The "Olam Haba/World to Come"

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Nathan Ethan

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So the question would naturally arise: "How does YHWH determine who will obtain these things, and exactly how are these people qualified in YHWH's eyes to have obtained them?"

If this is your main question, maybe the premise this is built on shouldnt be the focus to the extent of neglecting the main question, since it is really about salvation and God granting the blessings of paradise, rather than about the millennium and the post-millennial age, fascinating though those subjects are.

Yes. A discussion of deliverance and YHWH granting certain blessings cannot be avoided if we look at the Olam Haba. They are inseparable. This also involves discussing "age-abiding life", as mentioned in Dan. xii:

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to age-abiding life, but the others to disgrace and age-abiding contempt. Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars, to the ages of ages."
 
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A discussion of deliverance and YHWH granting certain blessings cannot be avoided if we look at the Olam Haba. They are inseparable. This also involves discussing "age-abiding life", as mentioned in Dan. xii:

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to age-abiding life, but the others to disgrace and age-abiding contempt. Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars, to the ages of ages."
Good analysis - and that'd also go with the concept of the Lord giving rewards in the time to come that will vary from person to person, if considering what Messiah said repeatedly...
 
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Nathan Ethan

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Gxg (G²);63578878 said:
Good analysis - and that'd also go with the concept of the Lord giving rewards in the time to come that will vary from person to person, if considering what Messiah said repeatedly...

Exactly. There is a LOT of teachings about reward and loss in the Messianic Age and beyond. Sadly, although these teachings are a major theme of the Scriptures, they are neglected by most Messianic Jews and Christians alike.

You have such a kind spirit brother, and I enjoy all of your posts. Would you like to discuss this theme with me? I would love to share what I know and I would welcome your insights.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Gxg (G²)
Good analysis - and that'd also go with the concept of the Lord giving rewards in the time to come that will vary from person to person, if considering what Messiah said repeatedly...
Exactly. There is a LOT of teachings about reward and loss in the Messianic Age and beyond. Sadly, although these teachings are a major theme of the Scriptures, they are neglected by most Messianic Jews and Christians alike.

You have such a kind spirit brother, and I enjoy all of your posts. Would you like to discuss this theme with me? I would love to share what I know and I would welcome your insights.
May I ask what Messianic Age you are referring to? Thanks



.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by ChavaK
What passages in the Tanach do you see representing a "messianic age" and "new heavens/new earth"?
:)
Good, valid and reasonable question, I wonder too.

I'll kick back and listen to whatever responses there are.
I guess I will too............



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Nathan Ethan

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May I ask what Messianic Age you are referring to? Thanks

The 1,000 year reign of Messiah or "millennium", described in Rev. xx and many other places. Also referred to as "the age to come" and "that age" and many similar phrases in the Scriptures.

"The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection. (Lk. xx)

"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." (Rev. xx)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
May I ask what Messianic Age you are referring to? Thanks
The 1,000 year reign of Messiah or "millennium", described in Rev. xx and many other places.
Also referred to as "the age to come" and "that age" and many similar phrases in the Scriptures.
Is that how the Jews of today view it? :groupray:



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Nathan Ethan

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Is that how the Jews of today view it? :groupray:
.

My understanding is that most Jews do not accept the New Testament as Scripture, so those passages I quoted are probably meaningless to them.

I believe the consensus among most Jews today is that there will be a "Messianic Age" in the future, with Maschiach Ben David reigning as king over Israel and the nations.

I believe there are some who frequent this forum. Maybe they will chime in and elaborate on it. I welcome any corrections from them if I have misunderstood any of the Jewish beliefs.
 
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Exactly. There is a LOT of teachings about reward and loss in the Messianic Age and beyond. Sadly, although these teachings are a major theme of the Scriptures, they are neglected by most Messianic Jews and Christians alike.
So true - although the reasons behind why there is neglect on those things makes a world of difference...

You have such a kind spirit brother, and I enjoy all of your posts.
Glad to know they bless you and thanks for the kind words/encouragement :)

Would you like to discuss this theme with me? I would love to share what I know and I would welcome your insights
Whatever insights you may have, by all means would love to hear :)
 
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Nathan Ethan

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Glad you are back. I have been anxiously waiting on your return my brother. I look forward to our discussion.

There are so many wonderful teachings about the Olam Haba, and so many themes of Scripture that are interwoven with the subject. I would like to start with discussing the "age to come" aka the "Millenium" or the future 1,000 year reign of Messiah on this present Earth.


"Y'shua said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like messengers, and are sons of Elohim, being sons of the resurrection." (Lk. xx. 34-36)

There are several teachings in this passage of Scripture:
1. "This age" refers to the current age that we are living in, where marriage exists.
2. The 1,000 year reign of Messiah (c.f. Rev. xx) is referred to as "that age" by Y'shua in Luke xx.
3. Some people will be "considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead".
4. Although not directly stated by Messiah in this passage, it is implied by Him that not all humans (dead or alive) will be "considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead".
5. Marriage will not exist among those "considered worthy to obtain that age".
6. Those that attain "that age" will be like the messengers/angels.
7. Those that attain "that age" cannot die any more.
8. Those that attain the resurrection in "that age" are acknowledged as being the "sons of Elohim".

Would you consider these points to be valid and plain teachings of Messiah? Which of these teachings would you like to focus on first?
 
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Glad you are back. I have been anxiously waiting on your return my brother. I look forward to our discussion.

There are so many wonderful teachings about the Olam Haba, and so many themes of Scripture that are interwoven with the subject. I would like to start with discussing the "age to come" aka the "Millenium" or the future 1,000 year reign of Messiah on this present Earth.


"Y'shua said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like messengers, and are sons of Elohim, being sons of the resurrection." (Lk. xx. 34-36)

There are several teachings in this passage of Scripture:
1. "This age" refers to the current age that we are living in, where marriage exists.
2. The 1,000 year reign of Messiah (c.f. Rev. xx) is referred to as "that age" by Y'shua in Luke xx.
3. Some people will be "considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead".
4. Although not directly stated by Messiah in this passage, it is implied by Him that not all humans (dead or alive) will be "considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead".
5. Marriage will not exist among those "considered worthy to obtain that age".
6. Those that attain "that age" will be like the messengers/angels.
7. Those that attain "that age" cannot die any more.
8. Those that attain the resurrection in "that age" are acknowledged as being the "sons of Elohim".

Would you consider these points to be valid and plain teachings of Messiah? Which of these teachings would you like to focus on first?
Regarding the list you noted, I'd say that the only one which I'd say may not be the case is #5 - as I don't see where in the age to come believers will not continue to become married.

But on the rest of those things mentioned, I think it's a good summary.
 
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Nathan Ethan

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Gxg (G²);63620452 said:
Regarding the list you noted, I'd say that the only one which I'd say may not be the case is #5 - as I don't see where in the age to come believers will not continue to become married.

But on the rest of those things mentioned, I think it's a good summary.

Marriage will indeed continue on the Earth during the Millenial reign of Messiah, just not among those that are resurrected from the dead that reign with Him.
 
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Marriage will indeed continue on the Earth during the Millenial reign of Messiah, just not among those that are resurrected from the dead that reign with Him.
That'd be something I'd still say is in need of further addressment. Some of this was shared more in-depth elsewhere, as seen in #31
Matthew 22:30
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Mark 12:25
When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Luke 20:35
But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage
Those scriptures have been debated often when it comes to understanding the entirety of scripture and what Christ said on the issue of marriage. I agree with others who've often noted that not all stages shown in Genesis were ever fully reflective of how God meant things to be...in the same manner that seasons of life occur.

The scriptures coming immediately to mind are the following:


Mark 12:18-26
Marriage at the Resurrection
18Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 19"Teacher," they said, "Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and have children for his brother. 20Now there were seven brothers. The first one married and died without leaving any children. 21The second one married the widow, but he also died, leaving no child. It was the same with the third. 22In fact, none of the seven left any children. Last of all, the woman died too. 23At the resurrection[a] whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?"
24Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? 25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 26Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?
Luke 20:34-36
34Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.
Other versions of the instance are in Matthew 22:23-33.
With the Luke version, that one seems to be much more direct on the issue.....and for another description of "that age", one can go to Acts 4:2 and I Peter 1:3.

And on the issue, it goes without saying (IMHO) that what life will be like after the resurrection is far beyond our ability to understand or imagine fully (Isaiah 64:4, I Corinthians 2:9, etc)----so I want to be careful as to avoid making formula out of anything where full details are not given. Some of my thoughs are that "being like the angels in heaven" means living without an exclusive lifelong marriage commitment to one person. With Jesus' statement, it doesn't necessarily mean that people won't recognize their partners in the coming kingdom...as our relationships in this life are limited by time/sin and death.....and surely people will know their loved ones in heaven ( Matthew 8:11, Luke 9:30-33). It seems that Jesus' statement deals with how God's new order will not be an extension of this life and that the same physical/natural rules will not apply in all instances as here/before.......and that the joy/love of close relationships in heaven will be more rather than less than it is here on the Earth.

Jesus' reference to the "power of God" suggest that God is able to establish relationships of even deeper friendship, joy, and love in the life to come....for although God has not revealed anything more beyond this, what we do know is that the Word declares that the eternal glories awaiting the redeemed will be more splendid than anyone can begin to ask or think (I Corinthians 2:9, Ephesians 3:20). For if we can imagine it, God can go beyond it.

I agree with others who say that Jesus' comment in verse 25 was not intended to be the final word on marriage in heaven....as who knows if something far grander than the way marriage was set up before is to come instead. Some of it I've discussed before when it came to the possibility that Jesus's words on marriage were more so about correcting the idea of marriage the Sadducees had in mind where it was focused on contracts/unfaithfulness rather than marriage the way that God saw] it.

And with Jesus's answer, it was more so a refusal to answer the Sadducees' riddle/fall into their trap..as their real question was not about marriage as much as it was about the doctrine of the resurrection--which they already were against. They tried to trap him theologically because they assumed that those believing in a resurrection life think it is like the present life fully....suggesting that a woman who has been married more than once will be found guilty of incest after the resurrection...and hoping to show the idea of the resurrection absurd. But their error flowed from their lack of knowledge, of course, on the Power of God to create a much more wonderful than anyone can now imagine.

And as Jesus told them, to know what heaven will be like is not as important as to know God's power (I Corinthians 15, Philippians 3:5-11).

I don't see any other way to renconcile what Christ said on marriage in the beginning - from Matthew 19 onto the rest of the OT - and what is said in the future if the Lord meant what He said when He blessed the Institution of Marriage. Of course, there's one possible way of renconciling the permanence of marriage with what CHrist said if considering things from the perspective of SEASONS - systems instituted for a time.

If marriage was not meant to be a pernmanent fixture----as much as it may seem odd, it can make sense in a myriad of ways. My friends and I used to battle on the issue all the time---with one of my bros always saying that there'd be none of the things we experience in the earthly realm with marriage like the joy of passionate sex or companionship...as in his view, that's only to reflect the relationship we..the church.. have/will consumate fully with Christ in the Heavens and the Wedding Banquet according to Ephesians 5:22-33, Matthew 22:1-14 and Revelation 19:6-8 ..and though marriage/man not being alone was something God said was "good" in perfection (Genesis 2:19-24), there's a view that holds to the concept of man at that time not being made complete....beliving that the Perfection Account was an issue of man being glorified rather than being fulfilled---with that being interupted, the image of God being tarnished...and Christ restoring the process/making it even more wonderful.

In example, consider what was said before when the Bible shows man on a DIET with eating trees/food that God had outlined. As the Bible already makes clear that man was not made immortal/was in a process of going toward immortality, as seen in Genesis 3 when man is forbidden to eat from the Tree of Life.

On the issue of things not being "fixed"/adjusments being made, Connecting that all back with the theory behind temporary marriage, man having a diet to sustain him for the time he had on the EARTH WOULD MAKE SENSE.....as there were still things missing that God took note of---when the Lord said, "Its not good for man to be alone".....and according to the view, as man was in a process of transformation, at that time having a mate was necessary....if for no other reason, for a time of multiplying/being fruitful ( Genesis 5:2-4 ) and having the ability to reflect the Lord fully ( Genesis 5:1-3 )

God said in Malachi 2:10-16 and other passages ( Proverbs 2:17, Ezekiel 16:8-14, Matthew 19:1-12, etc) that marriage is a Divine covenant, a three-way relationship between a couple and the Lord, that was meant to glorify Him by producing GODLY OFFSPRING.......in line with Gods original mandate to man to be fruitful/multiply in Genesis 1:26-31. Jude 1:13-15 echoes the same thought when it comes to the prophesy that many in God's name would come forth after Him----an expansion of God's Heart to have a LARGE FAMILY of others who'd reflect him......children of faith.

The motif of "being fruitful and multiplying" recurs throughout Genesis with association with Divine Blessing (Genesis 9:1-7, Genesis 17:20, Genesis 28:3, Genesis 35:11, Genesis 48:4, ec)==serving as the basis for the worldview that raising Godly Children is apart of God's creation for mankind.....as his plan was that the whole earth be populated by those who know Him/serve wisely as his vice-regents or representives. And with the charge to "subdue the earth/have dominion", the idea is that man/woman are to make the earth's resources beneficial for themselves, which implies that they would investigate/develop Earth's resources to make them useful for human beings generally, responsibily using things with the same sense of care that God has toward the whole of his creation (Psalm 8, Genesis 2). And "Dominion/Subdue" mandate provides the the foundation for wise/scientific and technological development and reflecting God by creating as He does.

With that in mind, one factor to consider is that being fruitful/multiplying does not necessarily mean that it was meant to be done FOR ALL TIME----as its possible for a LIMIT on multiplication occurring once something has been effectively filled....with enough made to subdue to it according to God's designs. Hence, why its possible that even in the Creation Account God could have made marriage then with a starting/ending point somewhere........with the time of its institution being something that would reflect his heart/relationship with man and then, once being fulfilled at one stage, opening up the door to go into another phase/ something far more grand than can be imagined.

And in the time Adam had to be fruitful/multiply, He had to be given SOMETHING to eat in the meantime before he went up..
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I am correctly understanding that you wrote all of this to kind of say that you think resurrected people will marry and procreate, even though there is no Scripture that teaches this? I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please clarify what you intended to sa.
Nathan,

As I said before, I see no scripture teaching that marriage will NOT occur in any way among those who are resurrected - what is noted is that marriage as we know it will not be the exact same as it'll be in the time to come - and knowing what Christ said when saying the resurrected will be like the angels/become like the sons of God is imperative on that. It isn't enough to say "They will neither marry nor be given in marriage" to make a sweeping claim that there is no union with others on any level when the context was never on that (thus, reading more into scripture than what's present and in the process not really addressing scripture fully).

In the event I did not express it clearly enough, I recommend one article to investigate here at Will we be married in Heaven? - National


We already have it where God the Father already noted to His people his intent behind marriage in Malachai 3 - to have Godly Offspring....and we already know that God meant what He said when saying "The Two Shall Become One"....in Genesis 3, never seeming to reverse that in general. When God first created people, He made them male and female. (Genesis 1:27) He saw that what He had done was very good. (Genesis 1:31) - and if it is very good, why should it not continue after death? Unless it was the case that marriage was something he meant for a season to simply fill the Earth (which is a possibility I was arguing for earlier), I don't see why it has to be the case that marriage will cease in the reign of Christ for eternity.

Jesus said, "They are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore, God has joined together, let no one put asunder." (Matthew 19:6, Mark 10:9) God Himself said, "It is not good that the man should be alone." (Genesis 2:18) "The Lord, the God of Israel, says that He hates putting away." (Malachi 2:16) If He hates putting away, why would He put away every wife and husband from each other by death?

There was a specific type of marriage that Yeshua had in mind when it came to his rebuke to the Saducees and speaking of the resurrected. Things would never be exactly the same as it was on the earth..and the ways marriage was treated flippantly in the OT till the time of Christ, many had a perverse view of marriage anyhow. There was a specific type of marriage that Yeshua had in mind when it came to his rebuke to the people. Things would never be exactly the same as it was on the earth..and the ways marriage was treated flippantly in the OT till the time of Christ, many had a perverse view of marriage anyhow.

When Jesus said there will be no marriage in heaven, I believe he was referring to a very specific definition of marriage in which, according to Jewish law, which still holds for Orthodox Jews:
1, A man could divorce a woman for any reason or no reason, and still be within the bounds of ethics and morality

2. A woman could not divorce her husband. So if he left her without divorcing her, she could not marry another man.

3. Adultery was something contingent on the marital status of the woman, and not of the man. A married man could consort with a harlot if he wished and would not be guilty of adultery.​

Essentially, marriage in the halakhic sense meant meant that the man possessed (owned) his wife as property. This is the kind of marriage you would not have in heaven. Within Jewish law, there was allowance for men to divorce their wives for any reason, and it did not allow women to divorce their husbands. And this law is almost identical in orthodox Judaism as well as in Islam today. Divorce is something that men do to women, and not vice versa....for if wives are their husbands’ property, then it is up to the husband to release (or not release) his property - and property does not release its owner.

When the Saduccees asked their question regarding the woman who married seven brothers, each dying after the others was - and tried to trap Jesus by asking whose property will she be in the afterlife, Jesus noted plainly that his answer was - no one's. Per the definition on marriage in the minds of the audience, there would be no marriage in the afterlife...not their kind of marriage. As they tried to trap Him, the Lord Jesus exposes the problem. They assumed the resurrection will be a mere resuscitation, a return to bodily life as we currently experience it - but He made clear it'd be different


In the future, the resurrected will be like the angels in the afterlife.

Do angels marry in the same manner that we do on Earth? No. Do they exist in THE SAME manner that we do on Earth? Of course not - but that doesn't mean we can make sweeping claims of all aspects of their culture since we don't know fully - and there's nothing saying they don't have something equivalent to marriage - just as it'd be off to assume that being like the angels means that they cannot reproduce/have physical being, even though that happened with angels showing ability to mate per Genesis 6 with the Fallen Ones choosing to mix with mankind outside of God's design.


As said elsewhere, there are many valid arguments I've heard that seemed to be very intriguing on the issue of what marriage will look like in Heaven, one from an article one can look up online, under the name of "Marriage In Heaven << What the Bible says "()

As said there for reference (brief excerpt):



What Kind of Marriage Does It Mean?
Now let us consider what this passage actually means. Note that marrying and being given in marriage do not refer to the married state, but only to the wedding itself. The question focused on a woman who had married seven times for apparently worldly reasons, with no evidence of having formed a spiritual bond with any of her husbands. The Sadducees were not talking about a true marriage, but merely about a legal ritual--an outward coupling without the inner meaning. The Lord answered their question in terms of their own idea of marriage, which was quite different than ours is today. In those days, the marriage contract was generally made between the husband and the father of the bride. The bride was seldom given any say in the matter. Women were treated almost like property. To be "given" in marriage meant they could be given by parents to an unknown man (Genesis 24, 21:21), or given as a reward. (Judges 1:12, 1 Sam 17:25) They could be bought and sold, (Genesis. 29:20, Ruth 4:10, Hosea 3:2, 12:12) or even kidnapped. (Judges 21:21-23) This is kind of worldly coupling the Lord was referring to when He said, "The children of this age marry and are given in marriage." (Luke 20:34) Perhaps we should take the saying "In the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage," to mean, "In heaven there is no buying and selling of women and legal contracting such as you are used to."

Did They Really Want to Know?

The Sadducees were not actually interested in learning about marriage after death. They did not even believe in the possibility of life after death. All they wanted was to discredit the Lord's teaching about life after death.

Of course, others may disagree in light of how marriage on this Earth points to/mirrors the reality of what our Marriage to the Lord is to be like.....and on many things, I can definately see validity. Where I stand, Male and Female will continue ( Isa. 43:6-7 ) and Rev. 21:5 tells us that "He who sits on the throne will make "ALL THINGS NEW"...with Jer. 31:22 giving a glimpse of what this "new creation" will be like since it involves both a man and a woman.[/COLOR]

IGod noted in Genesis 2 that it wasn't good for man to BE alone...and the entire purpose of being fruitful and multiplying required one to have a mate. Unless God's plan/statements in Eden were inferior to what will happen in the future. Jesus referenced the issue in Matthew 19:1-12 when it came to his making clear that God hated dicorce and that God desired for couples to stay together for life.

Bible never says that there is no such things as heavenly forms of union. Marriage on the earth isn't translated as the same in heaven, as that'd be like saying one will not have close friendship or relationship with the person who was their spouse on the earth or that people won't recognize others. Marriage is a Sacrament, or Holy Mystery, so when it is sanctified by Christ's Church and a man and woman are bound together it becomes eternal, just as the marriage between Christ and The Church is eternal.

That isn't to mean there will be intercourse in heaven, or that the relationship is just as it is on Earth. There is a difference, a bond of love and one-ness in Heaven that only begins here on Earth and will be perfected in Heaven, just as we do with our relationship with God here on Earth. The principle behind marriage as it concerns the relationship itself not ending because of something as trivial as death must be remembered.


And we still have the reality of what Revelation discusses when it comes to children born in the age to come.​
 
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