When a person is killed, do they go to Heaven?

zeke37 said:

...here's what Paul says

1Thes3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1Ths4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

...

they are NOT literally sleeping, unconscious
only figuratively...."sleep" is simply a nice way of saying "dead" (in the flesh)

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This is not so, since vs 14 reveals something totally different.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

Look at the words "bring with", and the subject of them. Where will those that "sleep in Jesus" [notice not "awake" yet, not resurrected] will God "bring" them to with Him [Jesus]? It is not from Heaven to Earth, but from the Earth to Heaven...

...Jesus is coming to get those that sleep in Him... that He make take them with Him to where He is...

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:2

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. John 14:3

...if they were already with Jesus in Heaven [as incorporeal men-shades, bodyless non-things]...what is Jesus here saying? Jesus ascended to Heaven with "flesh and bones" [Luke 24:39] to a very real "place".

This text is clear, especially in its context [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18], and in the Greek itself. Jesus is not bringing “them also which sleep in Jesus” at His second coming 'to' the earth at His Second Coming, no indeed. For this text reveals in context, that “the dead” in Christ Jesus, “them which sleep”, are in their graves, having returned unto dust, awaiting their resurrection “at his appearing”, and so even these in their resurrection at “that day” [2 Timothy 4:8], along with the living saints, shall be “caught up together” [not individually as they die, or in separate groups between divisions of time], and so God shall bring even all these “together” “with him” [Jesus] back into Heaven [3rd; Paradise; where the Throne of God is], having been “caught up” “into the clouds”[many angels sent to gather them], even “into the air” and so “we shall ever be with the Lord”.

Please see the texts on the various resurrections and state of death:

A: [sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40

B: [knowing nothing] Genesis 27:4, 45:28; Ruth 1:17; Job 3:17-19, 7:8-10, 14:21, 21:32; 2 Kings 22:20; 2 Chronicles 34:28; Psalms 6:5, 28:1, 31:17, 88:4,10,11, 115:17, 143:7, 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:4,5,6,10; Isaiah 14:11, 38:18; [reserved] 2 Peter 2:9; [He goes to prepare a place, so that when He comes again, 2nd Advent, He will raise us and receive us] John 14:2-3

C: [grave, sepulchre, tomb, pit, hell [ie Hb: sheol; Gr: hades; grave]] Genesis 23:6, 35:20, 37:35, 44:29,31, 50:5; Exodus 14:11; Numbers 16:30, 19:16,18; Deuteronomy 34:6; Judges 8:32, 1 Samuel 2:6, 10:2; 2 Samuel 3:32, 4:10, 17:23, 19:37, 21:14, 22:6; 1 Kings 2:6,9, 13:22,30,31, 14:13; 2 Kings 9:28, 13:21, 21:26, 22:20, 23:6,16,17,30; 2 Chronicles 16:14, 21:20, 24:25, 28:27, 32:33, 34:4,28, 35:24; Nehemiah 2:3,5, 3:16; Job 3:17-19,22, 5:26, 7:8-10, 10:19, 11:8, 14:12-14,21, 17:1,13,16, 21:13,23-32, 24:19, 26:6, 30:24, 33:22; Psalms 5:9, 6:5, 18:5, 28:1, 30:3, 31:17, 35:7, 49:14,15, 55:15, 86:13, 88:3,4,5-12, 89:48, 94:13, 115:17, 116:3, 139:8, 141:7, 143:7; Proverbs 1:12, 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11,24, 23:14, 27:20, 30:16; Ecclesiastes 6:6, 9:10; Song of Songs [Solomon] 8:6; Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,11,15,19, 22:16, 28:15,18, 38:10,18, 53:9, 57:9, 65:4; Jeremiah 5:16, 8:1, 26:23, 20:17; Ezekiel 26:20, 31:15-17, 32:18,21-27, 37:12,13, 39:11; Hosea 13:14; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2 [<- figurative, typological]; Nahum 1:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Matthew 8:8, 11:23, 23:27,29, 27:52,53,60,61,64,66, 28:8; Mark 5:2,3,5, 6:29, 15:46, 16:2,3,5,8; Luke 8:27, 10:15, 11:47,48, 23:53,55, 24:1,2,9,12,22,24; John 5:28, 11:31,38, 12:17, 19:41,42, 20:1-4,6,8,11; Acts 2:29,34, 7:16, 13:29,36; Romans 3:13; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 1:18, 11:9, 20:13,14

D: [resurrection] 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 14:12-14, 19:26; Psalms 16:10; Hosea 13:14; Matthew 22:23,28,30,31, 27:52,53 [special firstfruits resurrection; see also Ephesians 4:8]; Mark 12:18,23,25; Luke 14:14, 20:27,33,35,36; John 5:29, 6:25,28,29,39,40,44,54, 11:24,25; Acts 2:27,31, 4:2,33, 17:31,32, 23:6,8, 24:15,21; Romans 1:4, 6:5,8; 1 Corinthians 15:12,13,16,20,21,23,29,32,35,42,43,52-55; Ephesians 1:20, 4:8 [special firstfruits resurrection; see also Matthew 27:52,53]; Philippians 3:10,11; Colossians 3:3; 2 Timothy 2:18, 4:1; Hebrews 6:2, 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3, 3:21; Jude 1:9 [Moses resurrection; combine with Matthew 17; Mark 9; Luke 9; 2 Peter 1:16; Romans 5:14]; Revelation 1:5,18, 20:5,6,13; [translations] - Enoch [Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5]; Elijah [2 Kings 2:1,11; Matthew 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30,31] and some at Jesus's 2nd Advent/Coming [1 Thessalonians 4:13-17]; other special resurrections that took place - Elijah raises the Widow of Zarephath's [1 Kings 17:17-24]; Elijah raises the son of the Shunamite Woman [2 Kings 4:18-37]; A man and Elisha's Bones [2 Kings 13:20-21]; The Valley of Bones, the Resurrected Army [Ezekiel 37:1-14]; Jesus raises the Widow of Nain's Son [Luke 7:11-17]; Jesus raises Jairus's Daughter [Matthew 9:18,19,23-26; Mark 5:22-24,35-43; Luke 8:41-42,49-56]; Jesus raises Lazarus [John 11:[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]1-47]; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Peter raises Tabitha [Dorcas][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [Acts 9:36-42]; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Paul raises Eutychus[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [Acts 20:9-12]; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Paul himself may have been raised, or at least miraculously healed from stoning [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][Acts 14:19-20]; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]a special resurrection that will take place before the Great First Resurrection of the Righteous[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Daniel 12:2,12; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]]; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Jesus' Resurrection[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [[/FONT]Matthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-20; Luke 24:1-53; John 20:1-31]

E: [a special resurrection, some righteous, some wicked - to witness Christ coming in Power in Glory to fulfill His Word] Daniel 12:1-3,12; Matthew 26:64; [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13[/FONT]

F: [[first great] resurrection [of the saints, just, life, before/at start of the 1000 years when Christ Jesus returns in Power and Glory], raised] 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 14:12-14, 19:26; Hosea 13:14; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18,23,25; Luke 14:14, 20:35,36; John 5:29a, 6:25,28,29,39,40,44,54, 11:24,25; Acts 4:2, 17:31,32, 23:6, 24:15a,21; Romans 6:5,8, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:12,13,16,20,21,23,29,32,35,42,43,52-55; Philippians 3:10,11; Colossians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Timothy 2:18, 4:1; Hebrews 6:2, 11:35; Revelation 20:5b,6; [All the Holy "Clouds" of Angels [the "reapers"] with Him, the "saints" coming with Him] Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7

G: [2nd Advent/Coming in Power and Glory, with all the holy angels, even unto the 3rd] Zechariah 14:1-7 [3rd]; Daniel 2:35,44,45, 7:14,22,27, 8:25, 12:1-3; Matthew 19:28, 24:30, 25:31; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:27; 1 Corinthians 15:43; 2 Thessalonians 1:9

H: [[second great] resurrection [of the wicked, unjust, damnation, at the end/close of the 1000 years, when Christ Jesus and all of the Saints [then immortal] descend to Earth in New Jerusalem upon the Mount of Olives, and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place; Zechariah 14; Revelation 20]] John 5:29b; Acts 17:31, 24:15b; Revelation 20:5a

zeke37 said:

...Rev12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death....

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For a proper understanding of the structure of Revelation 12, please see the following link:

JESUS In Book Of Daniel - The Biblical TRUTH

...and as for the "brethren" portion, we have become part of the Family of Heaven...

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Romans 8:15

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6

...and therefore those which are sinless in heaven, are our brethren, angels and unfallen beings, as they are children of their Heavenly Father, so we [Matthew 5:45; Ephesians 4:6] and thus are "brethren" ["...all ye are brethren." Matthew 23:8], even being part of the "one fold, [and] one shepherd" of all His, for He had left the 99 above to come and seek and save the 1 [us, this world, which was lost]...

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: Revelation 1:1

"...of the angel which shewed me these things..." [Revelation 22:28]

"...I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets..." [Revelation 22:9]

There are no dead in Heaven, only living...

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:32

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. Mark 12:27

...and those which are "dead in Christ" are "alive unto Him", thus sleepeth here on/in the earth...knowing nothing, returned unto Dust [Gen 3:19; Psalms 104:29], awaiting for Him to call them up and to awake.

George95 said:

My mother believes this, and I wanted to hear everyone's thoughts.

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Only if they were saved before they died. Manner of death is irrelevant.

George95 said:

My mother believes this, and I wanted to hear everyone's thoughts.

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Only Christ knows whether or not one will be saved upon death. We have no clue what a person might be thinking at the moment of their death. Scripture tells us that the dead in Christ shall rise when he returns. That means that we are in our grave - dust to dust - until he comes again to take us home or to leave us.

How can we possibly begin to know the mind of God and the mind of another who God is working on their hearts?

Leuko Petra said:

Let us consider one point at a time. Revelation 5:3 actually says "no one in Heaven", and does not use the greek word "anthropos" which means "man",

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Strong Number[G3762]
Transliterated: oudeis
Phonetic: oo-dice'

Text: including feminine oudemia {oo-dem-ee'-ah}; and neuter ouden {oo-den'}; from H3761 and H1520; not even one (man, woman or thing), i.e. none, nobody, nothing:
KJV --any (man), aught, man, neither any (thing), never (man), no (man), none (+ of these things), not (any, at all, -thing), nought.

this implies humans

However, there is no real issue here, except that the text in the greek includes more than "men" [anthropos, humans] in its meaning, and includes all beings in Heaven, whether angelic [Gabriel, Cherub, Cherubim, Seraphims, 4 Living Creatures, hosts of angels] or beings from the unfallen worlds [24 Elders, etc], and it would also include those "men" [human, anthropos] that are there, such as Enoch, Elijah, Moses and the "fristfruits" that were resurrected and taken by Jesus [are the only humans, at the moment, that are in Heaven].

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says who? a line or two of misunderstood scripture?
David is in heaven...just not where Jesus is (right hand, throne of God)
every one that has died is currently in heaven
consciously waiting, either in a good waiting place or a not so good Waiting place

Rev puts ALL the future kings and priests into the 24 elders

However, none of those beings are incorporeal non-entities.

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HUH?
non-entities?
why would u assume that the spirits of the dead are non-entities?
aren't angels and elders entities?

A resurrected person such as Moses or the "firstfruits" were glorified, as we see in the New Testament, and Enoch and Elijah never died. Each have glorified bodies ["flesh and bones" [Luke 24:39], as in the resurrection "are as the angels of God in heaven" [Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25]], even as does Jesus who ascended to a "place" [John 14:1-3].

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i think u badly misunderstand a few basic things
about the Resurrection, Moses, Elijah and Enoch

ALL the dead are in heaven

The Firstfruits were Raised in the flesh, as others in the bible were.
but they have not been Resurrected at the last day, YET,
even if already presented to the Father

they were prob recently dead Christian Jews
who were raised in the flesh as a testimony
and they went into town and told everyone
they prob died in the course of time,
as the others who were raised would have,
and they are waiting in heaven for the Resurrection at the last day

Elijah and Enoch have not been Resurrected YET, even if taken by God
Moses may have been Raised in the flesh, after he was said to have died,
because no man knows where he is buried...
imo God took Him....so he's prob not buried at all, rather taken as Elijah/Enoch was

But the Resurrection spoken of happens at the last day
not any time before that

Moses and Elijah were seen transfigured
imo they were seen in their heavenly/spiritual body
that we ALL get at flesh death

Therefore notice that none of those in Heaven are dead/sleeping in the grave, but rather are alive and resurrected or translated and glorified. Those which are not resurrected are sleeping in their graves, seeing corruption, knowing nothing until their resurrection:

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lol.

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1 Thessalonians 4:13

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obv. its a nice way of saying dead.
the rest of the chapter tells us what happens.
the dead in Christ come with Him and are raised here.
John 6 and 11 says it's at the last day, not in stages

Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Acts 2:29

For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Acts 2:34

For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Acts 13:36

already explained that...sure, David sleeps from life on earth
but he's still in heaven with everyone else, waiting

Stephen also sleeps:

And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:60

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all do... you think he had a nap? he died.
if he died, then Ecc12 and 2Cor5 apply to him.

sleep is a figure of speech/hebraism
same with touch of Gen20:6...and many other examples.

Job says of the sleep and resurrection:

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12

O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:13

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again, same thing...not literal. Job is not still in the grave.
his dust is dust...ie his flesh body...THAT sleeps from life

but his spirit exists and is with the Lord now
not sleeping

Leuko Petra said:

The 24 Elders are not human, but are representatives of the unfallen worlds. This we will come back to, as it takes a further study of the scriptures to understand this. None of them have ever died.

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the bible says they are going to be kings and priests.
they represent all of us who overcome
Rev20:4 speaks of them (us) too

As for the song in the latter verse, the previous context [vs 8] declares that they [24 Elders] are in tune with the "prayers of the saints", seen in the "golden vials full of odours", and thus sing with them with their harps, not from experience as we will, but from as one which watched from the beginning. The Bible speaks of these things, these watchers, as well as the ancients before God's throne.

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while that may be true, or not,
you cannot get there from the verses we are discussing

all we know is THEY sing that song
and are going to be priests and kings on earth

The angels and the beings of the unfallen worlds will sing with us [those which are redeemed from the earth],

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unfallen worlds? where is that from?

angels are humans that have died, at least biblically.
they look like us, can touch, eat, speak, etc
and are even outright called our brethren of the prophets in Rev19 and 22

we are told that those worthy of the Resurrection shall be like the angels
because we will be the angels

but they cannot know the experience such as we do and will have. They never sinned.

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huh? have u never read about Satan and his angels?
trust me, they sinned

see Jude and Rev12, connect with Job1-2 and Gen6

They took part in another way, watching all these things, ministering to fallen man, etc, and being there since Lucifer fell, and the plan that God implemented in dealing with sin once and for all, even forever.

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we see things differently.
r u referencing Enoch or something?
irrelevant to our conversation anyway for many reasons

The very structure of Revelation must be taken into account when quoting from it, and Revelation 4, is even as Jesus ascends from the Mount of Olives, he is not arrived there yet, neither with his train of released captives "from death".. even before He brought the resurrected "firstfruits".

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wow do u ever misunderstand the Firstfruits imo

They and Jesus do not show up until Revelation 5. The very open Door [first veil] in Revelation 4, speaks of the door into the Holy Place... wherein is the Table of Shewbread, the Altar of Incense and the 7 Branch Candlestick. Jesus was still ascending at this point, see Psalms 24. Jesus did not begin His High Priestly Ministry in the Heaven Holy Place until Revelation 5 and 12, Acts 1-2, Psalms 133, etc.

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so? how does that speak against my point at all?
folks are in heaven...simple as that
they've been going there since folks have started to die

they could have died 1000 years before Jesus, and they still be there in Rev4

but again i see the entire chapter a little different than u

and when we die, we go to heaven (where ever God is) and wait
for the Resurrection at the last day
where Christ brings us from heaven to earth and RAISES us BACK here

Leuko Petra said:

Revelation 6, is spoken of in Symbolic terms, since it is dealing with the opening of the 7 Seals, all of which are given in symbolic terms. The "souls under the altar" are representative of those which died in the faith and are awaiting restitution and justice.

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yep...where are they? unde the altar
where is that altar where they are given white robes etc
and told to wait till their brethren are killed as they were?

where does Rev12 say they are? heaven.

Therefore, one must also understand the structure of Revelation here also, since the 7 Seals, Parallel [basically] the 7 Chruches and 7 Trumpets. Therefore when speaking of the 5th Seal, we are speaking of the timeframe of the 5th Church and the 5 Trumpet [but dealing with events under the previous churches/trumpets, see where many died in the previous seals, etc].

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well, i disagree. i've never heard that one before, but i disagree.

Notice what is said unto these:

"...that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled." Revelation 6:11

See that it speaks that they should "rest yet for a little season, until..." This speaks that they were to remain asleep in death in the grave on earth, until all the martyrs would be killed.

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ya and? their flesh is dead. their spirit is alive and conscious
and waits a little season

This is at the end of time, for notice that there are two groups, those already alseep in death and those what would come to be in the last moments of this earths history "...their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled."

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again, so what?
obv they are dead before those at the end,
specifically because they have to wait

After all those things, then they would all be resurrected..."at the last day".

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ya of course
they are dead in the flesh, but alive in heaven, waiting
your proving my point

For this rest is the "sleep" in the "bed" of the grave and death:

If I wait, the grave [is] mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. Job 17:13

They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when [our] rest together [is] in the dust. Job 17:16

Consider [and] hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the [sleep of] death; Psalms 13:3

Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. John 11:13

What then of their "speaking"?

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figure of speech...sleeping means flesh dead.

It is symbolically the voice of their "blood" that crieth out as Abels... for justice:

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. Hebrews 12:24

And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Genesis 4:10

Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. Matthew 10:26 [see also Mark 4:22; Luke 8:17, 12:2]

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absolutely

None of these martyrs which are in Revelation 6:9-11 are living in Heaven,

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u keep saying that....but why?

but are to remain in sleep until all martyrs are counted in and they come to their resurrection to come, see Revelation 20, etc which reveals that they [basically] will be raised at Jesus' coming, 2nd Advent.

It is symbolic, even as speaking that "stones" could "cry out"....

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so u are saying that they don't wait consciously, even tho they speak?
i'd say your wrong

Leuko Petra said:

That Angels, the 4 Living Creatures and the 24 Elders are in Heaven [none of whom have ever died]

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i disagree with you, but wont argue it to death

along with other living humans being taken there [through reusrrection or translation]

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what? taken where?
Resurrection is not to live in heaven...not to be raised there...nope

its the opposite,
to be brought from heaven and raised here on earth.
and if u are among those alive at the last day, u dont even have to wait
but rather are just changed to be like the just raised dead.

does not reveal that any which are dead are there.

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how else would they get there?
again, you misunderstand the Resurrection completely

The Dead are asleep on earth awaiting to be Awakened,

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well, their flesh bodies are decaying in the ground,
or lost at sea, or burnt up and blown by the wind,
or even actually used in the makeup of the currently living.
etc
etc

they wont be going anywhere or doing anything ever.

if believe otherwise, then again you misunderstand the bible's figures of speech
among other things, sorry to be so harsh

not ethereally floating around in heaven as some incorporeal [bodyless] gaseous non-entity... awaiting to be 'reunited' with a body... [explain to me what a person looks like without a body please...

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like the angels, with a heavenly body/spiritual body instead of a flesh one.
since biblical angels look like us, you have a perfect description

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52

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ya, RAISED HERE TO LIVE HERE

Again, we must come to the structure of Revelation itself. Revelation 7 deals with the Sealing of the Living Saints on earth, "the 144,000" that will remain alive at the 2nd Advent. iow not see death, but be translated [ie "not all sleep"; "...We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," 1 Corinthians 15:51, and therefore do not sleep and will not].

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yep

Therefore those events have not happened yet.

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i never said they did
but my point is that the latter half of Rev 7 is NOT the end (not the last day),
and folks are there in heaven.

First John "hears" the 'number' [see also Revelation 9:16, the only other place wher John "hears" a 'number'], and then he "sees" the great multitude...

Notice:

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? Revelation 7:13

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14

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even if i agreed that Rev7's latter half spoke of what happens to Christians
after a disaster that occurs at Rev9:16,
it's still not the end/last day

see Daniel 11:40(b)-45, 12:1-3, Revelation 13:14-17 and 17:11-18... Those events, which bring to close this earth's history, are just upon us.

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i agree. but the coming of those events means it is NOT the last day
and folks are in heaven all through Rev, clearly BEFORE the last day

Leuko Petra said:

This is not so, since vs 14 reveals something totally different.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

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Jesus is God, and He comes with His Saints

Look at the words "bring with", and the subject of them. Where will those that "sleep in Jesus" [notice not "awake" yet, not resurrected]

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of course not...
they are just about to be brought from heaven and raised here
ie. the Resurrection at the last day

will God "bring" them to with Him [Jesus]? It is not from Heaven to Earth, but from the Earth to Heaven...

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lol

...Jesus is coming to get those that sleep in Him... that He make take them with Him to where He is...

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dont you know He coming here forever?
see Zec14, Ez48

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

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many folks misinterpret Paul's words here

caught up...no UP in the greek manuscripts at all...it's simply seized

in the clouds...see Heb12:1, Rev1:7, Mat24:30, Mar13:26...mass multitude

in the air....well, the air is a synonym for spirit (pneuma).
those worthy of the Resurrection get THAT kind of body, not a flesh and blood one
hey, it's still just as physical (or can be) as this one is
but it's immortal/incorruptible instead

Paul is teaching them what he taught the Corinthians in ch 15
air is the trumpet blast/breath of life body...the "changed" body

In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:2

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. John 14:3

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all ya gotta do is keep reading the chapter.
sure, that place is prepared
but its not speaking of a physical location at all

getting right with God is only possible through Christ
Christ Himself is the place.

He goes to prepare a place...done
He comes HERE...last day...
He receives us to Him, where He is....HERE (He keeps repeating that He's COMING)

...if they were already with Jesus in Heaven [as incorporeal men-shades, bodyless non-things]...

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is that how you refer to His angel in Rev19 and 22?
John recognized that the angel had feet, didn't he?
why is it such a stretch to believe that we have both an angelic body and a flesh body?

when we are done with the earthly one, we get the heavenly one

what is Jesus here saying? Jesus ascended to Heaven with "flesh and bones" [Luke 24:39] to a very real "place".

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yep
but He's the ONLY ONE that did it bodily, Himself defeating death

This text is clear, especially in its context [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18], and in the Greek itself. Jesus is not bringing &#8220;them also which sleep in Jesus&#8221; at His second coming 'to' the earth at His Second Coming, no indeed.

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sure He is...
God is bringing the dead in Christ with Him at the Coming of the Lord
how else can it be read?

For this text reveals in context, that &#8220;the dead&#8221; in Christ Jesus, &#8220;them which sleep&#8221;, are in their graves, having returned unto dust, awaiting their resurrection &#8220;at his appearing&#8221;, and so even these in their resurrection at &#8220;that day&#8221; [2 Timothy 4:8], along with the living saints, shall be &#8220;caught up together&#8221; [not individually as they die, or in separate groups between divisions of time], and so God shall bring even all these &#8220;together&#8221; &#8220;with him&#8221; [Jesus] back into Heaven [3rd; Paradise; where the Throne of God is], having been &#8220;caught up&#8221; &#8220;into the clouds&#8221;[many angels sent to gather them], even &#8220;into the air&#8221; and so &#8220;we shall ever be with the Lord&#8221;.

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boy are u waaaaay off.
the seized together part happens HERE on earth
we remain here on earth

Please see the texts on the various resurrections and state of death:

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not under your direction
i have a good grasp on it now thx.

Leuko Petra said:

Those "saints" are the Angels... Jude 1:14

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ya and? those angels are the SAINTS

Let us look at some more texts, and compare scripture with scripture:

Compare to Galatians 3:19:

Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

Then to Deuteronomy 33:2:

And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them. Deuteronomy 33:2

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yep again....His Saints=angels...im fine with that
saints do not refer to angels apart from man.
they refer to men as angels.
the saints He comes with are men...
flesh dead sure, but angelically alive men

Also please compare to 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7:

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 1 Thessalonians 3:13

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2 Thessalonians 1:7

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you are proving my point...thx

Angels are also called saints [root word in Hebrew is qodesh &#1511;&#1465;&#1491;&#1462;&#1513;&#1473; meaning "holy" [ones] or "sacred" [ones] or "separated" [ones], or even "out-called" [ones]], hence the term "Holy Angels". Consider also Job 15:15.

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and?

We can also compare Zechariah 14:5:
And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee. Zechariah 14:5

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of course we can. i use it to prove your theory wrong
He's Coming with Saints

Who is coming back with Christ Jesus? All of the "Holy Angels":

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sure thing...they were men who are called Saints
men become angels. see Rev19/22

And CHRIST JESUS shall come in the "clouds of heaven" and Glory and be seen:

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clouds are not rainclouds...clouds are mass multitudes
see Heb12:1
the dead are in heaven and are to be brought here and raised here,
and that is the clouds of heaven that He comes with

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Matthew 26:64)

...which "Clouds" are the many innumerable "chariots" and "Angels" of Heaven [see Daniel 7:13; Isaiah 14:14; Psalms 104:3], the "reapers", which will all come with CHRIST JESUS:

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yes indeed....but people are among them/are them.
the Saints are us, the angels are us

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (Mark 13:27)

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there's no departure from earth, back to heaven mentioned, eh?

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

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see above...we dont go up or to heaven, then

Leuko Petra said:

...continued...
The only exceptions to those Holy Angels, that will be actual men who will come back with Him, are Enoch [who had been translated alive without seeing death], Moses [who died and was raised by Jesus], Elijah [who was caught up alive without seeing death] and those special ones [only a specific localized resurrection around Jerusalem, and not all] who were resurrected and taken back with Christ Jesus as Firstfruits of the anti-typical Wave Sheaf [Matthew 27:53; Psalms 68:18; Ephesians 4:8; etc], each one already actually having "flesh and bones", as has Christ Jesus when Resurrected and Ascended, and the rest are "all of the Holy Angels".

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i disagree with your theory for the already stated reasons

Again, the dead are not raised in general until the "last Day" -

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i agree.
we disagree on what being raised means
you think it means going to heaven from earth at the 2nd Coming
but it means coming to earth from heaven at the 2nd Coming

which is the "day of the Lord" [which is 1000 years long, being separated by the Great First [righteous] at the beginning and Second [wicked] Resurrections at the end of the 1000 years; Revelation 20, etc]

Scripture says that we are "caught up together" [1 Thessalonians 4:17]. Not individually as we die...

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ya and? when we die we immediately go to heaven
but that is not being RAISED at the Resurrection

folks existing in heaven does not mean they have been raised there
it means they have died in the flesh
and like all, go to heaven to wait till their respective Resurrection/judgement
at either the beginning or the end of that last day

...even as Paul says:

"Henceforth there is

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laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." [2 Timothy 4:8]

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ya and? Paul has to wait like all of us do.
He will come with Christ at the last day and be Raised here

But

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every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1 Corinthians 15:23).

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ya and?

The English word “coming” in the Greek is “parousia” “&#960;&#945;&#961;&#959;&#965;&#963;&#8055;&#945;” and means “presence, the advent, the coming, the arrival, the future visible return of JESUS from Heaven to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the Kingdom of GOD” [Strong's Concordance] [See Matthew 24:37 and compare to Luke 17:26,30].

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right....that happens at the last day
and it happens here on earth, not in heaven

JESUS CHRIST is even right now physically in Heaven, in the Most Holy Place, before the Ark of His Testament, as Hebrews, Revelation, Leviticus 16 and Daniel all reveal,

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agreed...

and when the work there is Finished, He shall come out without sin unto salvation with every angel in heaven...

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agreed again.
but the Saints who were men and women on earth, are the same.
at flesh death they become angels in heaven,
and come here with Him at His Coming

Leuko Petra said:

For a proper understanding of the structure of Revelation 12, please see the following link:

JESUS In Book Of Daniel - The Biblical TRUTH

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u did not even try to address the fact that Rev12 says
there are men in heaven and they got their through death

...and as for the "brethren" portion, we have become part of the Family of Heaven...

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Rev19 and 22 are pretty strait forward.you gotta really twist stuff to deny that the angel was an Israelite

...and therefore those which are sinless in heaven, are our brethren, angels and unfallen beings, as they are children of their Heavenly Father, so we [Matthew 5:45; Ephesians 4:6] and thus are "brethren" ["...all ye are brethren." Matthew 23:8], even being part of the "one fold, [and] one shepherd" of all His, for He had left the 99 above to come and seek and save the 1 [us, this world, which was lost]...

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there ya go again

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: Revelation 1:1

"...of the angel which shewed me these things..." [Revelation 22:28]

"...I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets..." [Revelation 22:9]

There are no dead in Heaven, only living..

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flesh and blood is not the end

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Matthew 22:32

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. Mark 12:27

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keep reading... ABRAHAM and his kin are there, ALIVE

...and those which are "dead in Christ" are "alive unto Him",

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yep

thus sleepeth here on/in the earth...

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yep

knowing nothing,

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well, their dead bodies care nothing for the world
but their spirit does in heaven...intact

returned unto Dust [Gen 3:19; Psalms 104:29], awaiting for Him to call them up and to awake.

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figuratively sure....
but literally, their dead flesh body is turning to dust
while their spirit is in heaven waiting to return at the last day with the Lord and be raised here

O Brother Where Art Thou: Tommy - YouTube
Soul sleep or not Tommy's not gonna have to worry about it. Sold his soul cause he wasn't using it much.

George95 said:

My mother believes this, and I wanted to hear everyone's thoughts.

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Daniel the prophet waits for the resurrection in the end times, so I to will wait for that resurrection.

The resurrection of the body and the intermediate state are not mutually exclusive, though Scripture places far greater emphasis on the former, and barely touches upon the latter.

That said, we trust in the mercies of God.

God alone is Judge, and it's not for us to say who is in and who is out, but rather to trust in the mercies and kindness of the God who sent us our Lord Jesus Christ, who was crucified, dead, and buried and who rose again on the third day.

-CryptoLutheran

MercyandFaith said:

I think a person's method of death has nothing to do with their eternal destination.

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What about abortion?

Jig said:

What about abortion?

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What about it? If an infant is aborted it does not necessarily ensure it's salvation. If it did, then sincere Christians ought to be out there demanding the abortion of all babies so that their salvation would be effected and they would be prevented from coming to life and becoming lost sinners who end up in the Lake of Fire.

The fact is that the scriptures are quite silent regarding the eternal destiny of those people who die, for various reasons, prior to their physical birth. We do know from John 3 that Jesus Himself stated that you must be born of the flesh and of the Spirit to have eternal life. Those who are not born of the flesh cannot be born of the Spirit.

bbbbbbb said:

What about it? If an infant is aborted it does not necessarily ensure it's salvation. If it did, then sincere Christians ought to be out there demanding the abortion of all babies so that their salvation would be effected and they would be prevented from coming to life and becoming lost sinners who end up in the Lake of Fire.

The fact is that the scriptures are quite silent regarding the eternal destiny of those people who die, for various reasons, prior to their physical birth. We do know from John 3 that Jesus Himself stated that you must be born of the flesh and of the Spirit to have eternal life. Those who are not born of the flesh cannot be born of the Spirit.

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Whoa, hold up there fast draw. I specifically wanted to know what MercyandFaith had to say about those who are murdered by abortion. You responded as if I thought aborted babies got a free ticket to heaven, I never said that. However, based on what MercyandFaith said, I wanted to see if their theology was consistant when it came to fetuses. From my experience people are not consistent in this area.