily sacrifices. That's already been done by the abomination of desolation (Roman armies).

But Here are the facts.

The Jews cannot build a temple even if the mosque was demolished.

They don't know what the measurement of a cubit is and they are waiting on a messiah to tell them.

The Jews no longer believe in sacrifices and would not dream of sacrificing until this Messiah spoken of, comes.

Click to expand...

There will be no Jewish Temple until after Jesus comes. That is correct.

We are the Temple.


But if you are waiting on the man of sin to come and sit in a real temple, then you are going to wait a really long time.

Its not going to happen, a temple is not going to be built in Jerusalem and sacrifices are not going to resume unless the Messiah comes himself and resumes them.

Click to expand...

Yes, that is correct. The cornerstone of the new temple will be laid on the 24th day of the 9th month which will also be the 1335th day after the Day of the Lord begins. (Haggai 2, Daniel 12, Zech 4)

Christ's Kingdom now here on earth is where he rules with his grace and his gospel; Christ's heavenly Kingdom also now is where he rules with heavenly glory. Again from his Incarnation to his resurrection to heaven awaiting for his one Return still ruling. IITim.4:18 for starters. Just ol' old Jack

Bowlfullofjelly said in post 69:

"The falling away" is the Greek word Apostasia which means "move away from where you stand" or departure.

Click to expand...

The "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the church will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it's derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the first century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Bowlfullofjelly said in post 69:

THE departure (removal of the restrainer, the church) comes first before the Day of the Lord begins when the man of sin/son of perdition is revealed.

Click to expand...

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30). Also, there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future, the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), whereas the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he's always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10).

Bowlfullofjelly said in post 69:

THE departure (removal of the restrainer, the church) comes first before the Day of the Lord begins when the man of sin/son of perdition is revealed.

Click to expand...

The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

*******

Bowlfullofjelly said in post 73:

Paul was referring to "our gathering together unto" Christ in 2 Thess 2 . . .

Click to expand...

Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. So Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

HannibalFlavius said in post 72:

Its not going to happen, a temple is not going to be built in Jerusalem and sacrifices are not going to resume unless the Messiah comes himself and resumes them.

Click to expand...

Then a false "Messiah" will come and resume them. For Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the first century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

HannibalFlavius said in post 72:

Its not going to happen, a temple is not going to be built in Jerusalem and sacrifices are not going to resume unless the Messiah comes himself and resumes them.

Click to expand...

Another reason that the 3rd Jewish temple hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government is protecting the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest buildings in Islam, right after those in Mecca and Medina), knowing that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews were to destroy these buildings in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely. While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic state of Israel.

Something that could bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to this point would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in East Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they're allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (or simply clear way their rubble, if they've already been destroyed by great earthquakes by that time).

Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements, something else that could tip the scales toward this happening would be the rising up of a false, miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount? Let us rise up, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

Something else that could help tip the scales regarding the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see the discovery of the Ark as (in their words) "an unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

HannibalFlavius said:

But Here are the facts.

The Jews cannot build a temple even if the mosque was demolished.

They don't know what the measurement of a cubit is and they are waiting on a messiah to tell them.

The Jews no longer believe in sacrifices and would not dream of sacrificing until this Messiah spoken of, comes.

We are the Temple.


But if you are waiting on the man of sin to come and sit in a real temple, then you are going to wait a really long time.

Its not going to happen, a temple is not going to be built in Jerusalem and sacrifices are not going to resume unless the Messiah comes himself and resumes them.

Click to expand...

They are still waiting on a messiah because they reject Jesus Christ. The Antichrist in the third temple will be confirmation of their long-awaited false messiah.

There are millions of people pushing for the construction of the third literal temple in Jerusalem.

The Temple Institute: The Holy Temple in Jerusalem: Yesterday Tomorrow Today
One third of Israeli Jews want Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem, poll finds - National - Israel News | Haaretz

"The last few years have seen changing attitudes to the Temple Mount among the national religious and ultra-Orthodox sectors. There are currently dozens of movements working to change the status quo at the holy site. Some are reconstructing ceremonial objects used in the Temple in the past, while others are making practical preparations for its rebuilding, including a renewal of animal sacrifice. Others deal in political lobbying and in encouraging Jews to visit the Mount." - Jul. 12, 2013

Christ's heavenly Kingdom also now is where he rules with heavenly glory.

Click to expand...

A statement that holds more power than the world realizes.

If you wanna see it plain as day, and per 2tim4:18, be delivered from any evil work, crank up every secular song out there and note how Jesus has hijacked the symbolism and spoken His own message from "heaven."
All things really were put in His hand.