Zionism

Messy

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Do you believe that the Jews have a right to the land in Israel based on the Bible?

Yes, but maybe Arabs can live there too. I saw Messianic jews and christian Arabs are praying together for real peace there. A lot of muslims in the Middle East get visions of Jesus now.
 
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FearlessHeart

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Yes, but maybe Arabs can live there too. I saw Messianic jews and christian Arabs are praying together for real peace there. A lot of muslims in the Middle East get visions of Jesus now.

Muslims claim to get visions of Jesus a lot. He is ingrained into Islam and I know Muslims who also believe in the second coming of Jesus.
 
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prov1810

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I do believe that the their return to Palestine is the fulfillment of a prophecy. However, I don't like some of the things they are doing. It is a complex situation, since the Arabs will always hate them, even if the Jews behave like saints.

I pretty much agree with this. But it's not like all members of any one group are hateful (and I know that's not what you meant.)

I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians and it seems like the plight of Palestinian Christians has been completely overlooked by Christian Zionists.

As a pre-mil dispy, my focus is on the millennium. It's one of my favorite words, really. Jesus ruling, here, in the world - glorious. The Knesset, not so much. Human governments aren't sacred.

(Luke 1:32) And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David. :clap:

(Rev. 22:20) Come, Lord Jesus. :prayer:
 
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Rhamiel

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I do not think that Jews who reject Jesus Christ are open to the promises given to Israel in the OT
in the OT we see that God punishes people, even Jewish people, when they rebel against Him.

the Christian Church is made up of those who are faithful to God, both Gentile and Jew, and operate as Gods "Chosen People"
 
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Messy

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KingCrimson250

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as far as I know, the Pontifical College Josephinum
(located in beautiful Columbus Ohio) has not made the switch either :p

Nor has Harvard, Notre Dame, Catholic, Yale, or any of the other most highly-rated seminaries in the US. A few schools like Dallas and Master's are dispensationalist, IIRC, but, while respectable, they're still a long ways away from being in the list of top seminaries.


Not that this has anything to do with the validity of dispensationalism.
 
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Crypto

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Muslims claim to get visions of Jesus a lot. He is ingrained into Islam and I know Muslims who also believe in the second coming of Jesus.

It is not our Jesus, though. According to Islam Jesus (whom they call Isa) will start and encourage the genocide of Christians in his second coming because, allegedly, we failed to keep his word. Also, that will happen after the complete genocide of the Jewish population at the hands of the Muslims.

" He (‘Isa) will destroy the Evil One and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die." (Sunan Abu Dawud, 37:4310)

"‘The son of Mary ... will soon descend among you as a just judge. He will ... abolish the poll-tax, and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept charitable gifts." (Sahih Muslim 287) (abolishing the poll-tax, also called the jizya, means that there will be no truce for the Christians: they will be slaughtered wherever they are found)

The Muslims will never live in peace with the Jews (nor with anybody else), since hating them is deeply ingrained in their faith:

"Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him. " (Sahih Muslim 41:6981)
 
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Crypto

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I pretty much agree with this. But it's not like all members of any one group are hateful (and I know that's not what you meant.)

I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians and it seems like the plight of Palestinian Christians has been completely overlooked by Christian Zionists.

As a pre-mil dispy, my focus is on the millennium. It's one of my favorite words, really. Jesus ruling, here, in the world - glorious. The Knesset, not so much. Human governments aren't sacred.

(Luke 1:32) And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David. :clap:

(Rev. 22:20) Come, Lord Jesus. :prayer:

Yes, I agree with you. When I said "Arab" I meant to say "Muslim". It was a mistake.
 
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RealFaith

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How many people here are Christian Zionists?

By this I mean, do you believe that the promises that God makes to Israel in the Old Testament translate to the modern nation state of Israel that is now in the Middle East?

I know a lot of Christians who support Israel because it is a political ally of the USA and it is a democratic nation in an area that does not have very many democracies. That is not what this thread is about

I am more interested if you think that the modern nation state of Israel plays a role in End Time Prophecies and/or is the legitimate successor of the promises God made to the People of Israel in the OT

I support Israel fully. Here is a list of scriptures that deal with Israel in the end times and the Islamic enemies of Israel. Most Christians have probably never paid any attention to these verses:

THE LORD WILL FIGHT AGAINST THE NATIONS THAT BATTLE AGAINST JERUSALEM

"Behold, the day of the LORD is coming. And your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. (Zechariah 14:1-3)

"It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." (Zechariah 12:9)

DIVIDED LAND

"I will also gather all nations, and bring them to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; And I will enter into judgment with them there on account of My people, My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; They have also divided up My land." (Joel 3:2)

JUDGMENT ON ISRAEL'S ENEMIES

"And there shall no longer be a pricking brier or a painful thorn for the house of Israel from among all who are around them, who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Thus says the Lord GOD: When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and am hallowed in them in the sight of the Gentiles, then they will dwell in their own land which I gave to My servant Jacob. And they will dwell safely there, build houses, and plant vineyards; yes, they will dwell securely, when I execute judgments on all those around them who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the LORD their God." (Ezekiel 28:24-26)

EGYPT CONDEMNED AND CAST INTO THE PIT

"The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst." (Isaiah 19:1) "Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down to the depths of the earth, her and her daughters of the famous nations, with those who go down to the Pit." (Ezekiel 32:18).

JUDGMENT ON THE PHILISTINES

Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because the Philistines dealt vengefully and took vengeance with a spiteful heart, to destroy because of the old hatred, therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "I will stretch out My hand against the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethites and destroy the remnant of the seacoast. I will execute great vengeance on them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I lay My vengeance upon them." (Ezekiel 25:15-17)

ISRAEL'S ENEMIES

"For behold, Your enemies make a tumult; And those who hate You have lifted up their head. They have taken crafty counsel against Your people, and consulted together against Your sheltered ones. They have said, 'Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation, that the name of Israel may be remembered no more." (Psalm 83:2-4)

JUDGMENT ON EDOM (YEMEN TO SAUDI ARABIA)

"Who is this who comes from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah, this One who is glorious in His apparel, traveling in the greatness of His strength?--'I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.' Why is Your apparel red, and Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, and trampled them in My fury; their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, and I have stained all My robes. For the day of vengeance is in My heart, and the year of My redeemed has come." (Isaiah 63:1-4)

In Isaiah 63:1-4 we see the Messiah emerging out of Edom with His robes literally sprinkled with blood. He came the first time as a lamb to be a humble servant and to die as our sacrifice, but when He returns the second time He is coming as a mighty, conquering lion.

ARMAGEDDON AND LEBANON

In Psalm 29 we find a clear connection between the Battle of Armageddon and the nation of Lebanon: "The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars, Yes, the Lord splinters the cedars of Lebanon" (Psalms 29:5) Muslim Lebanon will be destroyed. But this passage is speaking about the Battle of Armageddon: "The voice of the Lord shakes the wilderness; The Lord shakes the wilderness of Kadesh." (Psalm 29:8) Kadesh is the valley of Megiddo "Har-Megiddo"--Armageddon: "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon" (Revelation 16:16). This is an End-Times event: "And in His temple everyone says, "Glory!"(v.9) "And the Lord sits as King forever."(v. 10).

MOAB (JORDAN) SHALL BE TRAMPLED DOWN

"And it will be said in that day: 'Behold, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for Him; we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.' For on this mountain the hand of the LORD will rest, and Moab shall be trampled down under Him, as straw is trampled down for the refuse heap." (Isaiah 25:9-10)

EGYPT, SUDAN, LIBYA, TURKEY AND ARABIA WILL FALL BY THE SWORD

"Cush and Put, Lydia and all Arabia, Libya and the people of the covenant land will fall by the sword along with Egypt" (Ezekiel 30:5). Put or Phut is a reference to North Africa and includes the regions west of Egypt. Lydia was a central western region of Turkey. They will all be destroyed along with the Antichrist. These nations are in "league" or in "covenant" and allied with the Antichrist.

SYRIA, IRAQ, IRAN, AND TURKEY WILL FALL BY THE SWORD

"Assyria is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword: Whose graves are set in the sides of the pit, and her company is round about her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which caused terror in the land of the living" (Ezekiel 32:22-23). Assyria and "all her company" could include several Middle Eastern nations including Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Turkey as well as Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. They will all be cast into the pit.

JORDAN, SAUDI ARABIA WILL GO DOWN TO THE PIT

"There is Edom, her kings, and all her princes, which with their might are laid by them that were slain by the sword: they shall lie with the uncircumcised, and with them that go down to the pit" (Ezekiel 32:29) In the strict sense, Edom is comprised of the southern parts of Jordan but here the text states "her kings" (plural). This encompasses Arabia. In many passages, Edom has come to represent the greater portion of the enemies of Israel that live to her south and east.

TURKEY, LEBANON WILL GO DOWN TO THE PIT

"There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Sidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit (Ezekiel 32:30). All the "princes of the North" refers to Turkey and her allies. And Sidon once again refers to Lebanon. They are both cast "down to the pit."

TURKEY AND THE TURKIC NATIONS SOUTH OF RUSSIA WILL GO DOWN TO THE PIT

The Turkic Nations include nations such as Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan: "There is Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword, though they caused their terror in the land of the living. And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the might in the land of the living." (Ezekiel 32:26-27)

TYRE, SIDON, AND PHILISTIA CONDEMNED

"Indeed, what have you to do with Me, O Tyre and Sidon, and all the coasts of Philistia? Will you retaliate against Me? But if you retaliate against Me, swiftly and speedily I will return your retaliation upon your own head." (Joel 3:4)

A WARNING TO THE ENEMIES OF MOUNT ZION

"It shall even be as when a hungry man dreams, and look--he eats, but he awakes, and his soul is still empty; or as when a thirsty man dreams, and look--he drinks; but he awakes, and indeed he is faint, and his soul still craves: so the multitude of all the nations shall be, who fights against Mount Zion." (Isaiah 29:8)

LEBANON WILL FALL

"He will cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, and Lebanon will fall by the Mighty One." (Isaiah 10:34)

THE LORD WILL FIGHT FOR MOUNT ZION

For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof. As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it. (Isaiah 31:4-5)

ISRAEL BELONGS TO THE JEWS

"I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers." (Ezekiel 20:41-42)
 
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prov1810

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Anti-Zionists deny that Israel is a country. They regard it as an illegitimate country.

There are some Zionists who regard contemporary Israel as more than a country. It's a sacred entity that can't be criticized.

The Jewish people have a right to their homeland: a state in Israel/Palestine. But how can they obtain all the land that God has promised them? Can they just take it? That's not how it was in the Biblical conquest. They had to wait centuries until the current inhabitants lost their right to dwell there. The conquest was a judgment on the wickedness of Canaanite culture. It was a judgment that would be repeated on the Jews themselves in the Exile.

There is no way that Israel can take all of the land that God has promised them because this involves never-ending conflict. God has seen to it that only the Messiah can restore David's kingdom.
 
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Rhamiel

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Anti-Zionists deny that Israel is a country. They regard it as an illegitimate country.

There are some Zionists who regard contemporary Israel as more than a country. It's a sacred entity that can't be criticized.

The Jewish people have a right to their homeland: a state in Israel/Palestine. But how can they obtain all the land that God has promised them? Can they just take it? That's not how it was in the Biblical conquest. They had to wait centuries until the current inhabitants lost their right to dwell there. The conquest was a judgment on the wickedness of Canaanite culture. It was a judgment that would be repeated on the Jews themselves in the Exile.

There is no way that Israel can take all of the land that God has promised them because this involves never-ending conflict. God has seen to it that only the Messiah can restore David's kingdom.

I do not think that Israel is illegitimate
it is as legitimate as Canada or Brazil or the UK or Jordan

I do not equate the modern nation state of Israel with the ancient kingdom of Israel
IF I viewed modern Israel as biblical Israel then I would say that it was illegitimate, because Christ is King, a king of the line of David, and the Jews in Israel are in open rebellion agianst their King
in the Bible, in the OT, what is the punishment for those who rebel agianst their King?
Israel has as much right to exist as any other Nation-State

spiritual Israel are those who follow Christ the King
spiritual Israel are the jews and gentiles who have joined the Church
these are the people of God
 
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prov1810

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IF I viewed modern Israel as biblical Israel then I would say that it was illegitimate, because Christ is King, a king of the line of David, and the Jews in Israel are in open rebellion agianst their King
God has made earthly promises to Israel and He will keep them, because He is faithful to Himself and He does not change.
 
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KingCrimson250

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Anyway, to answer the title question, I'm pretty anti-Zionist. As far as I'm concerned, Zionism is a bunch of white dudes offering band-aid solutions because they feel guilty about the Holocaust.


No offense to you Americans out there, but I think it also speaks to the US's prevalent "spiritual manifest destiny" attitude: "Why do we support Israel? Because it's God's will that they return to their Promised Land! How do we know that it's God's will? Because we support it!"
 
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Going Merry

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How many people here are Christian Zionists?

By this I mean, do you believe that the promises that God makes to Israel in the Old Testament translate to the modern nation state of Israel that is now in the Middle East?

I know a lot of Christians who support Israel because it is a political ally of the USA and it is a democratic nation in an area that does not have very many democracies. That is not what this thread is about

I am more interested if you think that the modern nation state of Israel plays a role in End Time Prophecies and/or is the legitimate successor of the promises God made to the People of Israel in the OT

A promise is a promise, and it will come to pass in one way or the other.
 
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Going Merry

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I do not think that Israel is illegitimate
it is as legitimate as Canada or Brazil or the UK or Jordan

I do not equate the modern nation state of Israel with the ancient kingdom of Israel
IF I viewed modern Israel as biblical Israel then I would say that it was illegitimate, because Christ is King, a king of the line of David, and the Jews in Israel are in open rebellion agianst their King
in the Bible, in the OT, what is the punishment for those who rebel agianst their King?
Israel has as much right to exist as any other Nation-State

spiritual Israel are those who follow Christ the King
spiritual Israel are the jews and gentiles who have joined the Church
these are the people of God

Not to mention they all pray for forgiveness of their sins instead of sacrifice properly for their sins. If they were real jews they would sacrifice. Praying for forgiveness can never wipe away a sin. I consider them illegitimate Jews since all their sin remains and they turned into mystics. spiritual jews are those who have a sacrifice (jesus) . never the less the promise is to the nation of Israel (not jews) but to israel it self. Which has manifested as a country again.
 
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