Considering Lutheranism

Christi crux said:

Hi everyone.
I'd like to ask afew questions if I may.

I'm from a Non-christian background but have interested in religion since childhood and now at the age of 29 Im giving serious through to actually joining a Faith. I have explored many faiths, Islam, Judaism, Religious Daoism, Mahayana Buddhism and various form of Christianity: Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Baptist, Anglican (high and low), Evangelical etc

Basically I've done the rounds and other than Baptists and Islam (as I could tell str8 away they were not for me) I've spent at least 6 months on and off going to each of these religions services, and studying about them and asking questions about them from priests, monks, nuns etc, so I know a fair abit about them.

however the faith I'm by far most interested in is Lutheranism.

I would consider myself (if I choose to get baptized) as a Sacramental Protestant or reformed Catholic. however I do have some questions and concerns.

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Welcome to Christian Forums, and welcome to our Lutheran Forum.

Question wise:
1. Do Lutherans make the sign of the Cross? (it seems some do and some don't and Im confused as when its appropriate to do it)

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Some do, (I do), many do not; that is your choice. In our Lutheran Service Book, the Liturgy is marked with small red crosses denoting appropriate places where the sign of the Cross may be made. In our old service book, there was a section entitled General Rubrics which stated where it was appropriate.

2. Lutherans like Catholics and Orthodox make use of the Crucifix. is it also ok for Lutherans to have paintings and Icons of the Blessed Virgin and the Christ Child?

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Indeed it is, many of our Churches have them and statues of our Lord, Apostles and Saints as well.

3. in Lutheranism is there any room for asking the intercession of the saints?

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Since Scripture is clear that there is only one mediator, Christ, no. Scripture also tells us that the saints do pray for us, but asking them to do so would be bypassing Christ.

4. does an ordained Pastor have to the celebrant of the Holy Communion? or in extreme circumstances can a layman/woman make the sacrament present?

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While I can not speak for all Synods, as far as I know, only ordained Clergy may celebrate the Eucharist and absolve sin.

5. what is the stance of the acceptance of gays and lesbians within the various national Lutheran Churches outside of the US? (I know what the ELCA, LCMS, WELS etc believe) being gay myself I of course hold that it is not a sin, I know there are many here who may disagree but lets not try to change each other opinions cause I would rather keep this discussion civil.
6. what various churches outside of the US believe in the ordination of women?

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Synods which are in fellowship with either LCMS/LCC or WELS will neither ordain women or non celibate homosexuals, neither do they accept the legitimacy of same sex unions.

Synods in fellowship with the ELCA/ELCIC generally do.

thanks guys

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You are most welcome!

I hope this helps. BTW which countries are you interested in?

Hey there, and welcome to the Lutheran forums! Very glad to have you here!

I see your questions were perhaps already answered by the first reply to your thread, but I thought I'd answer them too, if that is ok lol.

Ok, here we go!

1. Many Lutherans do, and I myself do. But it varies from Lutheran to Lutheran. It is certainly not a requirement. The sign of the cross just helps us to remember our baptism, the cross (of course), and God Himself (since we say "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost").

2. It is ok to have icons, in my opinion. They are beautiful pieces of artwork! BUT, and this is where Lutherans differ from the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches, we do NOT pray to the icons and the saint they depict. We believe all prayer and adoration is to be directed to the Trinity, not an angel, saint, or what have you. Oh, and we also make use of the crucifix too.

3. No, Lutherans do not pray to any angel or any saint, including Mary. My believe behind this is that if Mary or any of the saints could hear the millions upon millions of prayers directed towards them they would have certain characteristics that belong only to God. Since they aren't God, they can't have those characteristics (the ability to hear all these prayers, silent prayers, etc).

4. Here in the LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod) only ordained pastors can celebrate the eucharist and absolve sin. I believe it is the same in the other Lutheran synods as well. While Lutherans do not believe in a sacrificial priesthood as Roman Catholics and Orthodox do, we DO believe that certain men are called apart by God to serve a church body. I think its a wholly Biblical idea!

5. The LCMS and WELS do not ordain practicing homosexuals, but the ELCA does. We believe that the Bible is quite clear on this issue and that is where we stand. The ELCA, of course, disagrees.


Hope that answered your questions! Before you really dig deeper into Lutheran theology, I would direct you to read the new testament of the Bible so that you can meet the Lord Jesus Christ for yourself. Learn of His love, mercy, and forgiveness. Learn of what He did for you and how you can be saved by faith in His name! Jesus will change your entire life if you allow Him to do so.

God bless you and be with you! Feel free to message any of us on here with other questions. I, for one, would be happy to talk to you.

Christi crux said:

Thank you to both of you who have replied to my message.

<snip>

Sadly I believe the Lutheran Church of Australia does not as yet have a positive attitude about homosexuals.

<snip>

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Lutheran Church Canada is in full fellowship with the Lutheran Church in Australia, and we have a very close relationship with them.

You are correct that they have retained the orthodox views of sexual orientation and ordination revealed in Scripture.

It is not my place to judge or criticize any one. I think it may be helpful if you spoke with a Pastor and, with an open mind, did a bit more research into not only what we teach and believe, but why we teach and believe what we do.

God's blessing to you in your journey.

Christi crux said:

Question wise:
1. Do Lutherans make the sign of the Cross? (it seems some do and some don't and Im confused as when its appropriate to do it)
2. Lutherans like Catholics and Orthodox make use of the Crucifix. is it also ok for Lutherans to have paintings and Icons of the Blessed Virgin and the Christ Child?
3. in Lutheranism is there any room for asking the intercession of the saints?
4. does an ordained Pastor have to the celebrant of the Holy Communion? or in extreme circumstances can a layman/woman make the sacrament present?
5. what is the stance of the acceptance of gays and lesbians within the various national Lutheran Churches outside of the US? (I know what the ELCA, LCMS, WELS etc believe) being gay myself I of course hold that it is not a sin, I know there are many here who may disagree but lets not try to change each other opinions cause I would rather keep this discussion civil.
6. what various churches outside of the US believe in the ordination of women?


thanks guys

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Welcome to TCL,
my first thought by the way is in Lutheranism faith ultimately is a gift, not a choice. Coming to it, no matter the process, is ultimately the gathering work of the Holy Spirit, and receiving faith is from God's good grace to give you at some point a preacher (lay or ordained) to proclaim the gospel. Now to your questions:
1) Many Lutherans make the sign of the cross. It is not a universal practice, but one that is permissible. It is primarily to recall our baptism. Thus the most common place this happens is whenever the Trinitarian formulation is spoken (whenever someone says "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"). Other common times are entering a sanctuary (especially if one passes the font, they may dip their hand in the font before crossing themselves), at the blessing, at the benedictus in Matins, at the conclusion of the creed, whenever a blessing is offered, at the words "blessed is He who comes..." in the sanctus, when absolution is given, or when coming to communion. It varies from person to person, but these and other times are all places some Lutherans may make the sign of the cross. Because it is not a uniform practice and there is no firm teaching as to when to do it, that would be why it seems unclear.
2) Yes, Lutherans can have paintings, icons, stain glass windows, etc. I would say they are treated differently, not with the same "reverence" as our Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters.
3) In Lutheranism there is no need for intercession of saints. Might they be praying for us? Perhaps, but we do not know nor do we need them to. Their prayers are of no more merit than ours and of the living, and most important they are not our mediators, Christ is. If the dead pray let them, but do not trust in it or turn to them, instead turn to Christ.
4) Communion is done in the public worship setting, and thus is part of the public office of ministry (ordained). Were a lay person to preside it would still be communion because of Christ's word, but that does not mean we should simply let lay persons preside. Because communion is not seen as a necessary sacrament in the way Baptism is, there is not really a notion of emergency circumstances. Lutherans do allow both baptism and absolution in private/emergency circumstances to the un-ordained. If the role/authority of laity is important, the Lutheran teaching on the priesthood of all believers may be an area of interest for you to look into as well.
5) I'm not familiar with churches' outside the US stances on this issue. I would imagine the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada and perhaps the Lutheran churches in Sweden, Finland, etc. might be more open to homosexuals, particularly in terms of members not clergy.
6) The Lutheran World Federation might be a good place to start with this question. I know there are many across the globe that do ordain women, I am honestly just not sure off of the top of my head. The church in Norway I know does.

Hope those help, may God's grace and peace come to you and take hold of you in this time of the Spirit's sowing.

Hello and welcome!

I'll answer as "a European Lutheran" and member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland.

1. Do Lutherans make the sign of the Cross?

I'll comp other posters here: some do, others don't. It's a personal choice. There is no pressure either way.

2. Lutherans like Catholics and Orthodox make use of the Crucifix. is it also ok for Lutherans to have paintings and Icons of the Blessed Virgin and the Christ Child?

Again, I'll comp others and say such icons are okay. I have the Icon of the Holy Family. Lutherans treat them as religious art and pictorial Bibles, if you will, depicting scenes from the Bible.

3. in Lutheranism is there any room for asking the intercession of the saints?

No. We have our Lord Jesus Christ.

4. does an ordained Pastor have to the celebrant of the Holy Communion? or in extreme circumstances can a layman/woman make the sacrament present?

Ordained pastor only, although Lutherans believe that the validity of the sacrament itself does not depend on our own worthiness or the Pastor's worthiness.

5. what is the stance of the acceptance of gays and lesbians within the various national Lutheran Churches outside of the US? (I know what the ELCA, LCMS, WELS etc believe) being gay myself I of course hold that it is not a sin, I know there are many here who may disagree but lets not try to change each other opinions cause I would rather keep this discussion civil.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland believes that marriage is a union between one man, one woman, and God, and that sex and lust outside marriage is a sin. The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland recognizes that we are sinners all, every single one of us, and especially weak when it comes to the sins of the flesh, and that the church exists for its sinning baptized and confirmed members. In that respect, the sins of the flesh of the gays and lesbians are no "worse" than the sins of the flesh of heterosexuals. A married man lusting secretly in his heart after his female collegue or lusting after his male colleague, no difference.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland does not marry same-sex couples. Individual pastors may, according to their conscience, prey on behalf of a cohabiting couple and/or bless their home, regardless of the couples respective genders. A pastor is also free to decline, because the ELCF preference is marriage, even though its members are weak and failing.

6. what various churches outside of the US believe in the ordination of women?

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland recognizes only one set of ordained offices: parish pastor, chaplain, and vicar. There is no seperate office of the "female pastor", or office of the "male pastor". The requirements for the pastor's office are a Master's degree in theology, Pastoral degree of the church, vocatio interna and vocatio externa. Therefore, no one has a subjective right to be ordained for the office of the pastor but has to be called for and invited by a parish.

The church and its offices exist to ensure that the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered, and that is enough. It is not necessary that human traditions and different church structures around the world instituted by men should be everywhere alike. After all, our Lord Jesus Christ did not come to set up a church with a list of things how this worldy institution should organize itself, regarding elections, eligibility, the perks and requirements of the various offices. He did not command that in bilingual countries such as ours, the requirement for the office of a pastor is a fluency in both native languages - that is entirely evolving human tradition, as is the current requirement of the degree in theology. The apostles did well without an academic degree.

Since the Catholic times, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has gradually opened up the office of a pastor. For centuries, a person's birth and family background and wealth were deciding factor who qualified for the office: a man with low birth and no wealth and no noble title was considered not only ineligible but unfit and unworthy of the office and to serve God and the congregation. Gradually, it was recognized that all men are equal before God regardless of the lottery of birth and that vocatio interna and the commitment to and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ is open to all, regardless of their external circumstances. Our salvation does not depend on the office of the pastor or the gender of the pastor, any more more than it depends on the personal character and righteousness of the pastor breaching the Word and administering the Sacraments. Lutherans do not believe that any of our fellow sinners can have the keys to our salvation. It's faith alone.

Kalevalatar

There seems to be a difference among posters with regard to saints. I too want to learn more about how Lutherans treat the early church fathers and mothers, and the "saints" of the church.

I wanted to add that Episcopalians, Orthodox and Catholics should NOT be praying TO saints. They have special reverence for those who have come before. And yes, they/we ask the saints (or a particular) saint to pray for us. We tend not to see this as different from asking my church or prayer group to pray for me.

I understand that this practice has been abused and misunderstood by many.

mark1 said:

And yes, they/we ask the saints (or a particular) saint to pray for us. We tend not to see this as different from asking my church or prayer group to pray for me.

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The problem is the mode of communication. If you ask an individual or a prayer group to pray for you, you do so by speaking words to them. In order to communicate with the dead, it would require a mode of communication that is reserved for God alone. I have seen countless Roman Catholics make the sign of the cross, invoke the Name of the Trinity, and then say "Dear Saint Mary..." or whatever saint they are "asking". That is prayer and prayer is reserved for communicating with God alone.

Thank you for the explanation.

I suspect that this difference turns on the understanding of the meaning and praxis regarding the doctrine of the "communion of saints".

DaRev said:

The problem is the mode of communication. If you ask an individual or a prayer group to pray for you, you do so by speaking words to them. In order to communicate with the dead, it would require a mode of communication that is reserved for God alone. I have seen countless Roman Catholics make the sign of the cross, invoke the Name of the Trinity, and then say "Dear Saint Mary..." or whatever saint they are "asking". That is prayer and prayer is reserved for communicating with God alone.

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All true Christians are saints.

with praying to saints prayer really means 'to ask" the protestant mindset of prayer is worship when really it is asking like in the cause of being in court your lawyer will say "we pray the judge will" no where in the bible does it say not to ask other Christians to prayer for you. 1 tim 2:1-4

Of course. Some of us include those alive and in heaven (and those still to be born) when think of the communion of saints.

DaRev said:

All true Christians are saints.

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fireof god98 said:

with praying to saints prayer really means 'to ask" the protestant mindset of prayer is worship when really it is asking like in the cause of being in court your lawyer will say "we pray the judge will" no where in the bible does it say not to ask other Christians to prayer for you. 1 tim 2:1-4

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But the Bible does say that we are not to pray to any one other than God. It has to do with the mode of communication. When one says "we pray the judge will", they are not talking about the same mode of communication used when praying to God. This is the Lutheran teaching.

I am aware of Lutheran teaching but who says Lutheran teaching is truth? the bible says not to worship anyone but god not talk to. all Christian are supposed to pray for each other that includes the saints in heaven who are close to god who are without sin(now that they are in heaven) and don't have a care in the world unlike us people here on the earth.

fireof god98 said:

I am aware of Lutheran teaching but who says Lutheran teaching is truth? the bible says not to worship anyone but god not talk to. all Christian are supposed to pray for each other that includes the saints in heaven who are close to god who are without sin(now that they are in heaven) and don't have a care in the world unlike us people here on the earth.

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Well said.

I am very happy that Lutherans still carry the same respect to our adored saints, we can only pray to be half of what they are...

fireof god98 said:

I am aware of Lutheran teaching but who says Lutheran teaching is truth? the bible says not to worship anyone but god not talk to. all Christian are supposed to pray for each other that includes the saints in heaven who are close to god who are without sin(now that they are in heaven) and don't have a care in the world unlike us people here on the earth.

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Confessional Lutheran teaching is truth, not because it is Lutheran, but because true Lutheran beliefs are Biblical. We may use the name of a mere man (Martin Luther) but we don't believe in "his" own teachings, we believe in the Bible's teaching and Luther has explained the Bible's teachings very well.

that is a true statement but some Lutherans when asked about a doctrine would replied with "I need to see what martin Luther says about that" I have a feeling Luther would not like that statement one bit.

fireof god98 said:

that is a true statement but some Lutherans when asked about a doctrine would replied with "I need to see what martin Luther says about that" I have a feeling Luther would not like that statement one bit.

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Every single Lutheran I know would ask what the scriptures say over Luther any day.

I'm not sure why you carry a Lutheran icon if you don't feel that Lutherans are correct in their beliefs as you stated above????? You should really go talk to your pastor!